Avengers #4 Extremely Undervalued because its a #4 not a #1

[Foolkiller]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

Technically though, the SA Flash and GL were different characters with brand new origins etc. Cap/Subby were "revived" characters, but the same ones with the same origins etc.

[oakman29]

If you were talking about Caps real 1st app.(GA) then hands down,but AV #4 is not a true 1st app. while JIM #83,ToS #39 etc. are true 1st app.

[tortoise]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

SC4 1st app of baryy allen, SC 22 1st app Hal Jordan

Av 4 isnt Steve Rogers 1st app

[Green]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

Technically though, the SA Flash and GL were different characters with brand new origins etc. Cap/Subby were "revived" characters, but the same ones with the same origins etc.

I was even going to add that i thought it was just a carry over effect from the early SA DC characters that were actually new characters assuming old mantles.

[Foolkiller]

If you were talking about Caps real 1st app.(GA) then hands down,but AV #4 is not a true 1st app. while JIM #83,ToS #39 etc. are true 1st app.

 

And?

 

First appearance does not equal key. Is Brother Voodoo's first appearance more important than Avengers 4?

 

The reason why you rate the "first appearance" so highly is their significance to the Marvel U.

 

And I'd like all you folks to look back and think whether, until recently, TOS 39 was such an "uber key". Nobody was clamoring for IM's first appearance until the character first appeared in the movies. It was always a nice book, but if you're talking about popularity, Avengers 4 has been the more popular and more significant book. Now more available in high grade? Well, it's certainly not as scarce as TOS 39....

 

But I'm not sure when first appearance became the most significant criteria for a key. It's a very big factor, but the first SA appearance of a character, in the context of SA characters, is just as important as the first appearance anywhere.

[SAGAT]

If you were talking about Caps real 1st app.(GA) then hands down,but AV #4 is not a true 1st app. while JIM #83,ToS #39 etc. are true 1st app.

 

Showcase 4 and 22 are not true 1st app either so they shouldn't be up on the list either. In terms of silver age relevance Cap beats out Thor and Shellhead. He's the leader who cries "Avengers Assemble!" not the other 2 characters.

Gotta hit the sack now, the 9-5pm b.s awaits me tomorrow.

[Foolkiller]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

SC4 1st app of baryy allen, SC 22 1st app Kyle Raynor

Av 4 isnt Steve Rogers 1st app

 

uh, you mean Hal Jordan in SC 22

[tortoise]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

SC4 1st app of baryy allen, SC 22 1st app Kyle Raynor

Av 4 isnt Steve Rogers 1st app

 

uh, you mean Hal Jordan in SC 22

 

yep, Hal not Kyle

[oakman29]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

[Mac Man]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

SC4 1st app of baryy allen, SC 22 1st app Kyle Raynor

Av 4 isnt Steve Rogers 1st app

 

uh, you mean Hal Jordan in SC 22

 

Whew! I know I don't know my SA DC all that well but I was pretty sure it was Hal.

 

And for what it's worth Brian, while I placed Avengers 4 as the top end of the second tier, and I far prefer to it JIM 83 or Avengers 1. Sorry, but machine gun toting aliens air assaulting out of the sky or the dynamic cover of A4? No contest. And then there's the splash pages! Again, no comparison for me (though the JIM splash isn't bad). Avengers 1 is ok but FF 1 gets credit for the first Marvel super group and everyone else in that book had been around so no new ground broke there.

 

I will openly admit to the fact that my sole reason for bumping it down half a step to behind the other big keys is that up until movie hype, this book was quite affordable in low grade--something the other keys did not have as a characteristic. Again, that's come from the bottom end of the collecting pool (GD and Lower). ToS 39 and JIM 83 could not be had for under $300 in GD condition but a copy of A4 could be had for under $99 without much work. Even the much-neglected Daredevil 1 can't be found for under $100 in 2.0 let alone FR/GD.

[Foolkiller]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

[Mac Man]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Just a point of clarification then, if you don't mind: Since supply is not a factor for a key book, then I'm assuming you would not necessarily equate a key book to a "blue chip" book (relegating key status to historical significance only and not to be used in a financial way then)?

[Foolkiller]

It's a key, no doubt...but as Mac Man said above, it's in the second tier of keys behind the big boys of the SA:

 

 

AF#15

FF#1

Hulk#1

TOS#39

JIM#83

 

Would you rate AV#4 above other second tier keys like Daredevil #1, Strange Tales #110, TTA#27?

Below all of them. Ive always wondered why people even care about 'first SA appearance of xxxxx'

 

then we can get into argument about Flash and GL they started in Golden age. We're talkin Silver Age relevance only.

