Sale of the Year - New Mutants #98 CGC 9.9 for $12,250 5 5

[Foolkiller]

Fact: CGC's grading is subjective.

 

Fact: CGC STATES that grading is subjective on the label of every single book it grades.

 

Fact: Any random book on any random day can receive a (SLIGHTLY) different grade than it received on another random day, because of the two facts above. This fact is demonstrated by the countless examples that have obtained a different grade on a different day.

 

Not sure about the rest of the statements, but each of these are true.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have to think there's some actual objective truth in the superior condition of most 9.9s and 10.0s just based upon my experience with their grading of books below that level, but I don't own any Mints, so I can't really say--and I'm not sure anyone else crapping on CGC's Mint grade have empirical evidence to make their claims, either.

 

 

That's a sound analysis for ya....

 

Empirical evidence, exhibit A: Spiderman #5, previously graded 9.6, deslabbed, sent back through the grading process...having nothing done to it...receives a 9.8. Book is exactly the same book that went through the first time. The only difference? The opinions of the graders on that day.

 

Empirical evidence, Exhibit B: New Mutants #98, out of my personal collection. Sent in in a lot of 8 copies at a 9.8 pre-screen. 7 pass, one rejected. Rejected copy sent back in at a 9.8 pre-screen, having had absolutely nothing done to it...it passes, and receives a 9.8 grade.

 

Same book. Same exact condition.

 

Do you want more examples? There are hundreds, if not thousands by this point.

 

Very sound analysis, although obviously I didn't present it in this thread and since you joined long after I went through my intense CGC reverse-engineering phase on these boards, you probably haven't seen it. I've spent years here trying to reverse-engineer CGC's standards, but you can't do it without defect examination. I think you alluded to some analysis of defects allowable in the 9.9 and 10.0 grades...do you recall where you or others did it? Or do you mean you've examined the defects on 9.9s in person? I can do a keyword search for it myself if you saw others do it on the boards and you recall some titles and issues and if possible how long ago you saw it. There can be no discussion of whether or not a book is accurately graded without a defect inventory--to do so at all is to pull ideas completely out of your .

 

So, if a book gets a 9.6 on the first go around, and a 9.8 on the second...ONE of those grades was "inaccurate"...?

 

Rubbish. Provided the book is consistent with all other books in the same general state of condition, then whether the book gets a 9.6 or a 9.4....or an 8.0 or 7.5....or a 5.0 or 4.5....the book IS accurately graded.

 

Doing a "defect inventory" is utterly meaningless when discussing FINE points of grading, because the exact same defect(s) on a different day to a different grader can and does have a different impact on the grade assigned to that book!

 

Right now, the only two people that should be talking about the Amazing Spider-Man #5 or the New Mutants #98 and the merits of their grades are the people who have had the books in hand and know what the defects are.

 

That's absolutely absurd.

 

What percentage of books do you estimate CGC misgrades? 10%? 50%? 90%? If they misgrade 30% of the time, is there any value in knowing that a book has a 70% probability of being accurately graded?

 

ZERO PERCENT.

 

Grading "in between" is SUBJECTIVE. The SAME book with the SAME flaws on TWO DIFFERENT DAYS can get TWO different grades, and, since both represent OPINIONS, they are BOTH correct!

 

I'll tell you what....since I'm a big believer in "nothing is absolute:", I'll say CGC has "screwed up" and obviously misgraded...relative to all the other books in comparable states of condition....less than 1/10% of the time.

 

Anything else falls under "subjective."

 

There is no such thing as "this book is in this grade, forever and ever, Amen."

[The Question?]

 

The REALITY is...comic book grading is ONLY "subjective" at the margins, and no where else (at least it should not be) This is of course because there ARE solid, and substantial, grading parameters that MUST be met, and adhered to, otherwise, what's the point?

 

So, I do not accept for a infinitesimal moment, that grading is subjective across the board. If you believe that, you most assuredly cannot grade.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Maybe the buyer will DE-slab the book and send it in hopeing for a 10!

 

As I sit here in the Mile High city and ponder the finer points of CGC as I nibble on sopapillas at Casa Bonita pounding on my Black Berry...

 

Wait....Cartman?

 

Is that you...?

 

All valid points regarding "re-submitting" a book. What people have failed to mention is that there is an equal possibility that re-submitting a 9.6 AS #5 will come back a 9.4, not necessarily a higher grade of 9.8. Given the theory of exponential value (I described this in a previous post)...

