I dropped my soap in GrahamCrackers shower

[MrBedrock]

 

(2) With restoration of any description, I think any seller worth his salt should have an open-ended full refund policy in place. Errors will understandably occur and the seller should be happy to make those errors good. (thumbs u

 

Man that's just asking to get cornholed IMO.

Our return policy is open-ended and I haven't been cornholed yet.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

(2) With restoration of any description, I think any seller worth his salt should have an open-ended full refund policy in place. Errors will understandably occur and the seller should be happy to make those errors good. (thumbs u

 

Man that's just asking to get cornholed IMO.

Our return policy is open-ended and I haven't been cornholed yet.

 

That's cause even if you bend over, still no one can reach your....ah, nevermind.

[Ares]

 

(2) With restoration of any description, I think any seller worth his salt should have an open-ended full refund policy in place. Errors will understandably occur and the seller should be happy to make those errors good. (thumbs u

 

Man that's just asking to get cornholed IMO.

Our return policy is open-ended and I haven't been cornholed yet.

 

That's cause even if you bend over, still no one can reach your....ah, nevermind.

speaking from experience?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

(2) With restoration of any description, I think any seller worth his salt should have an open-ended full refund policy in place. Errors will understandably occur and the seller should be happy to make those errors good. (thumbs u

 

Man that's just asking to get cornholed IMO.

Our return policy is open-ended and I haven't been cornholed yet.

 

That's cause even if you bend over, still no one can reach your....ah, nevermind.

speaking from experience?

 

I was using the Applied Scientology method of visualization. Tom Cruise taught it to me.

[MrBedrock]

Maybe we could talk Richard and Matt and a few of the other dealers like Bob, who DO know what to look for, into contributing to a thread that could be stickied.

Unfortunately Sharon, at this time I am busy preparing the "How to Intentionally Overlook Restoration When Selling" seminar which will be available on an invitation only basis.

[skypinkblu]

Maybe we could talk Richard and Matt and a few of the other dealers like Bob, who DO know what to look for, into contributing to a thread that could be stickied.

Unfortunately Sharon, at this time I am busy preparing the "How to Intentionally Overlook Restoration When Selling" seminar which will be available on an invitation only basis.

 

 

Damn, Richard, you always think of these fascinating projects that keep you busy...

 

Happy New Year in any case, and it was by far the most interesting course I've taken in years (thumbs u

[rob_allan]

Here is my experience with Jamie Graham...

 

I bought an AF15 from him this year. It was low grade and he told me he thought the top edge might be trimmed. (He wasn't 100% sure but wanted to disclose the possibility.) The fact that he would disclose a procedure he wasn't even sure occurred was reassuring from my POV. (Fact is, I've stared and stared at the book and just don't see it. I really don't think it is, but I have no reason to want it slabbed so will never know for sure.)

 

That said, he disclosed right there. Now you could argue in an extremely low grade book, the difference in price would be negligible-- the book has chipping that's way worse looking than a microtrim. But it was still a bigger money book and I have to think he would apply this same ethic to other transactions.

 

Don't know what weight this carries, but this is my recent (summer), direct experience with the seller in question.

 

-Rob-

[BradleyX2]

Jesus, I just read this train wreck.

 

Marc Nathan is a very good friend of mine - and the innuendo in this thread is, seriously, appalling. Jaime Graham is also a good friend of mine, and this is ridiculous. Jamie and Marc are tight, and they aren't "preying" on each other, they aren't trying to rip people off, and they aren't trying to drown kittens.

 

I find it interesting that everybody is all full of pomp and chest beating here over something that 1) was two years old and 2) is, essentially, 100% "he said she said" stuff. Give me a break.

 

 

 

I think you meant to say

 

[JmC]

Unfortunately, here's the reality. There are several big name, big time dealers (and not necessarily the ones at issue here) who intentionally sell restored books as unrestored. It happens all the time. Some of these are dealers we know and like from a personal standpoint. I'm not talking about "slipping through the cracks" or they just aren't sure, I'm talking about ones who are told that there is resto on the books and still attempt to sell it as unrestored (I've seen this personally happen and had it happen where I returned books and they were later sold to other parties as unrestored).

