$1000 is handed to you to invest long-term in CGC Copper Age what do you do?

[Gatsby77]

Further, books become more or less important over time. Batman 428 fell off in significance as soon as Tim Drake was introduced, and then again when Jason Todd ceased to be dead.

 

I'll defer to someone who was actively collecting in the mid-80s, but I don't see how you can claim the death of Jason Todd was more important to Batman in the context of the 1980s than his introduction--a new Robin after 150 issues of the first solo Batman since the Golden Age. For me, his stint as Robin defines Copper Age Batman just as the black suit largely defines Copper Age Spider-Man.

 

And today, the Dark Knight Returns, Year One, and Killing Joke are all more important because of their influence on Chris Nolan's Batman films. 20 years later, those films have shaped the public's current perception of Batman far more than any individual comic book, and both Nolan and Heath Ledger have cited those specific arcs as heavy influences on the movies.

[oakman29]

All I know is that DKR and The Killing Joke were amazing,and I just now in this thread heard of Batman 428 being a significant book,and yes I did read comics in the 80s

[RockMyAmadeus]

the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

 

you sir, are high or a coinee. or not collecting at the time. or all three

 

You're simply flat out 100,000% wrong to call that the most important bat book of the 1980s.

 

So, do you imagine it's Dark Knight Returns?

 

Close, but not quite. DKR #1 was an industry hit, but nobody knew about it who didn't already buy comics.

 

It's also not Killing Joke, because, in the end, that's not a Bat book...it's a Joker book, and it's an Alan Moore book.

 

It's certainly not Legends of the Dark Knight #1.

 

That leaves essentially Bats #319-442, 'Tec #490-609, plus B&B up to #200, Batman & the Outsiders, and that's about it.

 

Batman #428 did what no book had done since Conan #1 in 1970, and what no other book would do until 2000 with Ultimate Spiderman #1: it rose faster and higher in price than any book outside of those two, and became the most demanded new back issue for over a year.

 

As well, it was the most important book DC produced from a media standpoint since...well, who knows? And until Superman #75, it was the most famous DC book in recent memory.

 

And even if you disagree and think DKR #1 is a more important book (even though it got zero coverage by the media), Bats #428 is clearly #2...which is a far, far cry from being "100,000% wrong."

 

 

So.....which is it?

 

media coverage does not equal importance.

 

That is without a doubt not true. Without media coverage, Superman #75 would have been nothing. Captain America #25 would have been even less than nothing.

 

When an event in our insular industry makes news to the larger world, it's a very big thing indeed. When people come off the streets to check out what's happened in the comics world, that's hugely important. It's not something that happens every day, after all, or even every year.

 

sure the death of robin made for a cutesy easy to understand story in the newspaper. but that book had little to no creative impact on the industry. The only impact it had was pushing us a little further down the gimmick train towards the collapse of the industry.

 

"Creative impact" is but one facet of importance. And when you get right down to it, Batman #428 defined the Bat books for the next two decades. Without the death of Jason Todd, we would not have Tim Drake. Without Tim Drake, the direction Batman took...including Azrael, Bane...would have been radically different.

 

both DKR and KJ and Year 1 would rank ahead, off the top of my head without taking any time to really think about it. Joker book? He may be the focus but I've never seen a joker book that wasn't also a bat book.

 

There's a whole 9 issue series from 1975 that aren't batbooks.

 

And, of course, The Dark Knight is FOUR issues, as is Year One. Yes, Bats #428 is part of Death in the Family, but the actual death of Jason Todd is clearly the focal point of the series. The same cannot be said of the other two.

 

So if you want to call it the most publicized bat book of the 1980s go right ahead. But it was an OK story and not something that changed the whole course of the industry a la DKR. The way importance is usually talked about here is either a) historical importance or more likely b) creative importance. This book had neither.

 

Sorry, but Batman #428 is the most important BAT book...it is the one book that not only achieved huge success on its own merits, but altered the entire continuity of the Batman line to the present day. If that's not historical importance, what is...?

 

Dark Knight Returns didn't do that. Year One didn't do that. Killing Joke did to an extent, but it had far more of an effect on BatGIRL than Batman.

 

I'll certainly grant you that DK #1 is a more important BOOK overall...but it's not because it was a BATMAN book. It's because of Frank Miller.

 

Someone, I think Keith Contarino, wrote in an Overstreet Update round about late 1989, that Dark Knight Returns and its 1986 hype was all about Frank Miller, the creator....while Batman #428 and the ensuing Year of the Bat was all about BATMAN, the character.

 

I'd have to agree.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Further, books become more or less important over time. Batman 428 fell off in significance as soon as Tim Drake was introduced, and then again when Jason Todd ceased to be dead.

 

Um. Ok.

 

 

There's no way Batman #428 became "less important" with the intro of Tim Drake. That's opposed to logic. The reason Tim Drake even EXISTS is BECAUSE of Batman #428.

 

I guess you don't understand the idea that a book transcends a character. Very few people care that Jason Todd is back. Jason Todd is no longer Robin. And it was ROBIN who died in Batman #428, even if it was Jason Todd wearing the costume (you really should read a Lonely Place of Dying if you haven't already...this concept is excellently explored in that series.)

 

What is the most important X-Book of the 1980's? What's the book that defined the tone and direction of that series for years beyond it? Easy. X-Men #137.

 

Last time I checked, Jean Grey was alive again, then dead, and she may be alive once more, I dunno. But that still doesn't change X-Men #137's status, any more than Norman Osborn being still around changes Spidey #122's status.

 

Same with Crisis #7, #8, Superman #75, etc.

 

I'll defer to someone who was actively collecting in the mid-80s, but I don't see how you can claim the death of Jason Todd was more important to Batman in the context of the 1980s than his introduction--a new Robin after 150 issues of the first solo Batman since the Golden Age. For me, his stint as Robin defines Copper Age Batman just as the black suit largely defines Copper Age Spider-Man.

 

It's not the death of Jason Todd that is important. It's the death of ROBIN. Jason Todd's intro is fairly unimportant. In fact, the vast majority of people who were not into comics at the time would not have been able to tell you that Grayson was no longer Robin.

 

Jason Todd as a character was further diluted because of his ridiculous and wholesale "post-Crisis" alteration. The fact that he was a circus performer whose origin just happened to coincide with Grayson's is bad enough...but to retcon the character into a street hood who manages to steal the Batmobile's tires ( :screy: ) was beyond silly. Nobody cared about Jason Todd, which is a large reason why readers who voted to kill him did so. If Robin had been Grayson, there's no way he would have been offed. But people just didn't care about Jason Todd.

 

And today, the Dark Knight Returns, Year One, and Killing Joke are all more important because of their influence on Chris Nolan's Batman films. 20 years later, those films have shaped the public's current perception of Batman far more than any individual comic book, and both Nolan and Heath Ledger have cited those specific arcs as heavy influences on the movies.

 

Yeah, so? Films, you may have noticed, have little effect on comics continuity. They are so different, they may as well be different characters that happen to share the same name. You will find very little of Christian Bale's Batman...or George Clooney's or Val Kilmer's or Michael Keaton's Batmen...in comics. Though Nolan may have been "influenced" by Dark Knight and Killing Joke, you will not find any of the plot of either of those stories in his films. There's a passing nod to Year One, but not in any way that people not intimately familiar with the story would recognize.

 

George Lucas cites John Carter, Warlord of Mars, as a major influence for Star Wars....did that make John Carter, Warlord of Mars a more important story than it already was?

 

Nope.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'll boil it down to Reader's Digest summation:

 

Batman #428 is the pivot on which the entire Bat universe rotated between the 1980's and the 90's and beyond. Without Batman #428, the entire Bat universe would have been radically different. The introduction of Tim Drake allowed creators to explore facets of the characters that had remained untouched, and opened doors that likely would not have been opened otherwise. Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters.

 

Year One was brilliant. It did not, however, change anything about Bat continuity (with the possible exception of Selina Kyle.)

 

Dark Knight was brilliant. It did not, however, change anything about Bat continuity (obviously, since it was set in the future.)

 

Killing Joke DID have some effect on Batman continuity, but it was restricted mostly to Batgirl.

[supapimp]

so how many bats 428 are you sitting on?

[RockMyAmadeus]

so how many bats 428 are you sitting on?

 

About 75.

 

 

But I already sold all my 9.8s.

[Gatsby77]

How can you go in one post from saying "It's not the death of Jason Todd that is important. It's the death of ROBIN" and noting (correctly) that "the vast majority of people who were not into comics at the time would not have been able to tell you that *spoon* Grayson was no longer Robin"

 

to then say,"Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters."

 

Either Robin is Robin, and it doesn't matter who wears the mask, or the moment Tim Drake became Robin Batman 428 ceased being the death of "Robin" and simply became the death of "Jason Todd."

 

Had Tim Drake not been introduced, and there were still no Robin in the DCU 20+ years later, then 428 would clearly be the most significant bat book of the last 30 years.

 

He was; it's not.

 

Note also that the CGC label for 428 states "Death" of Robin II (Jason Todd), as they acknowledge he's no longer dead.

 

 

[whetteon]

Where would I put my money instead? Tick Special Editions, the TMNT 1 I already mentioned,

 

Oh, and since you mentioned these....

 

Turtles #1 is down nearly 30% from its 2007 high in 9.6, and more than 30% off it's 2005 high in 9.4. What's more, there have only been a combined total of 35 copies (Universal) sold in the last TWO YEARS in EVERY condition, with record prices being achieved right now in the mid-grade range.

 

It makes no sense to buy at the top, or near it, and an available pool of only 35 copies in every single grade does not make a solid "investment" pick. For items to be "a good investment", they have to be reasonably obtainable by the average person for market prices. If you cannot obtain a copy without paying a premium for it, that defeats the point of it as an investment.

 

As for the Ticks, they fare even worse. A grand total of 22 CGC copies of #1 and 15 (!) copies of #2, in ANY grade, have been sold since GPA started keeping records in 2002. A 9.8 copy hasn't sold for almost a year and a half. Only 4 copies of the book, in any grade, have come up for sale in the last year. We can't even analyze these sales because the data is so scarce. How does one invest in a book they cannot buy......?

 

That knife you wielded...it cuts both ways.

 

I bought the Ticks #1 and #2 in high grade a couple years back when they went up for sell. I have no regrets. (thumbs u

[Lazyboy]

How can you go in one post from saying "It's not the death of Jason Todd that is important. It's the death of ROBIN" and noting (correctly) that "the vast majority of people who were not into comics at the time would not have been able to tell you that *spoon* Grayson was no longer Robin"

 

to then say,"Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters."

 

Either Robin is Robin, and it doesn't matter who wears the mask, or the moment Tim Drake became Robin Batman 428 ceased being the death of "Robin" and simply became the death of "Jason Todd."

 

Had Tim Drake not been introduced, and there were still no Robin in the DCU 20+ years later, then 428 would clearly be the most significant bat book of the last 30 years.

 

He was; it's not.

 

Note also that the CGC label for 428 states "Death" of Robin II (Jason Todd), as they acknowledge he's no longer dead.

 

 

Your last sentence is a non-argument since the death of any character, no matter how dead, is noted as a "Death" on the CGC label.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Regardless of the controversy and not to get to off-topic, Red Hood has become cool,one of my favorites of late and I could see him giving Deadpool a run for his money in the future. How this plays into the future value of Batman #428 I have no idea.

[500Club]

Not sure I like this argument, Rocky. Minimal extant copies hasn't stopped books and other collectibles from being investments in the past.

 

Sure it has.

 

If something is functionally unobtainable, it cannot be used as an example of "what to invest in."

 

Consider OA. What's a good piece to invest in? Let's say the original cover to Amazing Fantasy #15. Well, good idea....except that piece resides in a permanent national collection, and is unobtainable at ANY price. Certainly would be a good investment though, right?

 

That's why the fine art market talks so little about "investment potential." Sure, one of Picasso's Blue Period paintings would make a FINE investment...now what do you tell everybody but the one person who bought that one piece that's come up in the last 5 years what *they* should invest in?

 

Investments should be reasonably obtainable by any investor with the cash available for the going market price. If an item is so rare that it only comes up for sale a couple dozen times over the span of years, that's not something that will be a readily obtainable investment.

 

In other words, if every person reading this, with the cash available to purchase it, isn't able to do just that in the next week or so, it can't be good investment "advice", because it cannot be acted upon by many....or even a few...of those being so advised.

 

This argument all depends on the amount of money available to invest. $3000? A couple of nice copies of TMNT could be found. To wit, see the SDCC dealer wall display pic with several CGC copies. $300,000? In this case, you are correct - the 'float' is not large enough.

[500Club]

I'll boil it down to Reader's Digest summation:

 

Batman #428 is the pivot on which the entire Bat universe rotated between the 1980's and the 90's and beyond. Without Batman #428, the entire Bat universe would have been radically different. The introduction of Tim Drake allowed creators to explore facets of the characters that had remained untouched, and opened doors that likely would not have been opened otherwise. Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters.

 

Year One was brilliant. It did not, however, change anything about Bat continuity (with the possible exception of Selina Kyle.)

 

Dark Knight was brilliant. It did not, however, change anything about Bat continuity (obviously, since it was set in the future.)

 

Killing Joke DID have some effect on Batman continuity, but it was restricted mostly to Batgirl.

 

Your points are correct.

 

However, the market doesn't give a rat's . People are not clamoring for Batman 428 because it was an inflection point in the saga of Batman. Nor can I see it happening in the future.

 

Your most salient argument is the fact the book has 'passed into legend'. Whether the book becomes more irrelevant with every Red Hood tale is yet to be seen.

[Bronty]

the most important Bat book of the 1980's (yes, even beyond Dark Knight #1), and because of that, will always be an important key from that era.

 

you sir, are high or a coinee. or not collecting at the time. or all three

 

You're simply flat out 100,000% wrong to call that the most important bat book of the 1980s.

 

So, do you imagine it's Dark Knight Returns?

 

Close, but not quite. DKR #1 was an industry hit, but nobody knew about it who didn't already buy comics.

 

It's also not Killing Joke, because, in the end, that's not a Bat book...it's a Joker book, and it's an Alan Moore book.

 

It's certainly not Legends of the Dark Knight #1.

 

That leaves essentially Bats #319-442, 'Tec #490-609, plus B&B up to #200, Batman & the Outsiders, and that's about it.

 

Batman #428 did what no book had done since Conan #1 in 1970, and what no other book would do until 2000 with Ultimate Spiderman #1: it rose faster and higher in price than any book outside of those two, and became the most demanded new back issue for over a year.

 

As well, it was the most important book DC produced from a media standpoint since...well, who knows? And until Superman #75, it was the most famous DC book in recent memory.

 

And even if you disagree and think DKR #1 is a more important book (even though it got zero coverage by the media), Bats #428 is clearly #2...which is a far, far cry from being "100,000% wrong."

 

 

So.....which is it?

 

media coverage does not equal importance.

 

That is without a doubt not true. Without media coverage, Superman #75 would have been nothing. Captain America #25 would have been even less than nothing.

 

When an event in our insular industry makes news to the larger world, it's a very big thing indeed. When people come off the streets to check out what's happened in the comics world, that's hugely important. It's not something that happens every day, after all, or even every year.

 

sure the death of robin made for a cutesy easy to understand story in the newspaper. but that book had little to no creative impact on the industry. The only impact it had was pushing us a little further down the gimmick train towards the collapse of the industry.

 

"Creative impact" is but one facet of importance. And when you get right down to it, Batman #428 defined the Bat books for the next two decades. Without the death of Jason Todd, we would not have Tim Drake. Without Tim Drake, the direction Batman took...including Azrael, Bane...would have been radically different.

 

both DKR and KJ and Year 1 would rank ahead, off the top of my head without taking any time to really think about it. Joker book? He may be the focus but I've never seen a joker book that wasn't also a bat book.

 

There's a whole 9 issue series from 1975 that aren't batbooks.

 

And, of course, The Dark Knight is FOUR issues, as is Year One. Yes, Bats #428 is part of Death in the Family, but the actual death of Jason Todd is clearly the focal point of the series. The same cannot be said of the other two.

 

So if you want to call it the most publicized bat book of the 1980s go right ahead. But it was an OK story and not something that changed the whole course of the industry a la DKR. The way importance is usually talked about here is either a) historical importance or more likely b) creative importance. This book had neither.

 

Sorry, but Batman #428 is the most important BAT book...it is the one book that not only achieved huge success on its own merits, but altered the entire continuity of the Batman line to the present day. If that's not historical importance, what is...?

 

Dark Knight Returns didn't do that. Year One didn't do that. Killing Joke did to an extent, but it had far more of an effect on BatGIRL than Batman.

 

I'll certainly grant you that DK #1 is a more important BOOK overall...but it's not because it was a BATMAN book. It's because of Frank Miller.

