Nastiest Comic Shipping Method you ever recieved?

[burntboy]

 

thanks for sharing that - how frickin' funny!!!! i haven't seen one of those envelopes since my years at Prudential. how insane...............

[whetteon]

No shipping story will ever compare to that...

 

I nearly peed my pants.

[Foolkiller]

The seller tried to refuse a refund, which made me mad. So after I convinced him that giving a refund would be cheaper than defending a lawsuit, I shipped the book back to him in a bag, comic board, and FedEx envelope. Jerk.

 

The Jerk part I agree with. Obviously when packed that way there was little chance a) it was NM in the first place and b) that it would ever arrive NM.

 

But threatening lawsuits is usually ineffective on most ebay sellers as most of the scam artists know that a) it will never happen b) is more trouble for you to sue than for them to have to defend and c) makes it almost impossible and improbable that you could ever find someone to actually take a case like that.

[FFB]

I am a lawyer and could file the lawsuit on my own behalf in California state court for less than $100. For any book worth $5,000 or less, I could have a small claims trial completed in less than three months, with very little effort. For a book that is worth more than $5,000 but less than $25,000, I can file a lawsuit for about $140. The complaint takes about an hour to draft and no discovery needs to be done because I would already have all the records I need, plus the book as evidence. I can serve the complaint by mail for next to nothing. You don't need to be a lawyer to do this either. You can file in pro per, and California has all the forms one would need to fill out to get the case done from start to finish.

 

Once I explain this to people, I tend not to get much pushback on a refund request. I also don't mention the possibility of a lawsuit until the seller has essentially told me to F-off.

 

Granted, I won't threaten a lawsuit because a "NM" book showed up in "VF" condition because I think that's a ridiculous thing to do, but I also don't believe in sellers taking thousands of dollars of my money by blatantly lying about their VG merchandise as "NM" and then refusing to stand by their claims of "NM" comics. What am I supposed to do? Let them get away with it and then defraud others, thinking that no one will do anything? Not going to happen.

 

The seller tried to refuse a refund, which made me mad. So after I convinced him that giving a refund would be cheaper than defending a lawsuit, I shipped the book back to him in a bag, comic board, and FedEx envelope. Jerk.

 

The Jerk part I agree with. Obviously when packed that way there was little chance a) it was NM in the first place and b) that it would ever arrive NM.

 

But threatening lawsuits is usually ineffective on most ebay sellers as most of the scam artists know that a) it will never happen b) is more trouble for you to sue than for them to have to defend and c) makes it almost impossible and improbable that you could ever find someone to actually take a case like that.

[Timely]

I bought two Golden Age books off of ebay from people not familiar with the hobby, probably books they found from a dead relative or something. The seller sends both books unbagged AND unboarded loosely in an oversized envelope. When I opened up the package BOTH covers were completely detached from their interiors! What a shame! Needless to say they were returned.

 

Timely

[Ze-man]

I bought two Golden Age books off of ebay from people not familiar with the hobby, probably books they found from a dead relative or something. The seller sends both books unbagged AND unboarded loosely in an oversized envelope. When I opened up the package BOTH covers were completely detached from their interiors! What a shame! Needless to say they were returned.

 

Timely

 

When I read about covers coming off and damage to classic comics, makes me feel sad.

Though the seller was most likely ignorant as to what they were, the comics were the ones who suffered.

Once damaged , never the same.. a pity.

I bit sentimental of me? prolly.. but I just hate to see good comics damaged.

 

[Foolkiller]

Ahhh... my civil procedure (as I'm criminal, not civil) is very rusty, so indulge me for a second, because I've actually always wanted the answer to this:

 

Even if you threaten to sue, isn't there a jurisdictional problem? If you sue in CA state court, you don't personal jurisdiction over the seller unless he/she is also from CA as well. Then wouldn't you have to sue in federal court? Thus, I would imagine the process wouldn't be worth it for you. Plus, there's the problem of actual executing judgment. Although judgment would likely be entered for you anyway on a case, what do you think your odds would be of winning on an ebay dispute? How do you think judges might treat ebay questions... different or similar to normal contractual obligations?

 

There's some advantage in being a lawyer and threatening a lawsuit, because you can sound impressive with the language (which is a common lawyerly intimidation tactic) but I've discussed many times with colleagues in the civil world here who feel that such suits are both impractical and not likely to even be a seriously taken threat. You have had a much different take and experience and I'm curious to hear the approach if you were to hypothetically sue.

