Anti CGC

[tth2]

What can be a negative for collectors is when you have to pay more for a comic just because it's been graded by CGC when a comparable raw copy will sell for less in most cases.

So go buy the comparable raw copy.

[tth2]

...and for collectors who want to make sure they are not getting gouged with restored or heavily overgraded books it's an even better thing.

 

I'm certainly not anti-CGC but there are some who gouge based on the fact that the book has been graded by CGC. That's what's always annoyed me about professional grading and it's not even only a CGC thing. Whenever a collectible is put in a case and has been graded by a reputable third party grading service, the price invariably goes up. This seem to be especially true for 9.8s and above and even moreso when it's the only copy certified in that grade.

 

I think the resto check is a huge positive for collectors. What can be a negative for collectors is when you have to pay more for a comic just because it's been graded by CGC when a comparable raw copy will sell for less in most cases.

my feeling is the cost of an accurately graded raw comic should be equivalent to a cgc counterpart, less the cost of the grading... just my take

I don't agree, because even if the raw book is "accurately graded" in the opinions of both the buyer and seller, CGC might still give it a different grade if you were to slab it later because you wanted to sell it. In paying the CGC price you are paying for the certainty that CGC has already assigned it "x" grade, and that grade won't change unless you decide to resub it. In paying for the raw book, there is a degree of risk (sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller) whether CGC will agree with your grade, and for that reason I think it's appropriate for there to be a "risk" premium between the price of a CGC book and a raw book, in addition to the cost of slabbing. Whether the risk premium is too big or too small is a different issue.

[G.A.tor]

I don't agree, because even if the raw book is "accurately graded" in the opinions of both the buyer and seller, CGC might still give it a different grade if you were to slab it later because you wanted to sell it. In paying the CGC price you are paying for the certainty that CGC has already assigned it "x" grade, and that grade won't change unless you decide to resub it. In paying for the raw book, there is a degree of risk (sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller) whether CGC will agree with your grade, and for that reason I think it's appropriate for there to be a "risk" premium between the price of a CGC book and a raw book, in addition to the cost of slabbing. Whether the risk premium is too big or too small is a different issue.

in general, I suspect that is what happens...

I know that when I generally sell raw books, I am typically a 1/2 grade tighter than cgc... so, maybe I should be asking for a premium

[crimson dynamo]

How about going for the best of both worlds, a reading copy and the slabbed copy? E bay is full of reading copies. That way you have the tangability of the story and the security and satisfaction of a sweet copy.

[BaltimoreLauren]

This is the best thread of the year so far.

[AtlasFan]

...and for collectors who want to make sure they are not getting gouged with restored or heavily overgraded books it's an even better thing.

 

I'm certainly not anti-CGC but there are some who gouge based on the fact that the book has been graded by CGC. That's what's always annoyed me about professional grading and it's not even only a CGC thing. Whenever a collectible is put in a case and has been graded by a reputable third party grading service, the price invariably goes up. This seem to be especially true for 9.8s and above and even moreso when it's the only copy certified in that grade.

 

I think the resto check is a huge positive for collectors. What can be a negative for collectors is when you have to pay more for a comic just because it's been graded by CGC when a comparable raw copy will sell for less in most cases.

my feeling is the cost of an accurately graded raw comic should be equivalent to a cgc counterpart, less the cost of the grading... just my take

I don't agree, because even if the raw book is "accurately graded" in the opinions of both the buyer and seller, CGC might still give it a different grade if you were to slab it later because you wanted to sell it. In paying the CGC price you are paying for the certainty that CGC has already assigned it "x" grade, and that grade won't change unless you decide to resub it. In paying for the raw book, there is a degree of risk (sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller) whether CGC will agree with your grade, and for that reason I think it's appropriate for there to be a "risk" premium between the price of a CGC book and a raw book, in addition to the cost of slabbing. Whether the risk premium is too big or too small is a different issue.

 

What's the risk factor of re-submitting a book (unaltered) to CGC and having a the book come back with a different grade?

 

There are just way too many cases of unaltered books being resubmitted and coming back with +/- a grade difference...I cringe when I hear people say: "CGC was really soft with the grading on this book" -- such as in the case of the Mound City books. This inconsistency invites all kind of conspiracy-like speculation as to why something was "soft graded". Rather then go there, I tend to believe that the real issue is that the CGC grading processes must have some serious flaws.

 

You will hear guys like Steve B. say that the folks at CGC are "only human" and "everyone make mistakes". One cannot argue with this defense, as we are all human - and that's usually the end of the discussion. But willingness to accept this response side-steps the real issue: that there is no scientific method in place to classify defects and grade books consistently...the process in place appears to rely too much on the grader's objectivity and subjective opinion.

 

The process should be so transparent and standardized that one should be able take a book and submit it (unaltered) 10 times -- and each time it should come back with the same grade -- regardless if there is a different grader each time.

 

CGC is great for restoration checking, but not so with regards to consistent grading.

