IF PRESSING ISN'T RESTORATION.....

[OldGuy]

Thanks Old Guy. I do have a question.......I still am not clear whether CGC actually claims they "CAN" detect professional pressing or not. Amateur sure, but is professional pressing to be considered any form of pressing that CGC can't detect?

 

My opinion is that if it's done right then CGC can't detect it. That's only my opinion, I don't know for sure, but you can ask Steve, I'm sure he'd tell you.

 

And secondly, if they CAN detect professional pressing, would it be listed in the graders notes? And could I call up with a serial number and get that information if I was so inclined?

 

To your second question, yes. You can call with a serial # and get the notes on any book from any of the graders. Steve offered to transfer me to someone that had time to do it, but I declined because it really doesn't matter IMO.

[Red Hook]

Thanks OG. But part of my question remains unanswered.....

 

Knowing that CGC does not consider professional pressing restoration, would they even bother to say anything about it in the graders notes? That's the crux, because if it was in the notes, then I would be able to call up the number and satisfy myself about a book.

[OldGuy]

You could call and find out if it's in the notes instead of wondering.

[Red Hook]

Me? Call CGC?.............whadda' concept! Actually, if I was at my regular computer station with the registration number of that DD 11 9.6 in hand I was going to do just that. I have a large scan of it on my other computer. Will check the old thread on it to see if I posted it there at any time.

 

Dead Red

[jbud73]

Ok, called Steve. First, I have to say that his memory for who I am impressed me. The guy must deal with 100 comic geeks a day and the fact that we've never met in person, but that he knew just who I was and asked how my family was impressed me. We had a nice personal conversation.

 

On the Marvel #1 issue: Steve didn't have time to look at the graders notes, he was on his way out when I called. He did say however that the book was probably borderline 8.5 - 9.0 to start with and a small crease being pressed out ("or something like that") could have been enough to change the grade. It could also have just been graded differently the second time with no changes.

 

I guess there really isn't much to add to that. Some days a diamond, some days a stone.

 

Hahaha as a former spin doctor I would have loved to hear that conversation to see how many techniques were used. Anyway of course they are going to say it was a borderline 8.5-9.0 did you expect him to say, ya know what we goofed the first time? Thats bad for business and I wouldnt have expected any other answer. The Batman trimming and Daredevil missing page are different - in those two cases there is solid proof they goofed and from a cost / benefit ratio blantant admission is redundant at that point and actually goes a long way to damage control. CGC folks is, to a large extent in the CONFIDENCE business, while not being Matchstick men, the confidence in their product MUST remain high at all times a fact of which Im sure they are all to aware.

 

Having worked for elected officials it sometimes horrifies me how many parallel's are apparent between my former occupation and the graded Collectables market. I have actually come to think of CGC and CGG in terms of incumbent and opposition

 

Oh well, I think that the graders notes would be interesting to understand the defects that were present and understand if they were condusive to the clean and press - wanna know where my hunch lies.

 

Personally is it just me or are there alot of high profile books being resubbed for higher grades lately this leads me to wonder how many books in general have been submitted for higher grades in the past 6-8 months. THAT WOULD BE A VERY INTERESTING STATISTIC TO SAY THE LEAST ESPECIALLY IF IT WERE COMPARED IN SAY 6 MONTH CYCLES TO DERIVE A TREND

- Wanna know what my hunches tell me about that one too

[Timely]

2) This is a perfect example of why this "clean, press and resub" trend sticks in my craw. The rich get richer, once again... not only can most collectors not afford to have their books cleaned and pressed professionally, it's a very small subset of collectors who can afford to "roll the dice" on truly high-dollar books in this way.

 

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

That statement will get a lot of flack from guys like Joe-Collector, but if you do a little soul-searching you will discover you are more upset about someone elses ability to do this rather than the fact that its already been done.

 

Timely

[THE_BEYONDER]

2) This is a perfect example of why this "clean, press and resub" trend sticks in my craw. The rich get richer, once again... not only can most collectors not afford to have their books cleaned and pressed professionally, it's a very small subset of collectors who can afford to "roll the dice" on truly high-dollar books in this way.

 

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

That statement will get a lot of flack from guys like Joe-Collector, but if you do a little soul-searching you will discover you are more upset about someone elses ability to do this rather than the fact that its already been done.

 

Timely

 

[joe_collector]

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

 

Man, you are too much, and your attempts at disarming the Press Bomb are quite amusing.

 

I haven't the time or inclination to sell any of my books, yet I'm supposedly jealous that I can't press them too?

[jbud73]

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

That statement will get a lot of flack from guys like Joe-Collector, but if you do a little soul-searching you will discover you are more upset about someone elses ability to do this rather than the fact that its already been done.

 

Timely

 

I could take this quote from so many angles My analogy to you would be - a large part of the multiples of guide that are paid for older CGC books now stem from the CONFIDENCE that the book exhibits certain characteristics - or more pointedly DOESNT. Assuredly one of these is Resto. Resto is what the CGG lynch mob have pinned up as why CGG is a Mickey Mouse company. Resto is the rallying cry as to why the Comic collectables market has come of age. Personally I do not have a problem with restoration as LONG AS ITS DISCLOSED AND I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE PRICES DIFFERENTIALS ESP. IF IT WAS DONE WELL.

 

BUT THE $$$ DIFFERENCES DO EXIST

 

The core problem is, that as a collector If I want to venture into the Graded comics market - which I sometimes do, I am subject to the multiple $$ of guide for a certain grade received. The problem I have is that People are manipulating the grade and therefore causing me to pay more money for an artificially created marketplace.