[garthgantu]

Man, these are some real horror stories..! I feel better about my lousy experiences now

 

This one isn't really a 'shipping method' so much as a 'packing joke.' As a kid living in Northern California, my comic-buying opportunities were sufficiently limited, and my hunger was sufficiently ravenous, that I would pretty much buy any comic book I could lay my hands on.

 

There was a nutty middle-aged woman living in the same town (Mendocino) who had children's comic collection, and sold the books out of her house. This was in 1975-77, and her books ranged in age from I suspect everything else in the house was for sale too, including the insane bric-a-brac on the roof and in the front yard. Anyway, she didn't sell comics like any normal person would. She would take two comics, lay one on top of the other, roll them up tight, and use a piece of masking tape to 'secure' the books in that rolled-up position. She would sell them 2-for-25 cents, which was roughly half the price of new books in that timeframe, and her comics ranged from 1960 to 1973 or so. Yes, due to the comics being tightly rolled up, you couldn't actually see what you were getting 'til you'd handed over your $... but given the dearth of options, I bought comics from her 'til she ran out, I think. If you pressed them under some heavy books for awhile, you could generally get the 'roll' out, and sometimes you'd get a real gem, like a Silver Surfer 4 or a late '60s Batman or whatever. Getting the masking tape off wasn't too tough, it was the roll that killed ya.

I remember trying to negotiate with the woman to just sell me the books without rolling them up, but somehow she didn't consider that to be 'sporting' or something. She was one weird bird.

[FFB]

There would be no jurisdictional problem. The seller listed the book and his other auctions on an auction site with its servers located in California, sent the book to me in California, and I paid him from California. Performance of the contract took place in California and the seller knowingly sent the book here. Minimum contacts are present for personal jurisdiction purposes.

 

There is no federal question, so the case could not be filed in or removed to federal court. Even though we would be from different states, he couldn't get into federal court on diversity jurisdiction grounds unless the amount in controversy exceeded $75,000.

 

I would happily spend my own time to litigate against someone who is an online rip-off artist. As I said, small claims court actions take almost no time or effort. Maybe 30 minutes to fill out the form complaint and the filing fee is $22 (which is recoverable from the defendant, along with other court costs such as service fees, etc.). California has a statute that permits out-of-state service by registered mail, so service of process would cost about three bucks.

 

I'd have a judgment in about two-and-a-half months, and if a person lied about a book bad enough to make me sufficiently mad to sue (which would have to be a "NM" book showing up in VG or worse), I am positive that with the help of a local comic store owner I know (with reference to an Overstreet Grading Guide) as an "expert witness," I would win. Plus, if the guy didn't show up in court to file an answer within 30 days, I'd win by default.

 

In terms of executing on the judgment, that's easy. I always pay through PayPal, so I could subpoena the PayPal records to find out which bank account it's tied to. My firm has about 1,350 attorneys around the country, so I could easily get a friend of mine in one of our other offices to take care of having my California judgment entered as a sister-state judgment (which involves little more than filling out and filing a form in the defendant's home state). Going through the procedures of execution is easy and would actually be fun to do against someone who ripped me off, especially because someone who would rip me off is probably ripping off most of his other customers, too.

 

I haven't actually had to litigate an ebay dispute, and as I said, in about 500 ebay transactions I've only had to mention the possibility of a lawsuit a couple of times. What I did was, after asking for a refund and being told to F-off, I explained again very clearly why I wasn't satisfied with the transaction, what I wanted as a resolution, and explained clearly how much time I planned to allow before escalating things. I also explained that I was a lawyer and that it would be a relatively simple matter for me to go down to the California state courthouse, file a complaint, and have a judgment for $3,500 in hand in two months, which I would then enter in the defendant's home state and have the local sheriff take the money from his bank account or garnish his wages until the judgment was satisfied.

 

As for your question about how a judge would view an ebay claim, I can't say that I have much experience watching ebay cases in court. But I can say from my limited experience in small claims court that small claims judges around here tend to take all of their cases seriously, regardless of the source of the claim.

 

On a case involving a comic book worth several thousand dollars, I believe it would be taken more seriously by a small claims judge than would a small, fender-bender-type case, which is what they usually see. I think that most judges would find the case interesting -- I bet we'd be surprised at how many judges would *marvel* at how much their old comic books are worth nowadays, pardon the pun. As far as my odds of winning, I wouldn't bother suing unless I knew I was right and the grading had been purposefully and obviously misrepresented. We'll call it a 99% chance of success, thanks in no small part to the Overstreet Grading Guide's new, clearer color photos and the dozens of samples of CGC graded books I'd take in to the judge to show what a *real* NM/MT 9.8 looks like.