 

[G.A.tor]

anytime you enter the human element into grading a comic, variances will occur... heck, I don't grade the same book the same grade every time, I doubt anyone does (or can) (thumbs u

[Primetime]

anytime you enter the human element into grading a comic, variances will occur... heck, I don't grade the same book the same grade every time, I doubt anyone does (or can) (thumbs u

yep, anything depending on human nature is bound for failure.

[AtlasFan]

anytime you enter the human element into grading a comic, variances will occur... heck, I don't grade the same book the same grade every time, I doubt anyone does (or can) (thumbs u

yep, anything depending on human nature is bound for failure.

 

That's my point...what CGC would need to do would be to break down the process of grading to such a granular level that there would be no room for a grader's objectivity to get in the way of the final grade -- remove the "human element" compleatly. The process should be so transparent that even my grandmother could use it to accuratly grade a book.

 

If CGC was able to accomplish such a feat, then their grading would truly become the accepted industry standard to which none would be able to contest.

[RockMyAmadeus]

This thread is Near Mint, Psychedelic, Radovanic, Extra Whipped Cream With A Cherry On Top WIN!

 

[Primetime]

I hate banana pudding. Does anyone hate banana pudding as much as I do? I hate how banana pudding has tarnished the reputation of good pudding, like chocolate, or even tapioca.

I LOVE banana pudding!

i LOVE BANANAS!

[adamstrange]

truly become the accepted industry standard to which none would be able to contest.

People are very different regarding how they wish various defects to be graded so I very much doubt this will happen. Grading is subjective so like many Olympic sports the best you can do is establish basic standards and then have them applied by a group of judges. In the case of the highest levels of athletic competitions they include enough judges so that they can throw the highest and lowest score and then average the rest.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Slabbing...coins is a good thing. I wouldnt have it any other way but thats because they only have a front and back. Comics were not meant to be slabbed. As a matter of fact, where I live, in the DC, MD, VA area at the small conventions, nobody has CGC books for sale. Even when I go to the bigger cons like Baltimore comic con, most people have raw books.

 

Gosh, I wonder why....?

 

Is it because many dealers refuse to acknowledge that they can't ask 4-5 times the going rate for a slabbed book?

 

And is it also because many dealers overgrade to sell books for more money to undereducated buyers...?

 

Nahhhhhhhhh. COULDN'T be.....

 

And when I talk to the dealers, most of them say they hate CGC.

 

 

I wonder why that is.....

 

I dont even think their grading is that great. Everybody has seen that Action 1 with the big chunk missing and they graded it a 2.5 when it should have been graded a fair. And yes I do have some CGC books, about 10 and some I disagree with the grade. I have these books because I intend to sell them in the near future but it would have been nice if I could have seen the inside. Most of the time when I buy a CGC book, I open it because the stupid plastic annoys me. I just dont get it.

 

Let's consider the logic....

 

1. You hate CGC graded books.

 

2. You buy CGC graded books.

 

3. You think it would have been nice if you could have seen the inside.

 

4. CGC cases are made to be opened.

 

5. You don't want to open them, because you intend to sell them.

 

6. If you open them, they become "worth less" than they are now.

 

Hmmm.

 

Something seems off, here.....

 

I wish CGC would just go away!!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's be serious, for a second...

 

You really...honestly and truly...think the hobby was BETTER without CGC?

 

You know, when dealers overgraded like it was their legal duty to, failed to disclose restoration, and stole hundreds and thousands of dollars from people in the process...?

 

You think it was BETTER when dealers could call something "MINT CONDITION" and it arrived with several dents, dings, crunched corners, spine creases, tears, etc etc etc....and the ONLY way you could be ASSURED of actually getting anything CLOSE to "mint" condition was to personally examine the books yourself, thus restricting your collecting prospects to the ability you had to travel (or not), and the time you had available....?

 

You really think that...?

 

(This has so gotta be an April Fool's post.)

[Hero Restoration]

[RockMyAmadeus]

Bob Storms brought a complete run of CGC graded moderns in the 6.0-8.0 range and they sold like hot cakes in Chicago.

 

This post makes me very sad.

 

To think that there were people who paid to grade them...

 

I'm guessing he sold them for about $5-$10 each?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

...and for collectors who want to make sure they are not getting gouged with restored or heavily overgraded books it's an even better thing.

 

I'm certainly not anti-CGC but there are some who gouge based on the fact that the book has been graded by CGC. That's what's always annoyed me about professional grading and it's not even only a CGC thing. Whenever a collectible is put in a case and has been graded by a reputable third party grading service, the price invariably goes up. This seem to be especially true for 9.8s and above and even moreso when it's the only copy certified in that grade.

 

I think the resto check is a huge positive for collectors. What can be a negative for collectors is when you have to pay more for a comic just because it's been graded by CGC when a comparable raw copy will sell for less in most cases.

my feeling is the cost of an accurately graded raw comic should be equivalent to a cgc counterpart, less the cost of the grading... just my take

I don't agree, because even if the raw book is "accurately graded" in the opinions of both the buyer and seller, CGC might still give it a different grade if you were to slab it later because you wanted to sell it. In paying the CGC price you are paying for the certainty that CGC has already assigned it "x" grade, and that grade won't change unless you decide to resub it. In paying for the raw book, there is a degree of risk (sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller) whether CGC will agree with your grade, and for that reason I think it's appropriate for there to be a "risk" premium between the price of a CGC book and a raw book, in addition to the cost of slabbing. Whether the risk premium is too big or too small is a different issue.

