So there are more TMNT #1`s in existent then Action 1 and Detective 27 combined?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Wasn't there some speculation that the print run of TMNT #1 was higher than 300?

 

 

I'm not understanding this post. What are you referring to?

[homerwannabee]

By the year 2020 there will be 100 copies of Action #1 slabbed, and 100 copies of Detective #27 slabbed. Some of the arguments here are not well thought out. For one, this argument. All the TMNT #1 buyers were collectors, and almost none were thrown out. OK, but when you look at the census, you see that 283 out of 3000 have been graded, and of those only 9 are graded 9.6 or higher. Hmm, so you have all these collectors smart enough to keep the comic, yet less than 10 percent were smart enough to grade this comic. Even though the comic in even decent condition will garner $1,000. Heck the median grade for these comics is 8.0. Strange that they all keep them yet no one takes super good care of them. An then the other side of the coin, you have all these comics from the 1930's. A lot of old blood has these comics, and you're telling me that these people will have reason to grade the comic? My guess is a good percentage do not plan on selling them, and are planning to hand them down to their kids who they expect to hold on to as well.

 

Soon this will not be an issue though. I fully expect CGC too be more, and more trusted to the point where a lot of these comics will come out of the woodwork in the next few years. Already this year alone we have had a few comics get graded by CGC. In 10 years I would be really, really surprised if 100 Action comics, and 100 detective comics are not graded.

[Tomega]

I have been told that even though TMNT #1 first print has a low print run of 3000 copies that it`s still more than the combined copies of Action 1-10 and Detective 27-37 combined that still exist. is this true? if it is how could comicbooks with gigantic print runs be so rare? Golden age keys than are a lot rarer than I thought if they make TMNT#1 look like a common modern.

 

I just cannot see how there are more TMNT #1's than Action 1-10 and TEC 27-37 combined. There had to be a print run somewhere in the millions for all those combined issues. If there was print run of 100,000 per issue, that is 2 million issues, if only .25 % of those were still around, that is 5,000 copies. In addition, there are over 600 graded Actions and TEC's combined.

[MR.COMICBOOK]

I have been told that even though TMNT #1 first print has a low print run of 3000 copies that it`s still more than the combined copies of Action 1-10 and Detective 27-37 combined that still exist. is this true? if it is how could comicbooks with gigantic print runs be so rare? Golden age keys than are a lot rarer than I thought if they make TMNT#1 look like a common modern.

 

I just cannot see how there are more TMNT #1's than Action 1-10 and TEC 27-37 combined. There had to be a print run somewhere in the millions for all those combined issues. If there was print run of 100,000 per issue, that is 2 million issues, if only .25 % of those were still around, that is 5,000 copies. In addition, there are over 600 graded Actions and TEC's combined.

600 hundred is still lower than 3000.

ok

maybe not combined but pretty close as we have found out.

[G.A.tor]

. An then the other side of the coin, you have all these comics from the 1930's. A lot of old blood has these comics, and you're telling me that these people will have reason to grade the comic? My guess is a good percentage do not plan on selling them, and are planning to hand them down to their kids who they expect to hold on to as well.

 

Soon this will not be an issue though. I fully expect CGC too be more, and more trusted to the point where a lot of these comics will come out of the woodwork in the next few years. Already this year alone we have had a few comics get graded by CGC. In 10 years I would be really, really surprised if 100 Action comics, and 100 detective comics are not graded.

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

[homerwannabee]

. An then the other side of the coin, you have all these comics from the 1930's. A lot of old blood has these comics, and you're telling me that these people will have reason to grade the comic? My guess is a good percentage do not plan on selling them, and are planning to hand them down to their kids who they expect to hold on to as well.

 

Soon this will not be an issue though. I fully expect CGC too be more, and more trusted to the point where a lot of these comics will come out of the woodwork in the next few years. Already this year alone we have had a few comics get graded by CGC. In 10 years I would be really, really surprised if 100 Action comics, and 100 detective comics are not graded.

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

 

Again in 10 years this will not be an argument as there will be 100 graded Action #1's in the CGC census.

