IF PRESSING ISN'T RESTORATION.....

[THE_BEYONDER]

Or give us a solution that doesn't involve indignant complaining about something beyond everyone's control

 

If noone complained.....there would be no reason to seek improvements.

[jbud73]

It seems pretty straightforward to me that if CGC is able to determine whether a book has been pressed, and comments it on the label, that it shouldn't really matter whether that pressing was performed intentionally or not. WHO CARES! THE BOOK WAS PRESSED.

 

It could be that detecting pressing just seems like a lost cause. If it's well done, you can't detect it...so knocking down the Church books at the bottom of the stack seems unfair when people can do it all day out of greed and get away scott-free.

 

The actual answer to the question the thread is titled after is simple--pressing is restoration. How we react to the reality of the complexity in detecting it is the ongoing challenge.

 

Ok now we are getting somewhere, and I agree with your point and usage of the Church books as supporting evidence. So now the goal would seem to be to expand a grading companies ability to prove intent. So what are there options here, well to point out an example my friend Garth like to bring up. A start would be to log resubs that grade higher and have a double blind control that inspected the resulting grade when the difference was due to structural improvements from clean and press, this might be a minimum step.

 

Of course the counter to that would be no resubbing in holder which would eliminate this as a control, but my point is to get ideas flowing as to how to establish intent. At the very least then noting provenance books that were subject to this tactic. Provenance is tied to value, in most cases, therefore a resub that disavowed the provenance so as to avoid detection, would have to sacrifice the book provenance at minimum with no guarantee of grade increase. This might deter the practise, then again it might not.

 

Overall my point is to shift the discussion from rehasing what we know and throwing our arms up in the air, to discussing new ideas aimed at expanding the realm of detectable intent - which is a good idea I hope everyone agrees

[PovertyRow]

If it's well done, you can't detect it...so knocking down the Church books at the bottom of the stack seems unfair when people can do it all day out of greed and get away scott-free.

 

Why do the Chruch books keep being brought up when they are totally different from the pressed books we are usually talking about?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Assuming CGC could not detect a top notch pressing job, what are you all going to do about it?

 

And second, if you knew a book had been professionally pressed, (say a notation on the label), along with a guarantee from the dealer that if it reverted back to an unpressed state in the slab, you could get your dough back, would you feel better about buying it?

 

 

1. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

2. Yes

[fantastic_four]

If noone complained.....there would be no reason to seek improvements.

 

So this is just a prelude, a warm-up, to you going out and buying your own stereoscope to get started down the path towards the next great wave of restoration detection techniques?

 

I always thought necessity was the mother of invention, but apparently it's not that simple--it's necessity followed by months and years of moaning and groaning. Let curiosity be your guide...not frustration!

[Rip]

Maybe they would tag the bottom of the stack MH books as pressed..... and let the collectors own knowledge of those events decide what do to next and how much to pay.....

[THE_BEYONDER]

Overall my point is to shift the discussion from rehasing what we know and throwing our arms up in the air, to discussing new ideas aimed at expanding the realm of detectable intent

 

That pretty much sums up the intent of this thread....

[jbud73]

Overall my point is to shift the discussion from rehasing what we know and throwing our arms up in the air, to discussing new ideas aimed at expanding the realm of detectable intent

 

That pretty much sums up the intent of this thread....

 

Well then right back at ya

[THE_BEYONDER]

Maybe they would tag the bottom of the stack MH books as pressed..... and let the collectors own knowledge of those events decide what do to next and how much to pay.....

 

Now we're cooking...

 

It's time to

BRAINSTORM

[fantastic_four]

Overall my point is to shift the discussion from rehasing what we know and throwing our arms up in the air, to discussing new ideas aimed at expanding the realm of detectable intent - which is a good idea I hope everyone agrees

 

I agree, but as has been pointed out in previous threads, tracking resubs is too cost-prohibitive unless the grading company permanently marks the interior somehow. Only tracking pedigree resubmits doesn't even scratch the surface--it just encourages people not to submit pedigrees to CGC. That's just not something they're going to do as a business trying to stay afloat. It needs to be a solution that works for all books, or none.