 

On one final note, no one has to be a lawyer to do this. In California as in every other state, anyone can file a case on his or her own behalf even if s/he is not a lawyer. Small claims court is designed exactly for that purpose, and they make the process so simple as to be almost insufficiently_thoughtful_person-proof.

 

Ahhh... my civil procedure (as I'm criminal, not civil) is very rusty, so indulge me for a second, because I've actually always wanted the answer to this:

 

Even if you threaten to sue, isn't there a jurisdictional problem? If you sue in CA state court, you don't personal jurisdiction over the seller unless he/she is also from CA as well. Then wouldn't you have to sue in federal court? Thus, I would imagine the process wouldn't be worth it for you. Plus, there's the problem of actual executing judgment. Although judgment would likely be entered for you anyway on a case, what do you think your odds would be of winning on an ebay dispute? How do you think judges might treat ebay questions... different or similar to normal contractual obligations?

 

There's some advantage in being a lawyer and threatening a lawsuit, because you can sound impressive with the language (which is a common lawyerly intimidation tactic) but I've discussed many times with colleagues in the civil world here who feel that such suits are both impractical and not likely to even be a seriously taken threat. You have had a much different take and experience and I'm curious to hear the approach if you were to hypothetically sue.

[lighthouse]

Very interesting...

 

Although in some states you would not get past the judgment stage... It is virtually impossible to collect on a judgment in the state of Texas unless it's for taxes, child support, or student loans. Anything else you cannot get a bank levy or a wage garnishment... You can run up six figures in credit card debt as a Texas resident and never pay a dime and never have any of your assets seized. Not that I know from personal experience or anything...

 

I don't know how many other states are like that. But I know in Texas all you would wind up with is the knowledge they have a black mark on the credit report for a while.

 

 

[FFB]

Don't comics count as child support? I think I could swing that argument!!!!

 

Very interesting...

 

Although in some states you would not get past the judgment stage... It is virtually impossible to collect on a judgment in the state of Texas unless it's for taxes, child support, or student loans. Anything else you cannot get a bank levy or a wage garnishment... You can run up six figures in credit card debt as a Texas resident and never pay a dime and never have any of your assets seized. Not that I know from personal experience or anything...

 

I don't know how many other states are like that. But I know in Texas all you would wind up with is the knowledge they have a black mark on the credit report for a while.

 

[towards2112]

Interesting, very....interesting...

[FlComicFan]

I bought a Fantastic Comics 1 in "fine"condition a few years ago on Ebay I waited a few weeks finally about the time I started to panic the box arrives I open the box and inside is another box with no lid The book is laying inside the box with Priority tape wrapped across the top of the box in place of the lid During shipment the book had slid through the split mylar and now is stuck to the Priority tape in several places. 3 phone calls later I finally contact the seller who has been NARU'd by Ebay he tells me to remove the book best as I can and return it for a refund I remove it with actually minimal damage to find the POS was color touched all over anyways and lit up like a Christmas tree under the blacklight Actually I didnt even need that the markers some [!@#%^&^] had used bled through to the insides. I managed to recover all but $50 from this debacle

[Joanna]

I want you as my lawyer.

[Smokinghawk]

Oh come on....

 

Someone must have the pic handy of the comics shipped in the inter-office envelope... I realize most of the responders to this thread weren't here back then, but that one took the cake...

 

Will a forum veteran please report to the thread?

 

You mean this one....

 

 

! I was just looking up that scan again for this thread! Yes, that was the WORST incident I ever had. And the seller bawled ME out, and argued that it was MY fault (somehow!), and that he'd never had a complaint before, and wouldn't give a refund.

 

Then there was the seller now known as wholelotofnothing who charged me ...well, see for yourself: Auction

 

I argued down the insurance cost.

 

Later he requested feedback, so we had this discussion:

 

ME: I had been wanting such an item for a while, so I took the opportunity I had to get it. I did feel, to be honest, that the shipping charges were exhorbitant and amounted to "postage profit." For example, the entire actual shipping cost, including insurance and confirmation, was less than $8, for which I paid nearly $24. I've felt dissuaded from bidding on other items (the Batman 608 RRP and USM #1's, in particular) by seeing things like $20-25 shipping fees with $10-12 required insurance, etc. I notice that other individual CGC books you sell have a $9.95 shipping fee plus $3.95 insurance. Physically, the books would cost the same to mail (and even then, corresponding insurance would be under a dollar).

