Saw this over in "Copper" - Miracleman #15

[malvin]

For what ever reason, MM is the only major Moore work I've never read but your passion is infectious and I'm going to go out now and get myself a reprint and see what I've been missing.

You absolutely must! It was an insanely good series.

 

It's a great series, but err.. there are no reprints! You'd have to pay full retail for the individual issues!

 

Malvin

[pkveronese]

I find the above comment interesting, though, as there is no question in my mind that I'd take the #13 over the #15 any day. Except for the historic significance (which I'll grant is important!), the #13 is far more beautiful, Totleben's own well-known favorite, and (as only a few know), twice-up in size compared to all the other Totleben covers.

 

I concur - the MM #13 cover is majestic and something that would be fitting for any wall. It foreshadows a feeling of rebirth and renaissance that comes in MM #16 (one of the best single issues ever written IMO) and is felt throughout the rest of the series. The calm before the storm if you will. - Keith

[tth2]

For what ever reason, MM is the only major Moore work I've never read but your passion is infectious and I'm going to go out now and get myself a reprint and see what I've been missing.

You absolutely must! It was an insanely good series.

 

It's a great series, but err.. there are no reprints! You'd have to pay full retail for the individual issues!

 

Malvin

I`m amazed they`re not available in reprints, but in any event, the entire run is dirt cheap in raw.

[pkveronese]

For what ever reason, MM is the only major Moore work I've never read but your passion is infectious and I'm going to go out now and get myself a reprint and see what I've been missing.

You absolutely must! It was an insanely good series.

 

It's a great series, but err.. there are no reprints! You'd have to pay full retail for the individual issues!

 

Malvin

I`m amazed they`re not available in reprints, but in any event, the entire run is dirt cheap in raw.

 

It pushes $400 routinely raw for a 24 issue run. Olympus (11-16) typical goes for $150 to 200 raw as a run. Not what I would call dirt cheap.

[heartened]

Hi Felix

 

No, it doesn't mean that at all. Nothing is completely logical, and even less so for art. But, in the MM run, these three covers are what most consider the three best, and there were only 6 covers Totleben did total, so it's a bit different in terms of the rarity factor compared to the DD run. Because most want one of these three covers, they are easier to guess in terms of relative values. And the premium attached to #15 is obvious (at least to most).

 

And thank you for the congrats! Like you, the 80s were a peak tiime for me in comics, and the art is important to me for that reason.

 

Hari

 

[heartened]

Also, Felix, I'm not sure you can say this is all about rationalization. As a buyer, you need to know market data, what has sold, as best as possible the reasoning, what else is comparable, chances of getting the other pieces down the line, etc. so you can figure out what you might need to pay to acquire what you really want. If you came to the table hoping to get the MM 15 cover for 25K, that's just clearly not going to happen if you know where this market is (and has been). That was my main point there.

 

Really nothing to do with rationalization at all. Many of the big spenders don't need to rationalize at all. It's those who can't afford to buy it, who seem to feel the need to rationalize why others are buying things (not visa versa).

 

This is not directed at you at all personally, Felix, just a general comment. I know you and I see eye to eye on most things.

 

Hari

 

[heartened]

Hey Gene,

 

Yeah, for me it's all about the story on that series, and I'm a huge fan as you know. I have plenty of art from the series now, but the Bates storyline starting with issue 1 and running off/on through issue 15 is my favorite. The whole good vs evil concept, and I have always found KM to be the most disturbing yet "real" villain that I've ever seen (with the exception of you hedge fund guys who keep stealing money from us poor citizens

 

During issues #11 through #14, there are only 6 pages with Bates/KM on them, and I wanted them to build upon that storyline leading into the final clash in #15. So, now I have the bulk of them.

 

If there were any pages with Bates/KM from #15, I would have gone for those as well. But, although the one other page from #15 was nice, it was really a flashback sequence that, to me, wasn't as nice as the pages from #15 I already have. So, I passed. Plus, at these prices, can't buy everything!

 

As for the DPS, it's an important piece, all on one board, and I've seen it in person. Anyone who's seen it in person would be impressed by the artistic detail.

 

And no, can't hang it up on the wall! ! Nina asked what I bought, and I showed her. She just rolled her eyes, as usual. But, it's great to have a wife who acknowledges the importance of this hobby to my sanity.

 

Hari

 

OK, you've convinced me Hari. For what ever reason, MM is the only major Moore work I've never read but your passion is infectious and I'm going to go out now and get myself a reprint and see what I've been missing. Congrats by the way!