 

Then there's dealers who can't spot restoration with any sort of consistency or reliability. Volume is no excuse on big key books. If your Brave and the Bold 28 is restored, you know it if you have any skills whatsoever. There are several major dealers who can't. You could say they are intentionally doing it, but I can't say that in these cases.

 

I also find collectors hiding behind the "I'm not a dealer so I can't tell shield" when I know they have "eagle eyes" when buying a book.

 

Brian, you are on the money! I have bought books from some Big boys that came back restored, and sometimes they just blantantly tell you off

Don't think this is going on? Please don't kid yourselves. The only tool I can tell you to arm yourself with is information.

[DR.FRANKENSTEIN-migration]

Stories like this just make we want to get out of the hobby entirely and move on to something else.

 

 

sigh.

 

Why? The end result favors the customer as much as possible.

 

Listen, if you've been in this hobby long enough, you'd bought at least one, if not multiple, restored books that were not disclosed to you as such. A small percentage was intentional; the by product of a dishonest dealer, but the majority was likely accidental. At worst, the fault lies in the fact that a dealer either 1). doesn't have the time to screen every book thoroughly himself, or 2). has to employ people without the pre-requisite skills to catch a well done resto job with great consistency.

 

The point is not that it happens, but how the dealer responds when it does.

 

I've recounted the story of how I bought a FF # 52 from Greg White that was a sure fire 9.4, if it wasn't for the well done CT that I only detected after I left the poorly lit room the Tampa convention was housed in. When I immediately returned to Greg's table that day and requested a refund, he told me he would offer me credit and take the book back. Keep in mind, I paid cash...$350 to be exact, just an hour earlier. Now, I like Greg, and will talk with him for a couple of minutes when I see him at a show...but there's no way I'll ever buy a high grade book from the man again.

 

In comparison to that story, the offer by GrahamCrackers to exchange the book two years after the fact is very generous indeed.

 

Even CGC, with all their expert eyes and resto checks, still gets one wrong on occasion. It happens. It's what happens afterward, how the situation is handled, that's more important.

 

 

The details of the tale are not the issue. Its the negativity that is interjected into the hobby and the forums based solely upon the way these stories are presented.

 

I haven't read anything here that leads me to believe anyone was intentionally dishonest but it sure makes me look at all my books with a less than favorable light and begin to question their virginity....for lack of a better term. Just takes some of the fun out of it all.

 

When you say all the negativity, you are talking about only the restored books that are complained about. You are not referring to all the positive transactions that people have, and there are literally 1000's.

 

It's a bit of a stretch when you take on incident and try to extrapolate it to encompass the entire hobby. No matter where you go you will have poo and honey.

 

This is a great hobby with tons of terrific people in it.

 

(thumbs u

 

Jamie Graham is a stand up guy...period (thumbs u . I sold Jamie $7000.00 dollars worth of books in Chicago this year, upon returning home I found my bank to be ultra conservative with his out of state check. My bank wanted to put a 10 day hold on the funds, I called Jamie...that same day he took the time out of his schedule and wired the funds to me immediately because I needed them right away.Healso sold my buddy a TEC #29....there was a small error in disclosure, he fixed it immediately with a very large adjustment in the price. I really don't like the name of this thread ....this type of approach is not what I would prefer to see here on the boards.

[Mister_Comics]

I usually sit back and just read these boards. But this one. Well I'll just say it caught my eye.

 

I've known Jamie since he's been in comics and I don't believe he would intentionally sell restored comics.

 

With that said, I will just say I don't like the way the original poster has used the people of this board for his personal witch hunt. Its all hearsay. A 2 year old deal. Give me a break. What seller would give back money on a deal 2 years old? If Jamie does give a refund that makes him a hero in my eyes.

 

And the title to this thread. Not a good idea. Thats just an insult to Jamie and his stores. If there were problems to his business because of this I'd worry about legal issues like slander and malicious gossip.

 

Posters shouldn't use these boards as attacks on a persons business.