 

What's the risk factor of re-submitting a book (unaltered) to CGC and having a the book come back with a different grade?

 

There are just way too many cases of unaltered books being resubmitted and coming back with +/- a grade difference...I cringe when I hear people say: "CGC was really soft with the grading on this book" -- such as in the case of the Mound City books. This inconsistency invites all kind of conspiracy-like speculation as to why something was "soft graded". Rather then go there, I tend to believe that the real issue is that the CGC grading processes must have some serious flaws.

 

You will hear guys like Steve B. say that the folks at CGC are "only human" and "everyone make mistakes". One cannot argue with this defense, as we are all human - and that's usually the end of the discussion. But willingness to accept this response side-steps the real issue: that there is no scientific method in place to classify defects and grade books consistently...the process in place appears to rely too much on the grader's objectivity and subjective opinion.

 

The process should be so transparent and standardized that one should be able take a book and submit it (unaltered) 10 times -- and each time it should come back with the same grade -- regardless if there is a different grader each time.

 

CGC is great for restoration checking, but not so with regards to consistent grading.

 

The beauty, of course, is that with CGC, 9,999 times out of 10,000, you're NOT going to get a book that is slabbed 8.0, send it back in unaltered, and get a 4.5 out of it.

 

You might get a 7.0, or a 7.5, or an 8.0, or an 8.5, or a 9.0, depending on the strength of the original grade.

 

The real, genuine, honest-to-gosh question the market SHOULD be asking, but which it has blissfully ignored for 10+ years, then, is WHY are there such radical differences in price for not-so-radical differences in grade.

 

The market doesn't want to ask that question, because the market has much too much invested in the idea that CGC's grades are concrete. Buyers and sellers think that a 9.2 is worth double what a 9.0 is, even though anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that an average 9.2 is only marginally better, and sometimes WORSE, than an average 9.0. But the market refuses to admit this, at least in public.

 

Hopefully, the market will eventually see the folly in this notion (as it has with mid to low grade non-rare, non-key books) and STOP DOING IT.

[showcase4]

It disgusts me that CGC has taken over my hobby. I think this is ridiculous. And yes I do have some CGC books, about 10 and some I disagree with the grade. I just dont get it. I wish CGC would just go away!!!!!!!!!!

 

"Why do these overpriced, air polluting cars exist on the road everywhere I look ....the horse and buggy was just fine, and that's where I feel comfortable....damn automobiles!"

 

 

[tth2]

The process should be so transparent and standardized that one should be able take a book and submit it (unaltered) 10 times -- and each time it should come back with the same grade -- regardless if there is a different grader each time.

And we should all hold hands and sing Kumbayah and the world will become a better place. A nice dream, but not realistic.

 

I don't care how good CGC are, they can't get it the same 100% of the time, particularly given how fine the grades are. What the hell is the real difference between a 6.5 and 7.0? Beats the hell out of me.

 

Even completely automated factories that just do the same mechanical function over and over can't get 100% perfection, so how can you expect human beings, particularly when they are exercising judgment, not just a non-discretionary mechanical action, to get it right 100% of the time?

 

Could CGC institute some policies and practices to reduce the variability of their grading on resubmission? Absolutely, and I've advocated this for a long time. But to expect perfection is unrealistic.

[tth2]

anytime you enter the human element into grading a comic, variances will occur... heck, I don't grade the same book the same grade every time, I doubt anyone does (or can) (thumbs u

yep, anything depending on human nature is bound for failure.

 

That's my point...what CGC would need to do would be to break down the process of grading to such a granular level that there would be no room for a grader's objectivity to get in the way of the final grade -- remove the "human element" compleatly. The process should be so transparent that even my grandmother could use it to accuratly grade a book.

 

If CGC was able to accomplish such a feat, then their grading would truly become the accepted industry standard to which none would be able to contest.

This has been discussed before, and it would be impossible. To produce the kind of detailed checklist or matrix that you're talking about, that contains every single possible defect, and every possible degree of defect, that could occur in a comic, so that you could then tick the box and then the computer spits out a score, would result in a matrix that would be a thousand pages long.

 

[PreHero]

This has been discussed before, and it would be impossible. To produce the kind of detailed checklist or matrix that you're talking about, that contains every single possible defect, and every possible degree of defect, that could occur in a comic, so that you could then tick the box and then the computer spits out a score, would result in a matrix that would be a thousand pages long.

 

I agree, grading a comic is too subjective. There's just too many variables - the biggest variable is the individual person doing the grading.

 

I wish CGC would just go away!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you don't like CGC, it's simple - don't submit comics to be graded or buy graded comics.

 

For anyone who doesn't like slabbed books, send me your slabs, I'll remove the comic and replace it with the pudding of your choice.