 

This is a given. We don't need to reinvent the wheel every time we discuss these things.

 

If you have a high grade, high value comic, you risk a substantial amount of money "cracking" the case and re-submitting. Thus the reason as to why I won't be re-submitting the 9.9 in hopes of a 10.

 

And, yes, if a comic is cheap enough, you can keep re-submitting your book in the hopes that someday a grader will award it the higher grade. Given the odds on New Mutants #98, there are approximately 400 -- okay, 396, just so we're exact and don't cause Senor Amadeus to suffer a stroke

 

 

God is, after all, in the details...

 

But you would have been okay sliding that one by... (thumbs u

 

 

-- 9.8's available for re-submission. Assuming the 9.9 is no better than the 9.8s,

 

This is the wrong assumption to make.

 

There are WEAK 9.8s.

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s.

 

As a total guess, I would imagine there are maybe 10-20 STRONG 9.8s that could rival an average 9.9. Since I have not seen your book in person, it's not possible for me to tell if it is a weak, average, or strong 9.9.

 

and I have yet to capitulate to that fact, then you have a 1 in 400 shot at getting a 9.9. 400 submissions x $30 CGC submission fee = $12,000. If you add the price of the book ($250), you now have $12,250. Where have I heard this number before? God, ain't the vagaries of the marketplace a funny thing?

 

Well, sure, when you make them up to "fit" your argument.

 

 

Try again.

 

God bless Capitalism and the Invisible Hand. Whoever gets the next 9.9, please email me and I'll buy you a beer. Either by actual $$$ or via the laws of probability (dumb luck), you'll have earned your 9.9. Oh, and if you re-submit 400 times, pray to God the nay-sayers are right about your 9.8 having "virtually no difference" from the 9.9, or your battle is lost before you lick the stamp.

 

Brian (AKA Boston Corbett)

 

P.S. Yes, yes, yes... the CGC fee is anywhere between $17/25 + shipping and 2.5% of the book's FMV. "About" $30. About. No need for detailed rebuttal on how to make the CGC submission process cheaper by haggling, theft, sneakery, sleeping with a CGC grader, etc.

 

Let's try not to be silly, shall we? Intelligent people having a rational discussion can accept things as "given", especially when they bear no direct relevance to the topic at hand.

 

(thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The REALITY is...comic book grading is ONLY "subjective" at the margins, and no where else (at least it should not be) This is of course because there ARE solid, and substantial, grading parameters that MUST be met, and adhered to, otherwise, what's the point?

 

So, I don't not accept for a infinitesimal moment, that grading is subjective across the board. If you believe that, you most assuredly cannot grade.

 

Yup, that's pretty much what I said, too.

 

[t3quila]

I can't believe I ignored this thread for so long, never thought discussion about moderns could be interesting.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Nothing to see here, move along....

 

[NewWorldOrder]

I think saying all Grading is subjective is very wrong.

 

Example:

 

3.0 to 3.5= subjective

 

5.0 to 5.5=subjective

 

6.0 to 6.5=subjective

 

7.0 to 8.0=not subjective

 

9.4 to 9.6=not subjective

 

9.6 to 9.8=can be subjective, however I see the difference if the book is graded properly.

 

Honestly I like to think that the .5 difference in grade range from .05 to 8.0 is very subjective, but from 8.5 to 9.8 is pretty cut and dry.

 

 

I think if the NM #98 was cracked out and resubbed it has a really good chance at coming back a 9.8 instread of a 9.9 just becuse from 9.8 to 9.9 is definitely subjective.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

I think if the NM #98 was cracked out and resubbed it has a really good chance at coming back a 9.8 instread of a 9.9 just becuse from 9.8 to 9.9 is definitely subjective.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

That is the essence of what I have said (hopefully not in vain) this entire thread....

 

 

[homerwannabee]

At the moment I would call paying $12,500 for a 9.9 New Mutants #98 a gamble.

Why is that, because a grader or two could fall by the wayside, and a much easier grader come along giving out 9.9's like there is no tommorow. Yes in 9 years only 1 9.9 New Mutants #98 has been given out during this companies existence, but here is a newsflash. 9 years is not a long time, and a lot can happen in a short period of time. Want proof? Check out the old numbers for Amazing Spider-man 230, and 301 in 9.8. For the longest time there was only 1 or 2 in census for ASM 230. In fact a couple of years ago it was at this number. Same goes for 301 as well. For the longest time there was less than 10 in census. Even after Spider-man 3 hit the theators. Now look at both of them. ASM 230 has 21 9.8's in census, and ASM 301 has over 39 of them. The value on both has dropped like a rock.

