Which key is more key: Showcase #4 or FF #1?

[lou_fine]

Perspective from the Harvey world:

 

Little Dot #1 1954 introduces the trio of Little Dot, Little Lotta & Richie Rich

Harvey Hits #3 1957 1st Richie Rich solo issue unleashed

Richie Rich #1 1960 long running series & main character would have about 37 concurrent running titles in the mid-70s. More than Archie, Spidey & X-men combined.

 

See www.pgcmint.com bottom of home page. Mark Wilson agrees Harvey Hits 3 is the Amaz Fant 15 of the Harvey world.

 

and that means what exactly?

 

 

It means that Mark Wilson obviously has a high grade copy of Harvey Hits #3 for sale on his web site. It also means that Mark does NOT have a copy of Little Dot #1 for sale which based on the above should probably be the true AF #15 of the Harvey World.

[Aman619]

bingo!!

[acesilver]

Not the more expensive, but the more important book.

 

I think it's FF #1.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Showcase 4. It set the stage for the other Marvel and DC Silver keys that were to follow. Both books are important in their own right. But I vote for the one that came first. Without going through a rehash of the Showcase 4/Brave and Bold 28 thread from a while back debating the other points.

[blowout]

Hmmm, you do bring up a very fine point.

[JohnBull]

Showcase 4 introduced us to the SA of comic collecting, but FF1 ushered in the entire Marvel universe with all of it's accompanying influences. If for no other reason than that, it should have been shot at birth.

[goldust40]

Have an opinion, why don'tcha.

[Zonker]

Maybe FF is just a revamp of the Human Torch combined with the Challengers of the Unknown?

 

Most excellent, Rip! (the cover to Challs #3 as Exhibit A gets a big as well!)

 

Seems to me that FF #1 has been valued primarily recently as a precursor to Amazing Fantasy #15 and the whole Spider-Man phenom. That may change with the FF movie, but I kinda doubt it.

 

So if you buy that FF #1 begat AF #15, then I do think it takes you right back to the lineage of Showcase 4 => B&B 28 => FF 1 => AF 15 => Marvel takes over the world.

 

 

[uclapeterg]

Showcase 4. I am one of the BIGGEST Fantastic Four fans there is, but even Stan Lee admits that the FF was "inspired" by the JLA.

[fantastic_four]

I don't think Stan n' Jack created very many original characters; most of them were ripped off from somewhere else. FF was a ripoff of JLA, and each character's powers were a ripoff from somewhere else...Spider-Man's powers were marginally original...Daredevil borrows so heavily from Batman that it's almost laughable...Hulk was just a strong monster like the hundreds of others Kirby had created...and Thor was taken from Norse mythology. Lee's strength was in character development and dialogue, not brainstorming great new superhero powers.

 

Between Showcase 4 and FF 1, FF 1 is definitely more key since Marvel has dominated comics since it came out...but AF15 is much more key than FF1. Showcase 4 versus FF 1 versus AF15 is a much better comparison, and AF15 wins easily.

[Rip]

I don't think the definition of a key has just to do with who has the more dominate company. Peoples ideas of a "key" book change over the years. At one time in the 70's and 80’s, Marvel Comics 1 (Motion Picture Funnies 1 reprint) was considered THE "key" book because of Marvels dominance. During the Batman craze many thought it was tec 27. But from what I see, things seem to fall back in line for their historical importance.

Anyway.............let me get on my soapbox for a sec.

It was Showcase that began the rebirth of comics from the Golden Age.

Not FF not Spider-Man not BB28. People talk about S4 just being a retread. Well that's kind of what the Silver Age was. It was a renaissance of the Superhero. What's so great, is you can SO perfectly pinpoint this great spark with the Showcase series. Brave and the Bold of course continued that pattern of rebirth with the NEW Justice Society, the JLA. Marvel/Atlas came in later and wanted to get a piece of this new trend. Even Stan Lee mentioned that the FF was going to be a rebirth of golden age heroes. So then you have FF. Created with elements of the JLA, the Human Touch, from the Challengers of the Unknown (shamelessly) and a few others. But what Marvel did that was SO great was, it added an extra sense of “reality” to the characters. Lee added the wonderful imperfections of humanity.

[Aces]

FF 1

 

[uclapeterg]

Aren't we a lil' biased?

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Even though I collect NOTHING but Marvels, I'd have to grudgingly concede to Showcase #4.

 

Even though it kills me to say it.

 

Rick

[tth2]

Even though I collect NOTHING but Marvel Triple Action, I'd also have to grudgingly concede to Showcase #4.

 

 

[Aces]

Why to they bother to put up a big scan of the label when the picture quality is so darn low you still can't read it!?

 

 

Attachment

 

[burntboy]

RIP; well spoken my good man!!!!!!!!

 

i have to fall down on the side of Showcase #4, as well. i can think of no other book that truly began the Silver Age of comics (the renaissance of GA super heroes, if you will).

 

it was one of the first 2 comics that i can definitely remember buying (along with batwoman's premier in Detective around the same time). it got the superheroes started on the way back to the top. it preceded FF#1 by 5 years. AND, i LOVE everything that stan, jack, steve did with marvel back in the early 60's regardless of the source.............

[uclapeterg]

They should have increased their resolution for the pic. I think they go over the work done in the description.

[hobbes]

I am not an expert on Silver Age books, but isn't the significance of Showcase 4 that it reintroduced the super hero as viable money maker? If I'm not mistaken, superhero books were not as dominant post WW2 until Showcase came out in 1956. Showcase was a hit because of the Flash which led DC, and eventually Marvel, to rely predominately on Superheroes to sell books.

[joe_collector]

But my problem with this is, that DC's were old GA characters, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman never stopped being printed, and if Marvel had NOT come along and revolutionized the super-hero comic book format, would we even be having this conversation?

 

You can play chicken-and-egg all you want, but Marvel lead the charge towards something new, and later took over the sales and fan-base leadership from DC. That, in my book, makes FF 1 the biggest SA key there is.

[hobbes]

Golden Age characters or not, the significance of Showcase 4 is that it brought the superhero to the front of the newstand again. There is no denying the impact of Marvel in the 60's but to dismiss Showcase 4 just because the company that published it fell to second behind a competitor makes no sense. Marvel deserves heaps of credit for pulling superheroes up to date with the times ( or at least closer ) but Marvle did not re-establish the superhero as a viable cash cowe DC did this with Showcase 4 and, as RIP pointed out, BB 28.