 

Wise up! Listen to the voice of a seasoned collector. I don't believe Jamie deserves this kind of attack on his business.

 

I'm out of here. Have a Happy New Year.

[Foolkiller]

I usually sit back and just read these boards. But this one. Well I'll just say it caught my eye.

 

I've known Jamie since he's been in comics and I don't believe he would intentionally sell restored comics.

 

With that said, I will just say I don't like the way the original poster has used the people of this board for his personal witch hunt. Its all hearsay. A 2 year old deal. Give me a break. What seller would give back money on a deal 2 years old? If Jamie does give a refund that makes him a hero in my eyes.

 

And the title to this thread. Not a good idea. Thats just an insult to Jamie and his stores. If there were problems to his business because of this I'd worry about legal issues like slander and malicious gossip.

 

Posters shouldn't use these boards as attacks on a persons business.

 

Wise up! Listen to the voice of a seasoned collector. I don't believe Jamie deserves this kind of attack on his business.

 

I'm out of here. Have a Happy New Year.

 

I'll leave the comments about Jamie (pro or con) for others. On the issue of slander and lawsuits, highly unlikely. Problem is Jamie would have to "prove" that the statements aren't true. This is what makes libel/slander lawsuits so difficult to win.

 

As I said, this is what makes this thread a clusterf--k, what good can possibly come of this. Pro Jamie people defend him. Anti Jamie people attack him. What is the truth? Who knows. And then it just becomes all a matter of accusations...

[VintageComics]

What is the truth? Who knows. And then it just becomes all a matter of accusations...

 

The "truth" is that all available possible avenues should be exhausted before "outing" someone in public and if that someone has made thing right and has a reasonably good reputation it should end there.

 

Another way to tackle it is to simply ask if someone has had a problem with such and such without going into details and if there is an overwhelming pattern of negative behavior forming, then you might have a case.

 

Buying the odd restored book from a large volume seller is not a pattern. If a large percentage of books are coming back restored over a long period of time (ie not from just one recent collection) well then you might have a problem.

 

That's the only way to prevent these cluster **** things from happening.

 

R.

 

[CKB]

Well, since someone pointed me in the direction of this thread, I just can't take this anymore.

.

.

.

.

Be warry, be SMART when you shop.

And if you're spending a lot of money on a book like an Avengers 4 or an FF 48 or 49 or something, get that dealer to back up for you in some way that he'll own up to a refund if that book comes back purple.

If he WONT...then walk away.

 

Post of the year hands down. Thank you.

 

I'll add: Buy books who's value is completely condition-based (like Silver Keys) in slabs only. My personal ethic is not to sell raw books that meet that criteria who's asking price is over a certain amount.

 

[Hamlet]

I think a lot of good came out of the thread.

 

GrahamCracker sold a restored book to the OP 2 years ago. When the OP brought it to their attention, they basically said "tough luck, its been too long for you to bring that book back".

 

John Robinson explained his reasoning for that decision. It is not an unreasonable decision, but if I was the OP, I would be extremely upset with it. As a potential customer, I would be less likely to do business with GrahamCracker knowing that they would be willing to burn a customer like that. Remember, the OP had been wronged by GrahamCracker. I'm sure it was completely unintentional, but the OP was still left with a PLOD book that GrahamCrackers had sold him as unrestored.

 

The thread appears to have changed John Robinson's mind on the decision, since he did offer the OP store credit for the book. I think that that is a very fair offer, and I would expect the OP to take it and be satisfied with the outcome.

 

So I think the thread led to an improvement in GrahamCracker's handling of a tough customer service decision.

 

Sadly, it also led to a lot of unfounded attacks on a number of peoples' character.

 

Hopefully, next time this decision comes up at GrahamCracker, they may think back to this thread and make that store credit offer the first time.

 

 

 

I usually sit back and just read these boards. But this one. Well I'll just say it caught my eye.

 

I've known Jamie since he's been in comics and I don't believe he would intentionally sell restored comics.

 

With that said, I will just say I don't like the way the original poster has used the people of this board for his personal witch hunt. Its all hearsay. A 2 year old deal. Give me a break. What seller would give back money on a deal 2 years old? If Jamie does give a refund that makes him a hero in my eyes.

