ComicLink 'Raw'

[drice6900]

Last week, someone posted about how good ComicLink was at grading raw comics they offer up for sale on their website. I don't want to be accused of causing trouble (see Ian's many posts), but I thought maybe this story should be shared.

 

Let me preface this by saying that I knew of the ComicLink 6-day return policy, and I abide by Josh's decision. I have purchased from him several times (all slabbed items) and never had any problem.

 

Further, I am not the best judge of comic grades, and I prefer to have CGC grade the higher end stuff for me, relying on a reputable seller to provide a book "within the ballpark".

 

That being said, here is the history:

 

 

Hi Josh -

 

On 12/28/03 I bought an Avengers #47 that was graded a 9.4 on your website (raw). I just received it back from CGC today, and it received an 8.5.

 

Now, I normally wouldn't mind a small variation, and anything at or over a 9.0 would have kept me happy, but an 8.5 is nearly a full 1.0 grade lower than advertised. Further, I have postage and CGC fees on this comic.

 

What can we do here?

 

- Dave Rice

 

<

AVENGERS #47, 9.4 NM $120

 

Available SubTotal = $120

Shipping & Handling = $10

Sales tax = $0

Payment Method = Paypal

Total = $130>>

 

______________________________________________________

 

Dave,

 

Since this book was purchased 12/29, we have no way of returning it to the

seller. It is too far past the 6-day return window and the seller has also

already been paid. Though this is not something I like to hear, it is out

of my hands at this point.

 

Sincerely,

 

Josh Nathanson, ComicLink

 

_______________________________________________________

 

 

I am sorry to hear that, Josh. Obviously a 6-day return policy is kind of useless when you rely on CGC for grading. I waited over 2 weeks to get the comic from you, then sent it to CGC right away, so there really was no way it could go any faster, short of CGC's walk-thru service (which isn't feasible obviously).

 

I am sure a $120 transaction means little to you - and you apparently plan to wash your hands of the problem. Blaming a 'seller' that uses your website does not absolve you from blame - you have to ensure the comics you are posting on your website are as stated. As witnessed by the long time it took to ship, I assume the comic was sent by this 'seller' to you, and then sent on to me. Did you take the time to ensure this comic was close to the grade advertised (9.4)?

 

This situation is very alarming, and at the least shows that buying raw comics from ComicLink is a gamble at best. As it is, I will no longer be a customer to your business.

 

- Dave

 

 

[clobberintime]

Thanks for sharing! A bs explanation by CL - have never had problems with raw books from the other big NY dealers when I have had to return them - or eevn Showcase. If you run the site you need to stand behind the grades and someone dealing with as many books as CL ought to be able to tell the difference between an 8.5 and 9.4 before it is sent to you. I could see it not being a big problem if you paid an 8.5 raw price for the book but you paid over guide and got jipped.

[sterlingcomics]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

 

ComicLink is a broker, merely passing the book through the seller's hands into the buyer's hands. Once the time has expired, he has already made the payment to the seller. It doesn't appear with his business model returns can be easily made. If ComicLink was selling it directly, I wouldn't see this as being a big problem. Furthermore, grading is subjective, and a 100% guarantee on the received CGC grade would probably put most folks out of biz.

 

On the flip side, I see the buyer's point of view. 6 days is not a lot of time to CGC a book to obtain the grade. It seems that buyers will have to be very comfortable with their own grading if they are buying RAW from CL.

 

BTW, if CL makes a seller a 'dealer' he is essentially saying that the seller can place books up there provided that they have passed through an initial 'screening' process. Once passed, the seller can place RAW books on CL without a CL screen (subject to site interpretation). Whose not to say that they pass the screening and then place overgraded books up there? I may have mis-interpreted the site, maybe Josh can explain. That was my interpretation, but I am just a protocol droid who can communicate in over 1million forms of dialect.

 

The solution: only sell certified material.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I don't want to play devil's advocate here, but if YOU can't tell the difference between a 8.5 and a 9.4, but rather need CGC to validate the grade, you shouldn't be buying raw from anyone (and consequently paying the high multiple). By the way, can you post a scan of the book? I'd be interested to see what it looks like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Murph]

Definately makes that big run of raw books that just went up on Comiclink that much less appealing. As if the prices on them, didn't do that enough already

 

Brian

[drice6900]

I don't want to play devil's advocate here, but if YOU can't tell the difference between a 8.5 and a 9.4, but rather need CGC to validate the grade, you shouldn't be buying raw from anyone (and consequently paying the high multiple). By the way, can you post a scan of the book? I'd be interested to see what it looks like.

 

Please re-read my post: I only buy raw from reputable dealers, and have had very few problems. Here is a scan:

 

[sterlingcomics]

The scan's dark, but I see a UL crease that breaks color. Some top 'overhanging' typical of Marvels...a couple of spine creases that don't break color.... How does the back cover look? (can't see bottom corners).

 

Press and resubmit. I hear it's not restoration.

[drice6900]

Yep, there is a crease in the upper left corner, some stress around the top staple. Back cover is pretty clean (some light dirt near top).

[Aces]

That top spine corner should have been a dead give away that's not a 9.4.

Was it like that before you sent it into CGC?

[Darthdiesel]

5 spinal creases that don't break color and an ulc crease that does?

[sterlingcomics]

Yep, there is a crease in the upper left corner, some stress around the top staple. Back cover is pretty clean (some light dirt near top).

 

Sorry, scratch that, make it a press and dry clean.