 

SC4 1st app of baryy allen, SC 22 1st app Kyle Raynor

Av 4 isnt Steve Rogers 1st app

 

uh, you mean Hal Jordan in SC 22

 

Whew! I know I don't know my SA DC all that well but I was pretty sure it was Hal.

 

And for what it's worth Brian, while I placed Avengers 4 as the top end of the second tier, and I far prefer to it JIM 83 or Avengers 1. Sorry, but machine gun toting aliens air assaulting out of the sky or the dynamic cover of A4? No contest. And then there's the splash pages! Again, no comparison for me (though the JIM splash isn't bad). Avengers 1 is ok but FF 1 gets credit for the first Marvel super group and everyone else in that book had been around so no new ground broke there.

 

I will openly admit to the fact that my sole reason for bumping it down half a step to behind the other big keys is that up until movie hype, this book was quite affordable in low grade--something the other keys did not have as a characteristic. Again, that's come from the bottom end of the collecting pool (GD and Lower). ToS 39 and JIM 83 could not be had for under $300 in GD condition but a copy of A4 could be had for under $99 without much work. Even the much-neglected Daredevil 1 can't be found for under $100 in 2.0 let alone FR/GD.

 

As I mentioned just now above, value and scarcity are not primary factors in determining a key to me. It is because a book is desired and sought after that it becomes valuable. Whether it is scarce is not a factor to me on whether it is a key (see every Platinum age book most people don't care about).

 

What determines a "key" is something significant happens in the book in the historical context of the given comic book universe. Now generally, we say that a first appearance of a significant character is the most important event. I'd generally agree with that. But "reappearances" and "first appearances" when you are talking about GA to SA are essentially the same thing. Whether Cap "first appeared" in Av. 4 is largely irrelevant -- his reintroduction was essentially a complete restart and reboot of the character. He took on a new role with an entirely reshaped personality (man out of time). He became the cornerstone of the Marvel Universe and I'd argue outside of Spidey, the FF and the Hulk there is no more important a character in the Marvel U outside of Captain America.

 

That fits the very definition of how you would determine if the book is "key" or not. The definition of key does not suddenly become tied to the fact that it's hard to find, or that it's worth money, nor would I rate it's significance solely based on popularity skyrocketing in the short term (i.e. was ASM 129 a more important key than TOS 39 back in the late 80s/early 90s? Because Punisher sure was sought after by more people and arguably the Punisher had a much wider impact at that time, but not when you looked at the Marvel U in context),.

 

My point is, there's all these criteria being thrown around, muddying the definition of a key -- and a key is a significant event that occurs in the context of comic book or that universe's history.

[Foolkiller]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Just a point of clarification then, if you don't mind: Since supply is not a factor for a key book, then I'm assuming you would not necessarily equate a key book to a "blue chip" book (relegating key status to historical significance only and not to be used in a financial way then)?

 

Right. A "key" historically has always (as I explained above) is really about the event as it happens in context -- value follows that (i.e. demand for that particular book because of the significance of the event to comics, pop culture etc.). The reason why TOS 39 is suddenly more valuable is that IM is now more relevant to our culture, thus is fist appearance is more "key". 10 years ago, to me, IM is important, but not that popular OR all that important in the grand scheme of the Marvel U. Sure, he's a founding member and important, but not as important as Cap, Spidey, Hulk, or probably even Wolverine. Now, there's some alteration.

 

If supply was a factor, or a significant factor, then the most rare books would be the biggest keys. But most people don't really care about Double Action 2, it's just a rare cool book, not a key.

[oakman29]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Thats a very good point,but still think ToS 39 would trump AV#4 in relevancy,but

AV #4 in popularity.Thats what makes this hobby so wonderful,we can collect and have opinions.Really I don't care whats more important,I want them all.They are both key books,just to me not as key as the big books AF15,FF1,Hulk1,X-Men1,JIM 83 AND ToS 39 those are my holy grails,yours may be different.

[NP_Gresham]

Reminds me of a special orders speech on CSPAN

.....

[Mac Man]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Just a point of clarification then, if you don't mind: Since supply is not a factor for a key book, then I'm assuming you would not necessarily equate a key book to a "blue chip" book (relegating key status to historical significance only and not to be used in a financial way then)?

 

Right. A "key" historically has always (as I explained above) is really about the event as it happens in context -- value follows that (i.e. demand for that particular book because of the significance of the event to comics, pop culture etc.). The reason why TOS 39 is suddenly more valuable is that IM is now more relevant to our culture, thus is fist appearance is more "key". 10 years ago, to me, IM is important, but not that popular OR all that important in the grand scheme of the Marvel U. Sure, he's a founding member and important, but not as important as Cap, Spidey, Hulk, or probably even Wolverine. Now, there's some alteration.

 

If supply was a factor, or a significant factor, then the most rare books would be the biggest keys. But most people don't really care about Double Action 2, it's just a rare cool book, not a key.

 

Well, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we're too far off from one another re: our views on this book--especially if you take a gander at my rationale for why ASM 1 is a top tier SA key. Exact same frame of logic. For me, I do believe value and supply factor into a book being a key but if I were to simply look at it without that monetary (not demand, just monetary) value factored in, then by my own definitions of keys books, A4 would naturally be bumped up.

 

But as I tell my students, an A- is still in the A range and not all that different from a solid A.

 

(thumbs u

[Foolkiller]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Thats a very good point,but still think ToS 39 would trump AV#4 in relevancy,but

AV #4 in popularity.Thats what makes this hobby so wonderful,we can collect and have opinions.Really I don't care whats more important,I want them all.They are both key books,just to me not as key as the big books AF15,FF1,Hulk1,X-Men1,JIM 83 AND ToS 39 those are my holy grails,yours may be different.

 

If you took IM's movie appearance out of the equation (because Cap will have a movie soon too), why is TOS 39 more relevant? Think back about IM's general history in the Marvel U compared to Cap's significance.

[Foolkiller]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Just a point of clarification then, if you don't mind: Since supply is not a factor for a key book, then I'm assuming you would not necessarily equate a key book to a "blue chip" book (relegating key status to historical significance only and not to be used in a financial way then)?

 

Right. A "key" historically has always (as I explained above) is really about the event as it happens in context -- value follows that (i.e. demand for that particular book because of the significance of the event to comics, pop culture etc.). The reason why TOS 39 is suddenly more valuable is that IM is now more relevant to our culture, thus is fist appearance is more "key". 10 years ago, to me, IM is important, but not that popular OR all that important in the grand scheme of the Marvel U. Sure, he's a founding member and important, but not as important as Cap, Spidey, Hulk, or probably even Wolverine. Now, there's some alteration.

 

If supply was a factor, or a significant factor, then the most rare books would be the biggest keys. But most people don't really care about Double Action 2, it's just a rare cool book, not a key.

 

Well, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think we're too far off from one another re: our views on this book--especially if you take a gander at my rationale for why ASM 1 is a top tier SA key. Exact same frame of logic. For me, I do believe value and supply factor into a book being a key but if I were to simply look at it without that monetary (not demand, just monetary) value factored in, then by my own definitions of keys books, A4 would naturally be bumped up.

 

But as I tell my students, an A- is still in the A range and not all that different from a solid A.

 

(thumbs u

 

I guess for me, tying value and supply in puts the cart before the horse (Action 1 and Tec 27 are the biggest keys and happen to be the toughest books) -- but it suddenly dawned on people that Batman 1 had the Joker's first appearance. I remember when Metro had like 8 Bat 1s on their wall in the 2000s -- and the reason it suddenly shot up in value and relative scarcity was because people suddenly wanted it -- for that first appearance, not just because it was a Bat 1. Bat 1 isn't considered (relatively speaking) to be a "rare" book, but by any standards a huge key.

 

I realize I'm arguing a lot of semantics. I'm only doing so because "keys" need to first have the parameters defined. I think that here on the boards, people analyze key tied into value and scarcity, but the general reading population I think concerns itself more with what happens in the book.

 

Whether Avengers 4 is an A- or an A probably is just a matter of splitting hairs either way, but I believe in fighting even the little battles for my boy Cap.

[oakman29]

I'm not disputing the relevancy of the book,hope to one day own an AV#4.As far as Iron Mans 1st app. relevancy and popularity are two different things,I'm good with the whole thing.Major keys,minor keys I want them all.

 

The foundation of my point though, is that until recently, for both relevancy and popularity, you would have rated Av. 4 ahead of TOS 39 in my opinion. The only thing I would have given the nod to TOS 39 on was scarcity, a factor that I think should not go into whether a book is "key" or not.

 

Thats a very good point,but still think ToS 39 would trump AV#4 in relevancy,but

AV #4 in popularity.Thats what makes this hobby so wonderful,we can collect and have opinions.Really I don't care whats more important,I want them all.They are both key books,just to me not as key as the big books AF15,FF1,Hulk1,X-Men1,JIM 83 AND ToS 39 those are my holy grails,yours may be different.

 

If you took IM's movie appearance out of the equation (because Cap will have a movie soon too), why is TOS 39 more relevant? Think back about IM's general history in the Marvel U compared to Cap's significance.

 

I have felt this way even before the IM movies.Caps significance is as huge as a character can get,if we are talking his GA 1st app.yes one of THE most relevant characters ever.AV#4 not so much for me,does'nt mean I dont want to own one.