I dropped my soap in GrahamCrackers shower

[Primetime]

For those who don't know, which I'm assuming is all of you, I am the co-owner of Graham Crackers Comics and I'm the guy who made the call on not refunding a two year old purchase.

 

I'm fairly shocked by the wide range of responses to this situation, but wanted to publicly clarify how/why I came about my decision, be it right or wrong in each of yours eyes.

 

We try our best to treat customers exactly how we feel we should be treated. I try and respond to e-mails as quickly as humanly possible - we prioritize problems with orders to the top of the 'to do" list and try and be as forthcoming and as honest (without being insulting) with each customer we deal with.

 

We do NOT TRIM comics, nor have we ever. Does a trimmed comic slip past us, absolutely this can happen, can a restored book slip past, yes. If someone ends up getting one from us that was not noted - we will of course allow them to return it within a reasonable amount of time.

 

DAVID OAKLEY purchased an FF #49 from us on eBay listed as VF 8.0 2nd app. Silver Surfer for $100.99 on December 7th, of 2007.

 

I felt 2 years later, after David had tried to sell the comic himself and had no luck and recently got it CGC'ed to see if that would help - it was no longer within any kind of fair statue of limitations. Can you return any items that cost $100 2 years later? You ipod freezes up on you 2 years later will someone take it back? You discover a crack in your Halmiton Star Trek collectors plate that you bought that you never noticed - can you return it for a full refund? Evidently a LOT of you feel the dealers should carry the burden of risk entirely, even if it's for 20 years - they should stand behind any book they sell and hope that each of the customers they deal with is honest.

It's a fair opinion, and I try and do that with any and all of our regular customers.

 

DAVID OKALEY bought 1 comic from me in the past 2 years off of eBay. And he didn't stop buying because he felt he got ripped off on a trimmed book - he only just discovered this 2 years later.

 

I had no way of knowing this was still our book, or as someone else pointed out if he wanted to clean it up himself with the trim job, tried to sell it and that wasn't working out, nor do I have access to eBay listings which may or may not have listed the books as trimmed in the description. Again, most of these are MOST LIKELY not the case. Just as I would hope more people would assume a dealer would MOST LIKELY not intentionally sell a trimmed book and then seemingly delight in his tricking someone into buying that book - yet so many people jump straight to that false assumption.

 

Right or wrong, I was the one that made the call that 2 years was too long to be held responsible and decide you want a refund for a book that you haven't had any luck selling or hasn't increased in value as much as you had hopped.

 

Though If David Oakley would like to exchange it for something else on our site or stores for that dollar amount, we'd be happy to accommodate him.

 

--John Robinson

GRAHAM CRACKERS COMICS

16030 S. Lincoln Highway Suite #4

Plainfield, IL. 60586 USA

(815) 254-3410 <-- You can call and yell at me in person even!

www.grahamcrackers.com

twitter/gccomics

 

Very gracious of John to extend an exchange 2 years later

 

For the record, I purchased a raw, big dollar book from Jamie at San Diego Con '09. I got it CGC'd immediately and the book did come back PLOD. I contacted Jamie the following week after the con, and he offered an immediate, full refund. I opted to keep the book though and a healthy, price adjustment was agreed upon (thumbs u This was my first transaction with Jamie (although I've been collecting seriously since 1993) and it ended great for both of us...of course, the FF 49 is a $100 book and on a 2 year time frame, but having the option of exchanging for another book at this point is great

[BaltimoreLauren]

Though If David Oakley would like to exchange it for something else on our site or stores for that dollar amount, we'd be happy to accommodate him.

 

Did you offer this to David as an option when he first emailed or called you? I think this is a reasonable solution, but I'm not sure if you offered to him directly or if it was prompted by this thread.

 

Regardless of whether this thread spurred it, I think "reasonable" is putting it mildly, and accepting an exchange after two years is in "extremely gracious" territory.

 

I agree with this whole heartedly. A majority of retail or customer based placed will not take products back after such a long time lapse.

[bryan91]

Generous offer I think.

[AtlasFan]

Generous offer I think.

 

I disagree. I would be very dubious to accept another book as a substitute. If the seller sold a restored book as unrestored 2 years ago, why should anything be different now?

 

I guess "store credit" is better than nothing, but the seller still comes out on top -- he sold a restored ( i.e. WORTHLESS) book as unrestored and still benefited from the profit.

 

Where is the Justice?

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Stories like this just make we want to get out of the hobby entirely and move on to something else.

 

 

sigh.

 

Why? The end result favors the customer as much as possible.

 

Listen, if you've been in this hobby long enough, you'd bought at least one, if not multiple, restored books that were not disclosed to you as such. A small percentage was intentional; the by product of a dishonest dealer, but the majority was likely accidental. At worst, the fault lies in the fact that a dealer either 1). doesn't have the time to screen every book thoroughly himself, or 2). has to employ people without the pre-requisite skills to catch a well done resto job with great consistency.

 

The point is not that it happens, but how the dealer responds when it does.

 

I've recounted the story of how I bought a FF # 52 from Greg White that was a sure fire 9.4, if it wasn't for the well done CT that I only detected after I left the poorly lit room the Tampa convention was housed in. When I immediately returned to Greg's table that day and requested a refund, he told me he would offer me credit and take the book back. Keep in mind, I paid cash...$350 to be exact, just an hour earlier. Now, I like Greg, and will talk with him for a couple of minutes when I see him at a show...but there's no way I'll ever buy a high grade book from the man again.

 

In comparison to that story, the offer by GrahamCrackers to exchange the book two years after the fact is very generous indeed.

 

Even CGC, with all their expert eyes and resto checks, still gets one wrong on occasion. It happens. It's what happens afterward, how the situation is handled, that's more important.

 

 

[Foolkiller]

Stories like this just make we want to get out of the hobby entirely and move on to something else.

 

 

sigh.

 

Why? The end result favors the customer as much as possible.

 

Listen, if you've been in this hobby long enough, you'd bought at least one, if not multiple, restored books that were not disclosed to you as such. A small percentage was intentional; the by product of a dishonest dealer, but the majority was likely accidental. At worst, the fault lies in the fact that a dealer either 1). doesn't have the time to screen every book thoroughly himself, or 2). has to employ people without the pre-requisite skills to catch a well done resto job with great consistency.

 

The point is not that it happens, but how the dealer responds when it does.

 

I've recounted the story of how I bought a FF # 52 from Greg White that was a sure fire 9.4, if it wasn't for the well done CT that I only detected after I left the poorly lit room the Tampa convention was housed in. When I immediately returned to Greg's table that day and requested a refund, he told me he would offer me credit and take the book back. Keep in mind, I paid cash...$350 to be exact, just an hour earlier. Now, I like Greg, and will talk with him for a couple of minutes when I see him at a show...but there's no way I'll ever buy a high grade book from the man again.

 

In comparison to that story, the offer by GrahamCrackers to exchange the book two years after the fact is very generous indeed.

 

Even CGC, with all their expert eyes and resto checks, still gets one wrong on occasion. It happens. It's what happens afterward, how the situation is handled, that's more important.

 

 

All very, very good points.

[AtlasFan]

Stories like this just make we want to get out of the hobby entirely and move on to something else.

 

 

sigh.

 

I've recounted the story of how I bought a FF # 52 from Greg White that was a sure fire 9.4, if it wasn't for the well done CT that I only detected after I left the poorly lit room the Tampa convention was housed in. When I immediately returned to Greg's table that day and requested a refund, he told me he would offer me credit and take the book back. Keep in mind, I paid cash...$350 to be exact, just an hour earlier. Now, I like Greg, and will talk with him for a couple of minutes when I see him at a show...but there's no way I'll ever buy a high grade book from the man again.

 

 

Holy Moley...the gall of that man! I would have told him what he could do with his credit and then pizzed all over his long boxes...credit..INDEED!

[FlyingDonut]

Jesus, I just read this train wreck.

 

Marc Nathan is a very good friend of mine - and the innuendo in this thread is, seriously, appalling. Jaime Graham is also a good friend of mine, and this is ridiculous. Jamie and Marc are tight, and they aren't "preying" on each other, they aren't trying to rip people off, and they aren't trying to drown kittens.

 

I find it interesting that everybody is all full of pomp and chest beating here over something that 1) was two years old and 2) is, essentially, 100% "he said she said" stuff. Give me a break.

[supapimp]

Jesus, I just read this train wreck.

 

Marc Nathan is a very good friend of mine - and the innuendo in this thread is, seriously, appalling. Jaime Graham is also a good friend of mine, and this is ridiculous. Jamie and Marc are tight, and they aren't "preying" on each other, they aren't trying to rip people off, and they aren't trying to drown kittens.

 

I find it interesting that everybody is all full of pomp and chest beating here over something that 1) was two years old and 2) is, essentially, 100% "he said she said" stuff. Give me a break.

 

[Shootydog]

Stories like this just make we want to get out of the hobby entirely and move on to something else.

 

 

sigh.

 

Why? The end result favors the customer as much as possible.

 

Listen, if you've been in this hobby long enough, you'd bought at least one, if not multiple, restored books that were not disclosed to you as such. A small percentage was intentional; the by product of a dishonest dealer, but the majority was likely accidental. At worst, the fault lies in the fact that a dealer either 1). doesn't have the time to screen every book thoroughly himself, or 2). has to employ people without the pre-requisite skills to catch a well done resto job with great consistency.

 

The point is not that it happens, but how the dealer responds when it does.

 

I've recounted the story of how I bought a FF # 52 from Greg White that was a sure fire 9.4, if it wasn't for the well done CT that I only detected after I left the poorly lit room the Tampa convention was housed in. When I immediately returned to Greg's table that day and requested a refund, he told me he would offer me credit and take the book back. Keep in mind, I paid cash...$350 to be exact, just an hour earlier. Now, I like Greg, and will talk with him for a couple of minutes when I see him at a show...but there's no way I'll ever buy a high grade book from the man again.

 

In comparison to that story, the offer by GrahamCrackers to exchange the book two years after the fact is very generous indeed.

 

Even CGC, with all their expert eyes and resto checks, still gets one wrong on occasion. It happens. It's what happens afterward, how the situation is handled, that's more important.

 

 

The details of the tale are not the issue. Its the negativity that is interjected into the hobby and the forums based solely upon the way these stories are presented.

 

I haven't read anything here that leads me to believe anyone was intentionally dishonest but it sure makes me look at all my books with a less than favorable light and begin to question their virginity....for lack of a better term. Just takes some of the fun out of it all.

[joeypost]

Generous offer I think.

 

More than generous. If the buyer wants to play it safe, use the credit towards a blue label book.

[Foolkiller]

Jesus, I just read this train wreck.

 

Marc Nathan is a very good friend of mine - and the innuendo in this thread is, seriously, appalling. Jaime Graham is also a good friend of mine, and this is ridiculous. Jamie and Marc are tight, and they aren't "preying" on each other, they aren't trying to rip people off, and they aren't trying to drown kittens.

 

I find it interesting that everybody is all full of pomp and chest beating here over something that 1) was two years old and 2) is, essentially, 100% "he said she said" stuff. Give me a break.

 

This is exactly the problem -- and why stories like this become counter productive without concrete proof. Rich is swearing this is the way it went down, people who know Jamie/Marc are going to swear there's no way it could happen. In the end, it becomes a clusterf--k where nobody knows what the truth is.

 

If Graham Crackers has offered a refund, credit or otherwise, then that's the end of this little tale.

[Excelsior!-migration]

I wouldn't even think about getting a refund on a 2yo deal. I would just take my loss and move on. If the seller is nice to offer you trade for same value on a purchase from 2 years ago I would consider yourself lucky and take it.

[DR.X]

Generous offer I think.

 

More than generous. If the buyer wants to play it safe, use the credit towards a blue label book.

 

This sounds like the most logical way to end this.

 

JFYI, I had a Strange Tales # 87 that I have had in my possession for 30 years or more come back P.L.O.D. 7.0 top edge trimmed. No one has ever touched this book, and I cant trim my bushes right. Should I hunt the seller down.

 

DRX

[VintageComics]

Stories like this just make we want to get out of the hobby entirely and move on to something else.

 

 

sigh.

 

Why? The end result favors the customer as much as possible.

 

Listen, if you've been in this hobby long enough, you'd bought at least one, if not multiple, restored books that were not disclosed to you as such. A small percentage was intentional; the by product of a dishonest dealer, but the majority was likely accidental. At worst, the fault lies in the fact that a dealer either 1). doesn't have the time to screen every book thoroughly himself, or 2). has to employ people without the pre-requisite skills to catch a well done resto job with great consistency.

 

The point is not that it happens, but how the dealer responds when it does.

 

I've recounted the story of how I bought a FF # 52 from Greg White that was a sure fire 9.4, if it wasn't for the well done CT that I only detected after I left the poorly lit room the Tampa convention was housed in. When I immediately returned to Greg's table that day and requested a refund, he told me he would offer me credit and take the book back. Keep in mind, I paid cash...$350 to be exact, just an hour earlier. Now, I like Greg, and will talk with him for a couple of minutes when I see him at a show...but there's no way I'll ever buy a high grade book from the man again.

 

In comparison to that story, the offer by GrahamCrackers to exchange the book two years after the fact is very generous indeed.

 

Even CGC, with all their expert eyes and resto checks, still gets one wrong on occasion. It happens. It's what happens afterward, how the situation is handled, that's more important.

 

 

The details of the tale are not the issue. Its the negativity that is interjected into the hobby and the forums based solely upon the way these stories are presented.

 

I haven't read anything here that leads me to believe anyone was intentionally dishonest but it sure makes me look at all my books with a less than favorable light and begin to question their virginity....for lack of a better term. Just takes some of the fun out of it all.