 

Hate to be a pessimist, but look at the reality of proving intentional pressing by comparing it to intentional murder. Even given the time and expense put into forensic evaluation in murder cases, proving intent almost always can't just rely on the body of the victim, it has to rely on environmental evidence as well. And CGC has no access to any of that evidence.

[THE_BEYONDER]

If noone complained.....there would be no reason to seek improvements.

 

So this is just a prelude, a warm-up, to you going out and buying your own stereoscope to get started down the path towards the next great wave of restoration detection techniques?

 

I always thought necessity was the mother of invention, but apparently it's not that simple--it's necessity followed by months and years of moaning and groaning. Let curiosity be your guide...not frustration!

 

I'm not frustrated FF....just concerned.

[fantastic_four]

I'm not frustrated FF....just concerned.

 

So how's the shopping for a dry mount press, a book press, a tacking iron, a humidifier and humidity chamber, and a stereoscope going? LET'S GET THE EXPERIMENTING STARTED!!!

[THE_BEYONDER]

I'm not frustrated FF....just concerned.

 

So how's the shopping for a dry mount press, a book press, a tacking iron, a humidifier and humidity chamber, and a stereoscope going? LET'S GET THE EXPERIMENTING STARTED!!!

 

THE WHEELS ARE IN MOTION

 

 

 

I gotta split. Later guys.

[Rip]

Here's a fun pre-CGC ad I thought some of you guys might find interesting

[Red Hook]

Thanks, of much interest! I think at some point in the future, restoration, when fully understood, will at least for some categories of books, not carry quite the stigma that it does at the moment.

 

[PovertyRow]

Here's a fun pre-CGC ad I thought some of you guys might find interesting

 

Yes. They were good days back then. Full disclosure (at least by SOME) so you knew what you were getting into. Certain restorer names actually lending credibility to the restoration. Remembering those times really DOES help me understand some of the negative stigma attached to resoration now due to the seeming multitude of hacks out there that slice and sell and claim "unrestored".

[Timely]

Can we back off of the phrasing "CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration" unless someone is able to post a link to a thread where Borock says this? CGC not defining pressing as restoration is entirely different from them declining to note intentional restoration when they can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

At the Longbeach show last weekend Steve outrightly said "correctly" pressed books are not restored books. He is correct.

 

Intent has nothing to do with question of whether pressing is restoration or not. Why?... Because on a similar note I have seen (and own) some books where a name was written on the cover and then erased with an eraser. Is that restoration? No, of course not. Why? Because it is also an accepted part of our hobby that has been around far longer than CGC...and most of us! I'm sure CGC (myself included) downgrades for badly erased books where not only is the name erased but so is the color. This is not restoration, even though the intent is clear.

 

With pressing, nothing has been added to the book, just like with erasure marks. Only when things have been added in an attempt to restore a book can you rightfully call it a restored book.

 

Timely

[fantastic_four]

At the Longbeach show last weekend Steve outrightly said "correctly" pressed books are not restored books. He is correct.

 

Since you agree with him...what are "correctly" pressed books?

[Rip]

I think your finally on to something Timely

[jimm94]

There have been lots of great thoughts posted on this already, but here's my take:

 

....then why not disclose it?

 

Besides the likelihood that CGC, dealers and collectors are not able to accurately and consistently detect it?

 

Fear. Denial. Insecurity.

 

Denial because the hobby is split regarding whether or not it is restoration in the first place. Dealers fear that a pressed book will sell for less profit. CGC fears that it will undermine their established authority and invalidate their previous grading. (For the record, I personally would not think less of CGC's previous grading if they started to disclose pressing.) Owners of raw books fear that the standardization of disclosing professional pressing would devalue their collection because their books have not been examined for this new benchmark in comic book evaluation. Similarly, some owners of CGC books might feel insecure that their “highest graded copy” or other high grade book within in a particularly low census may have been pressed into achieving that distinction, and is therefore worth less.

 

Basically, it’s the fear and insecurity of having bought something that is not quite what you thought it was. The fear and insecurity of not having the best. The fear of losing money, or not making as much of it.

 

That’s why it is so important that collectors continue to educate themselves and learn to buy books based on their personal assessment of its' condition, desirability and worth.