[G.A.tor]

. An then the other side of the coin, you have all these comics from the 1930's. A lot of old blood has these comics, and you're telling me that these people will have reason to grade the comic? My guess is a good percentage do not plan on selling them, and are planning to hand them down to their kids who they expect to hold on to as well.

 

Soon this will not be an issue though. I fully expect CGC too be more, and more trusted to the point where a lot of these comics will come out of the woodwork in the next few years. Already this year alone we have had a few comics get graded by CGC. In 10 years I would be really, really surprised if 100 Action comics, and 100 detective comics are not graded.

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

 

Again in 10 years this will not be an argument as there will be 100 graded Action #1's in the CGC census.

I can certainly see another 2-3 copies a year being graded...I might concede an in between point (maybe 70 or so)... but, like you, I am just "guessing"...

number , in theory, could go down or skyrocket

[RockMyAmadeus]

OK, but when you look at the census, you see that 283 out of 3000 have been graded, and of those only 9 are graded 9.6 or higher. Hmm, so you have all these collectors smart enough to keep the comic, yet less than 10 percent were smart enough to grade this comic.

 

Homer has a point, but makes an error in assuming that every person who owns a 1st print wishes to get it graded and/or sell it. I have not graded my own copy, for several reasons, and I'm not alone.

[VintageComics]

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

 

I'd be willing to bet that there are people out there that own multiple, ungraded copies of Action #1 and I wouldn't think twice about laying that bet.

 

There are tons of great collections out there that are not graded for one reason or another.

 

 

[DiceX]

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

 

I'd be willing to bet that there are people out there that own multiple, ungraded copies of Action #1 and I wouldn't think twice about laying that bet.

 

There are tons of great collections out there that are not graded for one reason or another.

 

 

Actually there are tons of great collections out there that have not been touched in 30 years. People that used to collect but don't anymore. The books are forgotten among other items in their house or in their attic.

 

I guarantee you there are 300-500 AC1 and Tec27's out there. There are less than 100 that are known and make the rounds through active collector's hands, but there are a lot more that have not been touched in decades.

 

 

[G.A.tor]

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

 

I'd be willing to bet that there are people out there that own multiple, ungraded copies of Action #1 and I wouldn't think twice about laying that bet.

 

There are tons of great collections out there that are not graded for one reason or another.

 

 

Actually there are tons of great collections out there that have not been touched in 30 years. People that used to collect but don't anymore. The books are forgotten among other items in their house or in their attic.

 

I guarantee you there are 300-500 AC1 and Tec27's out there. There are less than 100 that are known and make the rounds through active collector's hands, but there are a lot more that have not been touched in decades.

 

naturally, that is the key to my supposition... the "known" or perceived copies...

 

unlikely we will ever know... and unlikely any speculation can be substantiated unless it is not speculation

[DiceX]

I have talked to a "lot" of the known old blood, and with only 3 exceptions, they have all had their action 1's graded... I mean, there are already 40 on the census, who do you think has had those 40 graded? mostly old schoolers are the ones that had the copies to begin with (thumbs u

 

I'd be willing to bet that there are people out there that own multiple, ungraded copies of Action #1 and I wouldn't think twice about laying that bet.

 

There are tons of great collections out there that are not graded for one reason or another.

 

 

Actually there are tons of great collections out there that have not been touched in 30 years. People that used to collect but don't anymore. The books are forgotten among other items in their house or in their attic.

 

I guarantee you there are 300-500 AC1 and Tec27's out there. There are less than 100 that are known and make the rounds through active collector's hands, but there are a lot more that have not been touched in decades.

 

naturally, that is the key to my supposition... the "known" or perceived copies...

 

unlikely we will ever know... and unlikely any speculation can be substantiated unless it is not speculation

 

I agree. Of those copies that nobody knows about, only a handful might ever make it back into the market. Unfortunately, even today, I'll bet there are copies of both being thrown out, due to lack of care or knowledge of what that box of magazines is worth that Great Grandpa kept in his attic for 60 years.