 

Someone, I think Keith Contarino, wrote in an Overstreet Update round about late 1989, that Dark Knight Returns and its 1986 hype was all about Frank Miller, the creator....while Batman #428 and the ensuing Year of the Bat was all about BATMAN, the character.

 

I'd have to agree.

 

Its OK amadeus.... I can completely handle your being irretrievably wrong. Doesn't bother me one bit

 

I will give you the point about the 9 issue 70s series. However the rest of your argument is so out there frankly I can't spend the time on it If you set the time machine back 20 years and ask 20 people at a comic con which is the more important book I don't think you'd get a single person saying batman 428. For that matter I think you could do the same test today. Unless, of course, you happened to be attending that particular convention. In that case DKR might only get 19 votes.

[Gatsby77]

Hey look--a pair of Tick Special Editions 1 and 2 in slabbed 9.4 sold tonight on Ebay! And another two raw sets as well!

 

I didn't get 'em since I was able to score my copies cheaper. Any of you get one?

 

I hear they're so rare you should just give up on looking for copies.

 

[Bosco685]

Hey look--a pair of Tick Special Editions 1 and 2 in slabbed 9.4 sold tonight on Ebay!

 

I didn't get 'em since I was able to score my copies cheaper. Any of you get one or both?

 

I hear they're so rare you should just give up on looking for copies.

 

The Tick Special 1-2 were both raw on Ebay, and then the same seller also auctioned off a Tick Special 2 CGC 9.4 on the same day.

 

TICK SPECIAL EDITION #1,2 both nm+

 

TICK #2 SPECIAL EDITION CGC 9.4

 

Both were bid on crazily by some folks that started early this morning, and hour-by-hour kept trying to beat each other out. It was fun to watch.

[Gatsby77]

My mistake...the CGC 9.4 # 1 was indeed sold last week. And the third raw set ended (reserve not met) on Friday.

[Bosco685]

My mistake...the CGC 9.4 # 1 was indeed sold last week.

Yes, it was.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

How can you go in one post from saying "It's not the death of Jason Todd that is important. It's the death of ROBIN" and noting (correctly) that "the vast majority of people who were not into comics at the time would not have been able to tell you that *spoon* Grayson was no longer Robin"

 

to then say,"Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters."

 

Quite easily. Here, watch, I'll do it again: Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters. And it was the death of ROBIN, not Jason Todd, that made issue #428 important.

 

Those two aren't conflicting in any way. For the latter, the death of Robin was important for the "outside world", the world that doesn't collect comics. To them, the book was important because it was the death of "a major DCU character"; in fact, the most major up to that time. For the former, getting rid of the cluttered, confused character who happened to be currently wearing the Robin costume at the time opened up a whole galaxy of plotlines and story ideas that carried the Bat books into the 90's and beyond.

 

It's really not that difficult to understand.

 

Either Robin is Robin, and it doesn't matter who wears the mask, or the moment Tim Drake became Robin Batman 428 ceased being the death of "Robin" and simply became the death of "Jason Todd."

 

Nope. See above.

 

Had Tim Drake not been introduced, and there were still no Robin in the DCU 20+ years later, then 428 would clearly be the most significant bat book of the last 30 years.

 

He was; it's not.

 

Then tell me what single Copper Bat book is more important to Batman continuity, and had a greater effect on the Bat universe..

 

I'll wait.....

 

Note also that the CGC label for 428 states "Death" of Robin II (Jason Todd), as they acknowledge he's no longer dead.

 

 

Nice bit of trivia, but irrelevant to the discussion.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'll boil it down to Reader's Digest summation:

 

Batman #428 is the pivot on which the entire Bat universe rotated between the 1980's and the 90's and beyond. Without Batman #428, the entire Bat universe would have been radically different. The introduction of Tim Drake allowed creators to explore facets of the characters that had remained untouched, and opened doors that likely would not have been opened otherwise. Jason Todd & Tim Drake are NOT interchangeable characters.

 

Year One was brilliant. It did not, however, change anything about Bat continuity (with the possible exception of Selina Kyle.)

 

Dark Knight was brilliant. It did not, however, change anything about Bat continuity (obviously, since it was set in the future.)

 

Killing Joke DID have some effect on Batman continuity, but it was restricted mostly to Batgirl.

 

Your points are correct.

 

However, the market doesn't give a rat's .

 

Granted.

 

Yet.