I would not regard this as a complaint, per se, because I still bid knowing full well what the terms were, which means I accepted the cost. But I wanted that book. I appreciate your inquiry into my satisfaction so that I can be polite but specifically honest about my thoughts on the triple-fee for shipping. I hope you understand, and perhaps this might bring to your attention that there are buyers who are often avoidant of what would be perceived as shipping profit.

 

HIM: sorry about that ipaid 100.00 dollers for that book and let it go i did not end the auction early i let i go if you think i am lieuing about look at ,my feed back i got it on ebay for my son he did not want it...

 

ishipping for next day air for the books is any were from 18.00 to 24.00 and delivery confirmation cost me to and insured for 1000.00 is about 5 and up to 10.00 so if the book is 3.000. in insured would cost me about any were 9 to 12 i send out all the time and now i will only send out fedx of ups that is is so it will cost more i do not rob any one it cost me for the pop corn it cost me for the bubble wrap ever one who wins forgets that this cost me money to make shore the books get to you ok i spend about 75 on the items to make shore it gets to you ok

 

 

(Re-read that last paragraph. It is genuniely un-edited! Incidentally, he didn't ship "next day." He shipped Priority...About a week after I paid.)

 

 

[Foolkiller]

Thanks for the response.

 

Of course, I am aware of the small claims part and of course the knowledge that anyone can file.

 

Your scenario involves a situation where the seller also resides in CA making the threat of a lawsuit much, much more plausible (which you are saying, is exactly the case in your situation). Many, and I venture to say most, of the transactions end up being inter, not intra state, making the ability to sue in small claims court non existant and the possibility of actually suing I think decreases.

 

It would be unlikely for the seller to want to remove the case to federal court and as you have noted, the seller would be unable to do so. The primary question, and one of the reasons I think there are fewer lawsuits, is because so many interstate transactions occur, and thus (please correct me if I'm wrong) is the state where the seller resides or in Federal Court. (although wouldn't minimum contacts allow you to argue that he has made such contacts in the state where you reside as well, and thus get a judgment entered in your favor?)

 

Then the problems I presented arise and the issues concerning where, or even if you could sue, become the problem.

 

I really appreciate the detail of information you presented though, and it's great... especially the part about how you effectuate actually completing judgment.

 

 

[sterlingcomics]

I want you as my lawyer.

 

I second that! Very good information... 5 stars for you, Lawyer Dude!

[FFB]

No, the seller was in New York and everything I said applies equally to out-of-state and in-state defendants. Suing an out-of-state defendant in small claims court in California is just like suing an in-state defendant. It's actually easier to sue an out-of-state defendant, because there is a far greater chance that he will default by failing to appear.

 

As far as your venue question, as long as the seller has the requisite minimum contacts with the buyer's home state (and shipping the product there, or taking money from someone who lives there and refusing to ship the product there would most likely be enough for minimum contacts purposes), the buyer can sue in his own home state, even though the seller lives on the other side of the country.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Of course, I am aware of the small claims part and of course the knowledge that anyone can file.

 

Your scenario involves a situation where the seller also resides in CA making the threat of a lawsuit much, much more plausible (which you are saying, is exactly the case in your situation). Many, and I venture to say most, of the transactions end up being inter, not intra state, making the ability to sue in small claims court non existant and the possibility of actually suing I think decreases.

 

It would be unlikely for the seller to want to remove the case to federal court and as you have noted, the seller would be unable to do so. The primary question, and one of the reasons I think there are fewer lawsuits, is because so many interstate transactions occur, and thus (please correct me if I'm wrong) is the state where the seller resides or in Federal Court. (although wouldn't minimum contacts allow you to argue that he has made such contacts in the state where you reside as well, and thus get a judgment entered in your favor?)

 

Then the problems I presented arise and the issues concerning where, or even if you could sue, become the problem.

 

I really appreciate the detail of information you presented though, and it's great... especially the part about how you effectuate actually completing judgment.

 

[FFB]

As long as you promise to pay with high grade Silver Age Amazing Spider-Man, you've got a deal!

 

I want you as my lawyer.

[Joanna]

As long as you promise to pay with high grade Silver Age Amazing Spider-Man, you've got a deal!

 

 

Oops, there goes that deal. I'm strictly a DC kinda gal.