 

Seinfeld: Tuck or no tuck? On second thought, make it a tuck.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

That top spine corner should have been a dead give away that's not a 9.4.

 

Agreed. I didn't mean to sound harsh in my original post, but the scan clearly shows its not a 9.4. Chalk it up to experience, and try again another day.

[sfilosa]

Quick Points:

 

1) The six-day return policy is for you (YES YOU), to see the book and decide if you want to keep it or not. It is obviously not meant to give you time to send the book to CGC, get the book graded and THEN determine if you want to keep the book. If the book had come back with some type of restoration, I would then say you have a stronger point (since even experienced graders can't always determine if there has been restoration).

 

2) Differences in grading is why I STOPPED collecting comic books five years ago, and just started collecting again in the past year. I will rarely buy a book that's not CGC'd unless it is relatively inexpensive or the scan is HUGE.

 

3) There is a reason that CGC 9.4 books sell for a HUGE PREMIUM. It is not because they are NM, it is because they are CGC CERTIFIED NM. It makes no sense to pay close to CGC NM prices for books that AREN'T CGC'd.

 

The book that you bought could PROBABLY have been bought in CGC 9.4 for the same price as what you paid for a RAW copy and CGC Grading Fees. Therefore, unless you actually expected that the book would grade HIGHER than CGC 9.4, you only left yourself with DOWNSIDE RISK.

 

Sorry this transaction didn't work out for you. But prior to CGC, this is how I felt about 9 out of 10 of my transactions. Now with CGC, I have choices.

 

[Red Hook]

Hi Drice,

 

Reposting this for you after pumping up the brightness a bit.

 

Red

 

[COI]

There is a reason that CGC 9.4 books sell for a HUGE PREMIUM. It is not because they are NM, it is because they are CGC CERTIFIED NM. It makes no sense to pay close to CGC NM prices for books that AREN'T CGC'd.

 

I agree with this statement for high grade collectors who like/collect CGC graded books. But many collectors still want to collect raw, and a major dealer listing this kind of over-grade with a price tag that's over guide, is just BS for such a large dealer. I don't think it would be a huge problem for Josh to rectify a $120 transaction on such a gross over-grade. VF+ to NM 9.4 is just to big of a gap, IMO.

[jkrk]

I don't blame Josh. He is only receiving a 10% commission. Looking at the book will take too much time and hurt the profit margins. You should use our service: Here are the rates:

 

a) 10% for a guarenteed grade. For that nominal fee I will guarentee that you will receive a grade.

b) 10% charge to count the pages. For annuals add an extra 1% per page.

c) 2% for each staple check. Max 3. I will inspect a fourth or fifth for No add'l charge.

d) 8% to insure that no coupons are missing. The charge will be increased to 15% if I find any missing. Hey, I'm saving you money. You can return the book and receive a full refund (assuming you can do it in the allotted time).

e) 20% to look under the microscope for transverse creases. Someone has to pay for the high tech equipment.

f) 10% handling. The better the book is packed the longer it will take to cut through the box without damaging the book.

g) 6% weighing. Most graders check for trim size. We check the weight of the book. This is a new feature that gives us the edge on most.

h)35% restoration check. Yes the fee is high but if you take all our services we will buy the book back from you at the price you paid less our fees.

 

Don't hesitate to use us. To date no one has complained about our service only our prices.

[acesilver]

Drice I feel your pain! I had a similar experience a couple of years ago with a different dealer. Although it wasn't an issue on the return. Just the slabbed grade vs. the raw grade proved off by at least 2 grade levels for the two books I had purchased. That probably was the last time I bought a raw HG.

 

After seeing the board post yesterday about Josh's recent additions I checked it out. There were several books that interested me. Yet they were all raw. With neither a scan or page quality provided. I called Josh to ask if a scan could be provided. He said he'd see what he could do but it didn't sound like it would be pursued much IMO. His recommendation was to buy the book and send it back within the 6-day return window if there was a problem. It's the old toss-up on taking a chance on finding a raw gem. Or, as it usually seems to end up, wasting time and $ having to ship books back that don't cut it.

 

Anyone else bothered by the lack of scans or page quality comments on these raw listings? I understand that Josh can't provide what he doesn't have but come on.

[FFB]

DRice, I agree with those who say you should have known this was not a 9.4 before you sent it in. I'm no fan of Comiclink, but this is a book you should have known was not a 9.4.

 

I can't say I blame Comiclink for not guaranteeing that a book will get a CGC grade equivalent to what is represented. With a 6 day return policy, that is enough time to get the book, look it over, and send it back if it doesn't meet the grade. This book wasn't even close.

 

I am sorry if this sounds harsh and I am sympathetic to the fact that the ultimate blame lies with the seller for misrepresenting the condition of the book. But it's not fair to blame Comiclink for this one.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Although it wasn't an issue on the return. Just the slabbed grade vs. the raw grade proved off by at least 2 grade levels for the two books I had purchased. That probably was the last time I bought a raw HG.

 

Most of the Forum members are very tight graders, and have enough submissions under their belts to be able to seperate a 9.0 from a 9.2 from a 9.4. You can always buy raw from us.

[drice6900]

Good comments all - please note that I accept that I should have kept a closer eye on the book when I received it from CL, I just wanted to share the experience I had in case someone else is considering buying an ungraded book from them. As someone else noted, their raw books are not scanned for review first, you have to purchase and then go through the whole return business with them if you are not happy. Seems like Josh could take some steps to firm this up - don't you think?

 

And thanks for fixing that scan Redhook - is that considered restoration?