 

At the moment CGC does not give out many 9.9's, and 10's. I'll grant you that. But that is at the moment. You are depending your future on a company that is only 9 years old. Most fashion companies are older than 9 years for crying out loud. In 10 years we will have a much, much better picture of this company and the 9.9's it hands out.

 

Edited November 26, 2009 by homerwannabee

[MrBedrock]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

[greggy]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

[MrBedrock]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

 

Smarty pants.

 

But yes, you could call weak 9.8s "9.7"

 

And eventually....they will.

 

[NewWorldOrder]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

 

Smarty pants.

 

But yes, you could call weak 9.8s "9.7"

 

And eventually....they will.

 

 

Not weak books just weak GRADERS.

 

Once again you will never see 9.7 or 9.5, unless your that stupid company called Wizard.

[FlyingDonut]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

 

Smarty pants.

 

But yes, you could call weak 9.8s "9.7"

 

And eventually....they will.

 

 

Actually, they call weak 9.8s "Wizard First 9.5s"

[BucOne-migration]

 

 

Would like to know if all 3 graders came to a consensus of 9.9

[jimjum12]

At the moment I would call paying $12,500 for a 9.9 New Mutants #98 a gamble.

Why is that, because a grader or two could fall by the wayside, and a much easier grader come along giving out 9.9's like there is no tommorow. Yes in 9 years only 1 9.9 New Mutants #98 has been given out during this companies existence, but here is a newsflash. 9 years is not a long time, and a lot can happen in a short period of time. Want proof? Check out the old numbers for Amazing Spider-man 230, and 301 in 9.8. For the longest time there was only 1 or 2 in census for ASM 230. In fact a couple of years ago it was at this number. Same goes for 301 as well. For the longest time there was less than 10 in census. Even after Spider-man 3 hit the theators. Now look at both of them. ASM 230 has 21 9.8's in census, and ASM 301 has over 39 of them. The value on both has dropped like a rock.

 

At the moment CGC does not give out many 9.9's, and 10's. I'll grant you that. But that is at the moment. You are depending your future on a company that is only 9 years old. Most fashion companies are older than 9 years for crying out loud. In 10 years we will have a much, much better picture of this company and the 9.9's it hands out.

 

I was working at a comic shop on the side when New Mutants 98 came out. We had customers who went over their books with a fine tooth comb...rejecting books that they didn't consider perfect. We got our books from Diamond who packed the books in cases with what I considered a great degree of professionalism and care.There were usually a dozen or more "perfect" books in a given case. We were one of a dozen different shops in our region, all receiving similarly packaged product. Many of you I consider to be friends, and while paying a premium for 9.8 and above books from this time period is understandable (beautiful books then)....PLEASE don't invest huge amounts of your future retirement money on them. They are not rare...not even in 9.9. A couple hundred bucks maybe...but 13K ? As far as inconsistency goes with grading...from 9.8 to 9.9 is only a 1 % margin of error....that's exceptional in the real world. I doubt any of us are even THAT efficient in our daily endeavors. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

 

Smarty pants.

 

But yes, you could call weak 9.8s "9.7"

 

And eventually....they will.

 

 

Not weak books just weak GRADERS.

 

Once again you will never see 9.7 or 9.5, unless your that stupid company called Wizard.

 

 

When the 9.7s and 9.5s come out...ignore Wiztard, that has nothing to do with this....will you come back and say "ok, RMA was right"....?

 

 

(And whether it's a weak book, or weak graders, the end result is still the same.)

[NewWorldOrder]

There are WEAK 9.8s. 9.70?

 

There are AVERAGE 9.8s.

 

There are STRONG 9.8s. 9.85?

 

 

 

 

Smarty pants.

 

But yes, you could call weak 9.8s "9.7"

 

And eventually....they will.

 

 

Not weak books just weak GRADERS.

 

Once again you will never see 9.7 or 9.5, unless your that stupid company called Wizard.

 

 

When the 9.7s and 9.5s come out...ignore Wiztard, that has nothing to do with this....will you come back and say "ok, RMA was right"....?

 

 

(And whether it's a weak book, or weak graders, the end result is still the same.)

 

It doesn;t make sense to break down the grading scale anymore.

 

It's not going to happen.

 

The book is the same the end result is determined by the grader.

Edited November 26, 2009 by spiderman-on-tilt