 

Scott Williams

 

Scott,

 

I'll be in SD for the Comic-Con. Email me ahead of time and I'll bring the run for you to read. I have the trade paperbacks.

 

Hari

 

[stinkininkin]

Hey Gene,

 

Yeah, for me it's all about the story on that series, and I'm a huge fan as you know. I have plenty of art from the series now, but the Bates storyline starting with issue 1 and running off/on through issue 15 is my favorite. The whole good vs evil concept, and I have always found KM to be the most disturbing yet "real" villain that I've ever seen (with the exception of you hedge fund guys who keep stealing money from us poor citizens

 

During issues #11 through #14, there are only 6 pages with Bates/KM on them, and I wanted them to build upon that storyline leading into the final clash in #15. So, now I have the bulk of them.

 

If there were any pages with Bates/KM from #15, I would have gone for those as well. But, although the one other page from #15 was nice, it was really a flashback sequence that, to me, wasn't as nice as the pages from #15 I already have. So, I passed. Plus, at these prices, can't buy everything!

 

As for the DPS, it's an important piece, all on one board, and I've seen it in person. Anyone who's seen it in person would be impressed by the artistic detail.

 

And no, can't hang it up on the wall! ! Nina asked what I bought, and I showed her. She just rolled her eyes, as usual. But, it's great to have a wife who acknowledges the importance of this hobby to my sanity.

 

Hari

 

OK, you've convinced me Hari. For what ever reason, MM is the only major Moore work I've never read but your passion is infectious and I'm going to go out now and get myself a reprint and see what I've been missing. Congrats by the way!

 

Scott Williams

 

Scott,

 

I'll be in SD for the Comic-Con. Email me ahead of time and I'll bring the run for you to read. I have the trade paperbacks.

 

Hari

 

If I can't track something down here, I might just take you up on that Hari. Thanks!

 

Scott

[Nexus]

I absolutely agree that oftentimes, for what collectors really want (and this is especially true about big spenders), there is no rationalization...there is simply "want". And they'll pay whatever it takes (to their max ability) to get it.

 

And although there may be no rationalization in this particular case, it does happen all the time. To say that Piece A sold for X so therefore Piece B is worth 2X is a rationalization.

 

As for market data, context is as important as the numbers. The two MM covers you previously bought were not at auction. They were private deals. And (at least at the time), you were the only person willing to pay those prices. That says to me that YOU might consider #15 to be worth 2X...but does anyone else? Sure, a ratchet effect might have occurred since you bought your pieces. But it's still a tiny, tiny market at that level. I know the consignor had one legitimate cash/trade offer at the $40K level. I don't know about "multiple offers", though. If one of the BSDs in the hobby felt it was worth that much, or even just really wanted it, it would have already been sold.

[jonjesper]

I won the Johnny head sketch towards the end of the auctions. Got outbid on the pages, but I can live with this...

 

dreamy and something to add to the MM collection!

[pkveronese]

I won the Billy head sketch towards the end of the auctions. Got outbid on the pages, but I can live with this...

 

dreamy and something to add to the MM collection!

 

Great pickup Jon!!!

[jbud73]

Hey Gene,

 

Yeah, for me it's all about the story on that series, and I'm a huge fan as you know. I have plenty of art from the series now, but the Bates storyline starting with issue 1 and running off/on through issue 15 is my favorite. The whole good vs evil concept, and I have always found KM to be the most disturbing yet "real" villain that I've ever seen (with the exception of you hedge fund guys who keep stealing money from us poor citizens

 

During issues #11 through #14, there are only 6 pages with Bates/KM on them, and I wanted them to build upon that storyline leading into the final clash in #15. So, now I have the bulk of them.

 

If there were any pages with Bates/KM from #15, I would have gone for those as well. But, although the one other page from #15 was nice, it was really a flashback sequence that, to me, wasn't as nice as the pages from #15 I already have. So, I passed. Plus, at these prices, can't buy everything!

 

As for the DPS, it's an important piece, all on one board, and I've seen it in person. Anyone who's seen it in person would be impressed by the artistic detail.

 

And no, can't hang it up on the wall! ! Nina asked what I bought, and I showed her. She just rolled her eyes, as usual. But, it's great to have a wife who acknowledges the importance of this hobby to my sanity.

 

Hari

 

Congrats Hari, I made a run but figured you'd be in there, know how much you appreciate those pages from #14 so (thumbs u

 

That page from NTT 2 will burn me for a while not sure if it was Lovitz but I'm sure it will be posted in CAF soon.

[tth2]

For what ever reason, MM is the only major Moore work I've never read but your passion is infectious and I'm going to go out now and get myself a reprint and see what I've been missing.

You absolutely must! It was an insanely good series.

 

It's a great series, but err.. there are no reprints! You'd have to pay full retail for the individual issues!

 

Malvin

I`m amazed they`re not available in reprints, but in any event, the entire run is dirt cheap in raw.

 

It pushes $400 routinely raw for a 24 issue run. Olympus (11-16) typical goes for $150 to 200 raw as a run. Not what I would call dirt cheap.

Wow, had no idea they went for that kind of money! I thought they only got decent prices in slabbed 9.8, and even then prices had come down a lot. Maybe it`s time to dig out my raw copies.

[heartened]

Hi Felix,

 

There were offers over 45K. The consigner ended up getting less by going the auction route (since he got 45K reserve, and the other 9K went to Heritage).

 

Hari

 

[sborock]

Just an FYI to all:

 

No deal was cut for anyone to buy the cover. If it did not hit reserve, it was not going to sell and the consigner was not going to get any money. End of story.

 

Now......Congrats to all who won (and enjoy) any art they got! (thumbs u

[heartened]

Just an FYI to all:

 

No deal was cut for anyone to buy the cover. If it did not hit reserve, it was not going to sell and the consigner was not going to get any money. End of story.

 

Now......Congrats to all who won (and enjoy) any art they got! (thumbs u

 

Thanks Steve! The auction went well for a niche market, and I'm glad so many people got a chance to get an example of Totleben's great art on this series. The black and white line art (especially since it is all twice-up size), is wonderful.

 

I know I'm happy with what I got. Also picked up the Adams X-Men page.

 

Hari

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I. I remember when it was at Black Line Fever about 10 yrs ago for $600....

 

That's the name of the site. Thanks! I've been wracking my brain all week trying to remember it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

As for the sale, as I said in the Copper thread, congrats to the seller...but I really do want to know where all these buyers throwing around $45k+ offers were in 03-04 when it sold on ebay for $12K or thereabouts....and why these people think it's *now* worth so much more than it was *then.*

 

Art can only be compared to itself, after all. If the (arguably) most important cover from a relatively obscure series (and I say this as a collector who has pursued MM since 1990, when I first started collecting, and fully recognizing how groundbreaking it is) is worth $53K...after being worth only about $12K six or so years ago, and $600 four years before that...

 

...what, then, the cover of Dark Knight Returns #1? (Arguably) the most single most important comic cover from the 1980's? $250K (I say easily, by now.) $500K? $1M? To the billionaire who wants it, and the seller who doesn't want to sell, where's the limit? Is there one?

[comix4fun]

Just an FYI to all:

 

No deal was cut for anyone to buy the cover. If it did not hit reserve, it was not going to sell and the consigner was not going to get any money. End of story.

 

Now......Congrats to all who won (and enjoy) any art they got! (thumbs u

 

Steve,

You have to post more often. Information like this, from the source, is invaluable.

Glad the piece found it's soul mate.

 

Best,

Chris

[heartened]

As for the sale, as I said in the Copper thread, congrats to the seller...but I really do want to know where all these buyers throwing around $45k+ offers were in 03-04 when it sold on ebay for $12K or thereabouts....and why these people think it's *now* worth so much more than it was *then.*

 

Art can only be compared to itself, after all. If the (arguably) most important cover from a relatively obscure series (and I say this as a collector who has pursued MM since 1990, when I first started collecting, and fully recognizing how groundbreaking it is) is worth $53K...after being worth only about $12K six or so years ago, and $600 four years before that...

 

...what, then, the cover of Dark Knight Returns #1? (Arguably) the most single most important comic cover from the 1980's? $250K (I say easily, by now.) $500K? $1M? To the billionaire who wants it, and the seller who doesn't want to sell, where's the limit? Is there one?

 

Hi there,

 

I responded to your question in the other thread, regarding my own personal story. However, I think this price escalation has been the "norm" for the key items in OA. For example, what would a Sandman splash from issue #1 have cost back in 2003? Not 20K. What would a Killing Joke page cost in 2003 (5K as I mentioned), compared to 2007 or 2008 (35K). What about Kirby FF? What about Byrne X-Menn covers at 20K versus 80-100K. What about the DD cover? Surely, we could have all bought a nice example for 20K back in 2003....

 

Just saying it's not so far out of the norm, and the run-up in market prices for OA has really occurred over the past decade... so the difference between 2003 and 2010 is enormous!

 

Hari