 

And the title to this thread. Not a good idea. Thats just an insult to Jamie and his stores. If there were problems to his business because of this I'd worry about legal issues like slander and malicious gossip.

 

Posters shouldn't use these boards as attacks on a persons business.

 

Wise up! Listen to the voice of a seasoned collector. I don't believe Jamie deserves this kind of attack on his business.

 

I'm out of here. Have a Happy New Year.

 

I'll leave the comments about Jamie (pro or con) for others. On the issue of slander and lawsuits, highly unlikely. Problem is Jamie would have to "prove" that the statements aren't true. This is what makes libel/slander lawsuits so difficult to win.

 

As I said, this is what makes this thread a clusterf--k, what good can possibly come of this. Pro Jamie people defend him. Anti Jamie people attack him. What is the truth? Who knows. And then it just becomes all a matter of accusations...

[comix4fun]

Interesting perspective.

 

We always want to see a fair an equitable result, but that is going to be different in every case.

 

In this case the TWO YEAR time gap is what makes equity a difficult proposition. Does a purchaser bear no responsibility for their own actions or failure to act? None? What if the purchaser waited 10 years would the equitable thing still be 100% in his favor? It's a slippery slope leading to an impossible standard for sellers that will ultimately be exploited by the less than honest buyers in the world.

 

I suggest you take a quick peek at the legal/equitable concept of "Laches", it may lend some insight as to how failure to act, to sit and wait without action have been treated. Equity is not served to opening the door to creating unlimited responsibility to sellers and removing all responsibility from buyers and letting them, basically, do anything or wait forever and still be entitled to recover completely despite their negligence.

 

Best,

Chris

 

 

 

 

GrahamCracker sold a restored book to the OP 2 years ago. When the OP brought it to their attention, they basically said "tough luck, its been too long for you to bring that book back".

 

John Robinson explained his reasoning for that decision. It is not an unreasonable decision, but if I was the OP, I would be extremely upset with it. As a potential customer, I would be less likely to do business with GrahamCracker knowing that they would be willing to burn a customer like that. Remember, the OP had been wronged by GrahamCracker. I'm sure it was completely unintentional, but the OP was still left with a PLOD book that GrahamCrackers had sold him as unrestored.

 

[Foolkiller]

Okay, for those of you non lawyers, breaking out the term 'laches' means we are all back in law school.

 

I really never wanted to revisit these old concepts.

[BronzeBruce13]

Yet, the point he raised about "where is the line" in terms of "time after purchase responsibility" is one worth at least exploring. Is there a "quasi-standard" already in place for most dealers? Or, does it come down to the "value of reputation" for the seller vs. the "public profile level/ability to do that rep. harm" of the buyer, etc. It's a tough debate. I think the answer would be very different if CGC never emerged.

[comix4fun]

Okay, for those of you non lawyers, breaking out the term 'laches' means we are all back in law school.

 

I really never wanted to revisit these old concepts.

 

 

I figured a single word like "Laches" would be easier for people to google than "Contributory Negligence" or "Estoppel by acquiescence".

 

No one wants to be a One L again...I agree.

[DR.FRANKENSTEIN-migration]

I usually sit back and just read these boards. But this one. Well I'll just say it caught my eye.

 

I've known Jamie since he's been in comics and I don't believe he would intentionally sell restored comics.

 

With that said, I will just say I don't like the way the original poster has used the people of this board for his personal witch hunt. Its all hearsay. A 2 year old deal. Give me a break. What seller would give back money on a deal 2 years old? If Jamie does give a refund that makes him a hero in my eyes.

 

And the title to this thread. Not a good idea. Thats just an insult to Jamie and his stores. If there were problems to his business because of this I'd worry about legal issues like slander and malicious gossip.

 

Posters shouldn't use these boards as attacks on a persons business.

 

Wise up! Listen to the voice of a seasoned collector. I don't believe Jamie deserves this kind of attack on his business.

 

I'm out of here. Have a Happy New Year.

 

 

PLUS 1 :headbang: