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AFTER MUCH CONSIDERATION.....

Started by THE_BEYONDER,

120 posts in this topic

Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted
The JURY has come back with an ACQUITTAL for the "PRESSED" camp.

 

 

That's definitely going into my list of most entertaining quotes regarding Pressing! thumbsup2.gif

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Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted
And how can you truly learn about whether the resto is successful or not without trying to pass the book off as unrestored? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Your implied purpose for restoration in general in this statement reminds me of how badly the Dupcaks of the world have screwed things up for the Cicconis, Nelsons, and Hefts! frown.gif

 

FF, I think that CGC's PLOD has done much more damage to these folks than anything Hammer has done.

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Marvelous

Marvelous

Posted
Posted
Do you really think that would help?

 

I mean, the first explanation obviously didn't take... so what makes you think you have the faculties to fare any better a second time around?

 

I think it might help; if nothing else, I'll learn a shiny, new figure of speech I was previously unaware of to dazzle my friends, family, and co-workers. Just as a reminder, here's your original usage of the word:

 

 

Hey, FF, YOU'RE STILL OVERPAYING. Get it yet? It's not about "investments"... you've made that ABUNDANTLY clear the last 5,000 times you cried about your beautiful, altruistic reasons for collecting.

 

What's the "intentional literary device" you're using here, again? I haven't figured it out yet. Was it "contradiction," you said? You're contradicting what with what, again? How have my explanations for the reason I collect been "altruistic," or even the OPPOSITE of "altruistic"? The word just doesn't seem to apply at all the way you used it.

 

This matters so incredibly little, but it amuses me to see just how long you persist in being a petty, argumentative troll who just can't give up.

 

893applaud-thumb.gif

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sfilosa

sfilosa

Posted
Posted

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The JURY has come back with an ACQUITTAL for the "PRESSED" camp.

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

That's definitely going into my list of most entertaining quotes regarding Pressing!

 

 

 

Glad you appreciated that quote. I stay up all night thinking it up.

 

NOW FOR THE FACTS:

 

1) I understand your (and other collectors) desire to be as informed about a book as possible.

 

2) As we know, CGC standards (which are not published) were derived from years of collecting comics and input from major dealers and collectors.

 

3) Other than Marnin Rosenberg (who is highly critical of CGC most of the time), I have not heard one major dealer / collector who wants "PRESSED" on the label.

 

4) I doubt that CGC could detect all press jobs, plus clearly draw the line between professional, amateur and just natural pressing ALL THE TIME.

 

5) Just like Restoration, I believe a book is INNOCENT until proven GUILTY. Do I (or even you) want CGC to GUESS if a book has been PRESSED. Probably not.

 

6) Assume CGC did start putting PRESSED on the label when it was completely clear the book was unnaturally pressed. DoN'T you think we would still be having this discussion as people put up books and say that CGC missed this one or that one.

 

 

In other words, for CGC, it seems like a NO WIN situation. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted

You are a very very trusting soul. I am not. Who watches the watchers?

 

Are you telling me it is wrong to ask these questions? To ask CGC to consider changing thier policies? Are you telling me to in essence tell dealers, "You have carte blanche to try anything within the current system to artificially pump up the grade of a book"?

 

CGC can watch out for themselves.

Dealers do a great job of watching out for themselves.

Major collectors do a good job of watching out for themeselves.

 

I am watching out for myself, by asking these questions. I am watching out for the new collector who only sees a CGC blue label and figures that's all he has to know.

 

The real problem here, is that no one on the inside is talking about this. If I were a major dealer, or a restoration expert or even on the staff of CGC, I would be in here so fast to clarify the situation that your head would spin.

 

If I were a major dealer who did not break slabs, press and resub, I would be in on these boards personally so fast your nose would bleed. You are giving the dealers a free ride on this question. And I can't figure out why. Information is power. Disclosure is good. The more information CGC can put on the label the better.

 

Those are the important facts as I see them.

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drbanner

drbanner

Posted
Posted
Could start a whole new CGC classification of pedigree...."From the Gutenburg Press"...."From the FF Press"....From the Hammer Press"....

 

Jim

 

Good idea - a true entrepeneur could show up at shows exclaiming "Hot off the presses! Get your 9.4's and 9.6's right here folks, step right up!!". 27_laughing.gif

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Mr. Zipper

Mr. Zipper

Posted
Posted
As we know, CGC standards (which are not published) were derived from years of collecting comics and input from major dealers and collectors.

 

Major dealers and collectors (i.e., flippers) who make a living off of small fish like me. I believe they'll recommend standards which work to their benefit and not mine insane.gif

 

I doubt that CGC could detect all press jobs, plus clearly draw the line between professional, amateur and just natural pressing ALL THE TIME.

 

Just because you can't be 100% accurate isn't a valid reason not to try to detect and note something. Given this reasoning, CGC shouldn't note restoration of any kind because I'm sure they don't catch it ALL the time.