 

There ARE CONFIDENCE ASSUMPTIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THE CGC graded book and I feel that the clean and press retaining blue label circumvents these assumptions, yet attains dollar value based on them. And that ladies and gentlemen is a slippery slope that I do not feel like skiing.

 

In the past people were wary of the HG SA, GA resto. In the present I am starting to believe that they must be wary of the same thing however better disguised - which makes it more dangerous.

 

Ppl may argue that CGC doesnt consider clean and press of a type resto. A cicular arguement to be sure because the market confidence they created was based on detecting resto, so now they refuse or cant detect certain types, so they dont define it as resto and yet still wish to retain that market confidence based on previous assumptions..... Add to this to the fact that the direct result of these manipulated assumptions are that more $$$ are going out of collectors pockets for a pseudo-marketplace and I have a PROBLEM YES I DO.

[jbud73]

To expand on the idea of CONSUMER CONFIDENCE AND $$$ ASSOCIATED WITH CGC BLUE LABEL SLABS.

 

- Why did the Nomenclature IE. VF- come off the label???

- Why did certain notations come off the label?

- And Why is cleaning and pressing not noted on the blue label? A small step in the right direction without going PLOD.

- You could add why are MH 2 and Dallas Stephens ON the label???

 

These things are IMO done to bolster CONSUMER CONFIDENCE = more submissions and more $$$ in the pockets of the sellers of CGC slabs. You may cry conspiracy theory if you will but that glosses over the point..

 

CGC and the people that own and run it ARE NOT STUPID - they are in business to make $$$$ and I will never begrudge them that.

 

HOWEVER these tactics are designed to take $$$$ out of my pocket for what is essentially the same book that is UNDER DISCLOSED... If CGC is supposed to be a positive for the hobby because it discloses that which before was hidden or unknown, to me on these fronts they fail and whats more ALARMING THEY DO SO IN SOME INSTANCES WITH TACIT COMPLIANCE AND WILLINGLY. And the more I think about it the more it pi$$es me off.

 

[Red Hook]

 

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

That statement will get a lot of flack from guys like Joe-Collector, but if you do a little soul-searching you will discover you are more upset about someone elses ability to do this rather than the fact that its already been done.

 

Timely

 

Hi Timely,

 

There is not a hint of jealousy motivating me. Trust me, with the proper equipment I could press as well as anyone. I could screw with my scans and make Hammer's head spin. What I don't do very well is deception. I consider artificially pressing a book to resubmit for a higher grade and to rake in extra bucks is dishonest. If it is no big deal, why won't any dealers admit to it?

 

I think you are dead wrong on this Timely. Really. Before you suggest that us Anti-Pressers do some soul searching, how 'bout challenging the ones who are doing it to a little motivational examination.

 

And actually, I do have a method I'm already using......I am avoiding any book over a 9.4 with the newer label, especially from dealers that just seem to have endless supplies of them.

 

And finally, and you might have trouble believing this,....I just hate to see newer collectors who have no idea what is going on, getting set up by this little scam. And I do believe it is a form of scam.

[blowout]

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but this is not why I am against pressing.

I am against any procudure that is carried out without the buyers knowledge with the express intension of raising the sale price. Pure and simple.

[Red Hook]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Perfectly and concisely stated.

 

And what is even more warped is when they break great-looking books that have already been graded by CGC out of the slab, press 'em, and then resubmit. I mean, if you do it without the pressing, you at least are taking an honest gamble.

[PovertyRow]

I think what gets a lot of people put off to pressing is the fact that they cannot do it themselves. It takes money, knowledge and luck to come out ahead on this process. Jealousy of seeing someone else turn his 9.0 comic into an 9.4 is at the bottom of much of this controvery.

 

I had the money and the time to acquire the knoweldge and skill to be able to press darn well. While I do agree those undoable by a couple of fingers fold type jobs are not restoration, when a press is used it is.

 

What really rubs my rhubarb is that some folks just do not want to call a pig a pig - or restoration restoration. It is the misunderstanding of the various degress and processes of restoration that makes me .

 

It is the insistence that "this is restoration" but "this is not" that makes me .

 

I have no personal stake - rephrase - no financial stake - in the defintion of restoration. I have my own criteria and buy what fits into that criteria. But it would be nice to see the concept really understood at a deeper level than it is now.

[sfilosa]

Regarding resubmissions.

 

Is it possible that CGC standards are getting just a touch less strict (as oppose to every book being pressed)?

 

I have stated many times that I believe the standards would stay the same or get less strict over time.

 

I know I have four or five CGC books that look much nicer than the grade. Obviously, there can be hidden defects, but it's also possible they were a little too harsh on some books at first.

 

And of course, it only makes sense that resubmits happen on books that at least looked borderline (if not flat out undergraded). No one is going to take a book that they feel is accurately graded (or overgraded) and just resubmit for the fun of it.

[blowout]

And of course, it only makes sense that resubmits happen on books that at least looked borderline (if not flat out undergraded). No one is going to take a book that they feel is accurately graded (or overgraded) and just resubmit for the fun of it.

 

No, not without stacking the cards in their favor first.

[Red Hook]

Sure thing. I agree with you. I am not saying every resub has been pressed. Never hinted at that. But I do think there is a lot of the press for cash going on, and part of continuing this discussion is to bring it into the light before dealers get tired of just pressing and get even more agressive about pushing the limits.

 

You might be quite right about CGC standards getting looser. I'll let you know after I get the dozen books I sent to them back within the week.