 

 

[tth2]

All the TMNT #1 buyers were collectors, and almost none were thrown out. OK, but when you look at the census, you see that 283 out of 3000 have been graded, and of those only 9 are graded 9.6 or higher. Hmm, so you have all these collectors smart enough to keep the comic, yet less than 10 percent were smart enough to grade this comic. Even though the comic in even decent condition will garner $1,000.

Not sure I understand your point here. In order to be a "smart" collector you have to slab a book that's in your collection if it's valuable? Even if you have no intention of selling it?

 

Heck the median grade for these comics is 8.0. Strange that they all keep them yet no one takes super good care of them.

TMNT #1 wasn't printed and distributed by some big company. It was a small, shoe string thing. My guess is that many of the copies that reached comic store shelves, or were sold from Eastman & Laird's car trunk, were never in NM grade at the time they were purchased.

 

Look at Cerebus, where the highest graded copies are only 9.4s, all from the creator's own files.

 

My guess is that between the printing process and the distribution process, most of these books were never in NM to begin with.

[TMNT]

To throw a little bit of perspective on the amount of TMNT #1s out there, keep in mind that while there were books available on store shelves, Eastman & Laird actually "destroyed" a number of copies to use the covers for promotional purposes. Also, that good old black cover really shows even the minutest of flaws so I would imagine alot of people didn't hang on to them, esp. with 2nd (and third, etc) prints coming out so soon after the 1st and looking identical to the first prints. Nothing to back that up, just my feeling from dealing inall of this issues print runs for a while now.

 

All of that said, I'm of the opinion that probably 10-20% of that original 3,000 print run has been lost.

[Mac Man]

Not to sound trite, but ultimately, what's the intent behind asking this question?

 

Is TMNT #1 more rare than Tec 27 and Action 1? [My paraphrase] "If it is how could comicbooks with gigantic print runs be so rare?" [OP's words]

 

Ultimately, I think the real question on the table here is whether or not we can look at TMNT as the next blue chip. Rick and I chatted a little about this over in the "AF 15 Club" thread over in the SA subforum w/ regards to AF 15. What I gathered from that discussion was you have the following characteristics that create the true blue chip book:

 

1. Low supply / Availability: This can be caused either by lower print runs (i.e. TMNT 1) or by other factors such as low initial collection and high use where kids read 'em and tossed 'em (i.e. Action 1 and Tec 27) and lower quality production materials causing loss of books in higher grades or altogether.

2. High Demand: Depending on what is "hot," movies and other pop culture movements can bring various IP into the forefront and stimulate desire, i.e. movie hype, death of a character getting headlines, etc.

3. Dissemination into the Cultural Consciousness: This is when a particular IP becomes ingrained in the forefront of pop culture and "earns a seat" in the mainstream culture to the point where even non-comic fans are familiar with the character, background, etc, to varying extents. The more ingrained, the longer term desire present, the more a part of pop culture this character (and therefore related issues) become.

 

The more a particular issue has of these characteristics, the more likely it seems that it will strengthen that particular issue's position as a blue chip book. Anyhow, sorry if I'm off the mark on this, but it just seems like we're really going in circles around the bigger issues of WHY is it important to know about the difference between the print runs and available issues of GA blue chips over a particular Copper/Modern Age comic.

 

 

[Bronty]

All the TMNT #1 buyers were collectors, and almost none were thrown out. OK, but when you look at the census, you see that 283 out of 3000 have been graded, and of those only 9 are graded 9.6 or higher. Hmm, so you have all these collectors smart enough to keep the comic, yet less than 10 percent were smart enough to grade this comic. Even though the comic in even decent condition will garner $1,000.

Not sure I understand your point here. In order to be a "smart" collector you have to slab a book that's in your collection if it's valuable? Even if you have no intention of selling it?

 

Heck the median grade for these comics is 8.0. Strange that they all keep them yet no one takes super good care of them.

TMNT #1 wasn't printed and distributed by some big company. It was a small, shoe string thing. My guess is that many of the copies that reached comic store shelves, or were sold from Eastman & Laird's car trunk, were never in NM grade at the time they were purchased.