 

When you say all the negativity, you are talking about only the restored books that are complained about. You are not referring to all the positive transactions that people have, and there are literally 1000's.

 

It's a bit of a stretch when you take on incident and try to extrapolate it to encompass the entire hobby. No matter where you go you will have poo and honey.

 

This is a great hobby with tons of terrific people in it.

 

(thumbs u

[VintageComics]

Generous offer I think.

 

We can all get a little jaded because of the amount of time we spend in the hobby interacting with each other and the breadth of dealers that we can compare customer service notes with.

 

I have a former employer that owes me over $90,000 in overtime wages and because I am past the statute of limitations I can do nothing about it.

 

This is a $100 comic. It's a very generous offer as far as normal retail statutes go.

 

If people exhausted all their options before starting or contributing to threads like this it would certainly help keep the negativity in check.

 

I'm not saying that the OP didn't exhaust his options as it is entirely possible that he was not going to be offered the exchange until the thread was started but there are just too many "jump the gun threads" created that simply have the effect of stirring the pot with nothing productive coming out of them than simply taking up real estate space on the forum.

 

 

[lizards2]

Generous offer I think.

 

More than generous. If the buyer wants to play it safe, use the credit towards a blue label book.

 

This sounds like the most logical way to end this.

 

JFYI, I had a Strange Tales # 87 that I have had in my possession for 30 years or more come back P.L.O.D. 7.0 top edge trimmed. No one has ever touched this book, and I cant trim my bushes right. Should I hunt the seller down.

 

DRX

 

Out the bastiche

[Shootydog]

 

No matter where you go you will have poo and honey.

 

I LOL'ed

[ft88]

Doesn't Sears/Craftsman offer lifetime guarantees on their tools? Do people game the system - sure but they certainly have a brand people trust.

 

Once you offer a lifetime guarantee, folks are more than willing to buy from you and at a premium.

 

I know I offer refunds for practically any reason. But my policy isn't necessarily a policy that can be gamed. Each return should be treated almost individually and if you have so much business that you can't afford the 5 minutes in communication then $300 isn't going to be a game breaker anyway.

 

Is the returner someone who does it habitually?

Have you gotten burned in the past with a damaged good / switched item?

Was the returner ultimately nice about the return. Sure maybe started out steamed but calmed down in the end.

Will the returner likely buy again if given a full refund?

Is the reason for the return at least reasonable?

 

And seriously, how many returns are there really? 1 out of 100, 200, 500? I mean, if Graham or anyone else is getting 1 in 50 returned there are probably some serious problems.

 

While I am no volume seller I can almost count the number of returns I've had over the last few years and almost always, the buyer was right about a grading slip-up or a mispackaging job (that I've learned from) on my part. Only when the buyer was downright rude did I give any pushback and even then it wasn't a big deal to me. It's just business and in business there are returns - simple as that.

 

If you get to the $1000 and up type sales, other precautions tend to enter the picture. This is why many high end books will only be sold to certain known people even if it means less money offered.

 

Regardless, Graham has certainly lost over $500 in publicity within this crowd, so only from an economic point of view he should have given a refund. As should we all in a similar circumstances. But each to there own.

[comicwiz]

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that reputations are lost and/or earned through the choices made in dealing with a situation when it arises. If I were going by the purely anecdotal evidence provided by the OP, it would be an understatement to say that the title of the post started things off on the wrong foot.

 

The fact that the seller responded, and offered an exchange in spite of the crude approach to call him out speaks loudest in terms of the calls a situation like this demands from a person in need of reclaiming any/all reputation points.

 

If I mention the aspect of gaming, I say this using the same anecdotal evidence to bring the kind of balance that is sometimes lacking in threads of this nature. I'm honest, transparent and would not hesitate to cooperate with any buyer in any situation should one arise. However, I wouldn't be explaining the entire picture if I didn't make mention of the idiosyncratic behaviour that can sometimes follow dealings in this hobby. If it isn't the product, its the lack of timeliness in responding to an email or phone call, even if its at the most a day late. If a call or email is even made before deciding to sling some mud.

 

Not to mention the flack sellers in certain geographic areas get because buyers are unnerved about dealing with a Canadian, or with a shipment that takes a few days longer than was originally estimated. I recently got the most unusual email request from a person who I had bought and sold from asking to ship back a comic to him that was included in a multiple book trade deal because they forgot to pull their eBay listing and rather than telling the potential buyer the truth about his absent-mindedness and that the book was no longer available, they decided the best way to save embarrassment was to compel me into just giving him the book back. I'm as honest as they come, but won't do it to a fault just because someone decides the way they want to go about their lives is to step all over others.

 

It's situations like this where no matter how hard you work to earn your reputation that you realize you can't please everyone, all the time.