 

Assume CGC did start putting PRESSED on the label when it was completely clear the book was unnaturally pressed. DoN'T you think we would still be having this discussion as people put up books and say that CGC missed this one or that one.

 

Sure, but that's no different than what we do now for suspected trimming, etc.

 

In other words, for CGC, it seems like a NO WIN situation. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Oh, I don't know about that. As my Grandmother used to say, "I'm sure they are crying all the way to the bank."

 

laugh.gif

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted
hm. Now why would little FF want to leave off the very explanation he's begging for? It was RIGHT THERE... but you chose not to bring it up (literally).

 

Because your explanation made no sense.

 

Funny you should bring up Hammer...I've been wondering if you were one of his shills for years now! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted
FF, I think that CGC's PLOD has done much more damage to these folks than anything Hammer has done.

 

sign-offtopic.gif This is a topic for a whole separate thread, but I disagree with this idea due to my understanding of the history of how the market for restored comics has evolved. The PLOD put a spotlight on restoration to exacerbate the decline in a market that was sagging long before CGC came around. Everyone I've talked with says that restored prices started going down over the entire last decade or two, particularly in the mid-1990s. Prior to that, the popular opinion was that prettying-up books was a GOOD thing and a generally accepted practice.

 

My current hypothesis is that restored prices have decreased at a rate that is VERY roughly inversely proportional to the severe increase in prices on Gold and Silver comics over the last few decades. In other words, as prices went through the roof on the hard-to-find stuff, restored prices came down because people started deciding they didn't want to pay through-the-roof prices for altered, "unoriginal" books. This was particularly hastened by the growing number of dealers performing restoration without disclosure, a practice that grew throughout the 1980s and became rampant in the 1990s.

 

To say the PLOD has killed the market for restoring comics isn't entirely inaccurate, but it ignores the decline that began long before CGC came around. CGC is just giving us more information, and given a decade or so to let that information sink in, it will turn out long-term to be a good thing. Could they present it differently and improve the popular opinion on restored comics a little? Yes, I think they can. However, greed killed the market for people restoring their books, not the PLOD, and greed was inevitable once values on vintage comics rose to a level which allowed people to make their living as professional scam artists.

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

Posted
Posted
Just because you can't be 100% accurate isn't a valid reason not to try to detect and note something. Given this reasoning, CGC shouldn't note restoration of any kind because I'm sure they don't catch it ALL the time.

 

You're going to unrealistic extremes with this comparison by using terms like "100% accurate" or "ALL the time" since very few arts or sciences have this degree of certainty, but I think your comment above characterizes roughly what CGC already does. In other words, if they're not absolutely sure a comic has a particular type of restoration, they don't note it. Sometimes it's tough to tell for sure on something such as trimming, and I strongly suspect they lean towards the concept of assuming innocence of restoration until guilt can be proven with a high degree of certainty.

 

I highly doubt they strive for 100% certainty, but I figure it's well over 50%. Most types of pressing being done can't be proven with anywhere near the same degree of confidence as some of the other procedures.

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burntboy

burntboy

Posted
Posted

 

27_laughing.gif

 

Could start a whole new CGC classification of pedigree...."From the Gutenburg Press"...."From the FF Press"....From the Hammer Press".... insane.gif

 

Jim

 

sign-funnypost.gif i like this idea..............

 

and when i create my own Burntboy pedigree, i'll also state in writing that no book in the pedigree has ever been subjected to more than an encyclopedia volume or two................. devil.gif

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OldGuy

OldGuy

Posted
Posted
Nice avatar!! One of the all-time board classics... cloud9.gif

 

For those not "in the know", drag and drop his avatar (or any avatar for that matter) into the address bar of your browser and you'll get a much bigger size picture to drool over.

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Clark Khaos-migration

Clark Khaos-migration

Posted
Posted
hm. Now why would little FF want to leave off the very explanation he's begging for? It was RIGHT THERE... but you chose not to bring it up (literally).

 

Because your explanation made no sense.

 

Funny you should bring up Hammer...I've been wondering if you were one of his shills for years now! 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

I am. And actually, the last I heard, I was MajorKhaos' alter-ego... but that would mean that... 893whatthe.gif

 

We are the Unholy Trinity. devil.gifdevil.gifdevil.gif

 

(BTW, sorry about Marvelous jumping on your bandwagon. There's no extinguishing a flame like that.)

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garthgantu

garthgantu

Posted
Posted

Red:

 

CGC has said it before, and will no doubt say it again: "If we can't detect the pressing or cleaning, than it's 'good' pressing / cleaning, and you don't need to worry about it."

 

How could that be simpler? devil.gif

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Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted

I'm not really talking about that. I'm talking about a general list of their grading criteria.

 

 

Must.....control....self....

 

Hook must...not...think....about....pressing......

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Red Hook

Red Hook

Posted
Posted

Good god. I finally did it....posted an answer to one thread that referred to the discussion in another thread, but still made at least partial sense. Time for redhook to go lie down and take a nap!

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