 

Look at Cerebus, where the highest graded copies are only 9.4s, all from the creator's own files.

 

My guess is that between the printing process and the distribution process, most of these books were never in NM to begin with.

 

I would disagree with that... yes it was a small outfit but tmnt 1 was nicely printed. much more of a quality affair than cerebus 1. I'd bet most of the copies were nm to nm+ on the stands... but they probably didn't stay that way for long. Black cover, rounded binding that I suspect would crack easily with reading, odd size that's hard to store....

[mikephoen]

All the TMNT #1 buyers were collectors, and almost none were thrown out. OK, but when you look at the census, you see that 283 out of 3000 have been graded, and of those only 9 are graded 9.6 or higher. Hmm, so you have all these collectors smart enough to keep the comic, yet less than 10 percent were smart enough to grade this comic. Even though the comic in even decent condition will garner $1,000.

Not sure I understand your point here. In order to be a "smart" collector you have to slab a book that's in your collection if it's valuable? Even if you have no intention of selling it?

 

Heck the median grade for these comics is 8.0. Strange that they all keep them yet no one takes super good care of them.

TMNT #1 wasn't printed and distributed by some big company. It was a small, shoe string thing. My guess is that many of the copies that reached comic store shelves, or were sold from Eastman & Laird's car trunk, were never in NM grade at the time they were purchased.

 

Look at Cerebus, where the highest graded copies are only 9.4s, all from the creator's own files.

 

My guess is that between the printing process and the distribution process, most of these books were never in NM to begin with.

 

I would disagree with that... yes it was a small outfit but tmnt 1 was nicely printed. much more of a quality affair than cerebus 1. I'd bet most of the copies were nm to nm+ on the stands... but they probably didn't stay that way for long. Black cover, rounded binding that I suspect would crack easily with reading, odd size that's hard to store....

 

The odd size which didnt fit in standard bags and boards, or a lot of comic boxes probably has more to do with lack of uber-high grade copies than anything else.

 

[HouseofComics.Com]

I believe my copy was shipped to me in a manila envelope with maybe a really really thin piece of cardboard on both sides--like the kind of cardboard you might get in a shirt or something.

 

When I sold my copy way back in the day, I actually sold it with the original envelope. It was the only way I had to store something that size, just leave it in the envelope.

[rjrjr]

Soon this will not be an issue though. I fully expect CGC too be more, and more trusted to the point where a lot of these comics will come out of the woodwork in the next few years. Already this year alone we have had a few comics get graded by CGC. In 10 years I would be really, really surprised if 100 Action comics, and 100 detective comics are not graded.

 

I don't think there is a trust issue with CGC; it's a cost issue. If I'm a collector and have no plans to sell my comics, why would I spend the money to have my books slabbed?

 

What percentage of all comics are locked up in collections and are never sold? 50%? Higher?

 

What percentage of all comics has CGC slabbed? My guess is less than 1%. You may start approaching 5-10% of books when you start talking about key issues, but I'd wager no comic has more than 20% of the total supply (all the comics in collections, etc.) CGC slabbed.

 

Ron

 

[G.A.tor]

Soon this will not be an issue though. I fully expect CGC too be more, and more trusted to the point where a lot of these comics will come out of the woodwork in the next few years. Already this year alone we have had a few comics get graded by CGC. In 10 years I would be really, really surprised if 100 Action comics, and 100 detective comics are not graded.

 

I don't think there is a trust issue with CGC; it's a cost issue. If I'm a collector and have no plans to sell my comics, why would I spend the money to have my books slabbed?

 

Ron

for me, it is for the restoration check... I don't need the "grade" (I know how to grade) but I am not as thorough at resto checking as CGC is, and if you spend $500 or $5000 or $50000 etc on a comic (or have one that is "worth" that much) , the fee to cgc is worth the peace of mind (IMO)

 

that is why there are so many more Action 1 and tec 27s graded when compared to , say action 6 and tec 34... for the "peace of mind" (as many oldtimers bought books "old" time ago, and resto was not always disclosed or known, etc)