WARNING: Tec 34 on eBay is a cracked RESTORED, being sold as Unrestored!

[mt1000]

And in a special note to Bat-Man...

 

I do mean what I say regarding some of the larger hobby issues I raised... but I just went back and re-read this thread, and realized that I pretty much derailed your thread in a way not unlike the end of The Greatest Show on Earth. (Mangled metal, wild animals running every which way, scampering clowns... not pretty).

 

Anyway... sorry my elephant krapped in your Big Top.

 

 

 

its ok we are all friends here. Im actually Batman's assistant and i will say on behalf of him he forgives you too (thumbs u

[Old Fashion PB and J]

I can't take it.. Just everything being posted is such horsekrap that I am gonna be ill.

 

Seriously.. Thank you for letting me know how and what I should collect. And at what point does something like a replaced staple become rellevant again?

 

But you're not just stating what you want to collect. You're demanding that people list everything you want listed, and you're going into public forums and calling them crooks if they don't! And you're avoiding my main point that this sort of overkill on a trashed book is creating a niche for "crooks" that wouldn't otherwise exist! I'm not even saying maybe he shouldn't have listed the replaced staple... but is it such an egregious thing that it's worth a thread devoted to "calling him out"?

 

If he just bought the book and re-listed it, he should have listed what was on the CGC label as "known data" (though I don't believe he's under any obligation to disclose that it had once been CGC-graded otherwise).

 

But...

 

Now I've crossed into the very thing I'm complaining about... making a big deal about a thread making a big deal about something that seems not to be that big of a deal!

 

As for the whole being ill thing... that's another topic for another thread... about how this community is so racked with angst over so many things they don't like about the hobby, which have mainly come about because of their own behaviors! You (generic "you") foster ridiculous trading conditions for books, then whelp when people step in to take advantage of those ridiculous conditions/demands.

 

Like i said... the current trends cannot stand.

 

The hobby is already under assault from bad publishing decisions, competition from mass media, and technology making the form passe... but now worst of all it's being torn apart from within by collectors creating a marketplace so irrational no newcomer would ever want to invest in it.

Im not really gonna get into it. But the "trashed book" is still alot of money. So being as it is not original, makes it less then one that is original. Making it a loss for the buyer.

 

I really don't care for the discussion of the "state of the hobby". But in reality it is not hard to disclose known information, being unwilling to do so makes me believe the person is hiding something (which appears dishonest).

 

 

Bottom line. He knew the work done, and ommitted information to try and make more profit. Call it what you like.

[tb]

[...] We all know that pressing is done for the very same reasons you mentioned - to make a quick buck.

 

This flavor of argumentation fits better in the Water Cooler or Comics General.

[Bat-Man]

And in a special note to Bat-Man...

 

I do mean what I say regarding some of the larger hobby issues I raised... but I just went back and re-read this thread, and realized that I pretty much derailed your thread in a way not unlike the end of The Greatest Show on Earth. (Mangled metal, wild animals running every which way, scampering clowns... not pretty).

 

Anyway... sorry my elephant krapped in your Big Top.

 

 

 

No harm, no foul. (thumbs u

 

And since the eBay listing in question was corrected/fix, and has now sold?! , the original importance of the thread is finished.

 

And all the debates going on at least make for an interesting read.

 

Frankly, so much I have not been able to read it all tonight, but will make good weekend reading.

 

And for the record pulpguide, I understand your points and that your reigning from honorable roots, its a bummer some things in the hobby have changed in a some crazy ways in the modern era, but they are what they are now, perhaps.

[Doohickamabob]

The flipped sale of this comic at a $240+ profit really underscores the extent to which a Purple Label is a Purple Label of Death.

[Bat-Man]

And in a special note to Bat-Man...

 

I do mean what I say regarding some of the larger hobby issues I raised... but I just went back and re-read this thread, and realized that I pretty much derailed your thread in a way not unlike the end of The Greatest Show on Earth. (Mangled metal, wild animals running every which way, scampering clowns... not pretty).

 

Anyway... sorry my elephant krapped in your Big Top.

 

 

 

its ok we are all friends here. Im actually Batman's assistant and i will say on behalf of him he forgives you too (thumbs u

 

(thumbs u

 

Wait, are you Robin!?!?

[Bat-Man]

The flipped sale of this comic at a $240+ profit really underscores the extent to which a Purple Label is a Purple Label of Death.

 

In this case, agreed.

 

Wonder what it might have done unrestored though.

[mt1000]

And in a special note to Bat-Man...

 

I do mean what I say regarding some of the larger hobby issues I raised... but I just went back and re-read this thread, and realized that I pretty much derailed your thread in a way not unlike the end of The Greatest Show on Earth. (Mangled metal, wild animals running every which way, scampering clowns... not pretty).

 

Anyway... sorry my elephant krapped in your Big Top.

 

 

 

its ok we are all friends here. Im actually Batman's assistant and i will say on behalf of him he forgives you too (thumbs u

 

(thumbs u

 

Wait, are you Robin!?!?

 

 

I try not and tell that to many people since you all hate me because i destroyed Detective comics after 37.

[Bat-Man]

And in a special note to Bat-Man...

 

I do mean what I say regarding some of the larger hobby issues I raised... but I just went back and re-read this thread, and realized that I pretty much derailed your thread in a way not unlike the end of The Greatest Show on Earth. (Mangled metal, wild animals running every which way, scampering clowns... not pretty).

 

Anyway... sorry my elephant krapped in your Big Top.

 

 

 

its ok we are all friends here. Im actually Batman's assistant and i will say on behalf of him he forgives you too (thumbs u

 

(thumbs u

 

Wait, are you Robin!?!?

 

 

I try not and tell that to many people since you all hate me because i destroyed Detective comics after 37.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluechip]

 

That is what it really comes down to. Some people are happy to have these books be less and they just kind of sit on the sidelines and quietly buy them. But some others seem feel to that the purple label was created specifically so they could force people to sell them books for the price they want to pay, and whenever a book they want goes for more they feel wronged. It's part of the reason why buyers think a book hasn't been disclosed, no matter how much detail is used to describe the book, unless the word "restored" is used, (because they know novice buyers have been made to believe that all "restored" books are bad, so they stay away from them, keeping prices lower). In some cases, people even believe full disclosure hasn't occured unless the other potential buyer has been the book would get a purple label and, additionally, that all books in purple labels are not good investments. Basically, in the most extreme cases, some people are not satisfied unless the book sells for as little as they believe it should be, or as little as they would pay, (even if they are only buying to flip it).

 

 

[rjpb]

The flipped sale of this comic at a $240+ profit really underscores the extent to which a Purple Label is a Purple Label of Death.

 

Absolutely. I can't see leaving a low grade slightly restored book in a slab when selling. I'd have to imagine that most buyers in the market for books in less than Good are all that turned off by slight resto as long as it's disclosed.

 

If the seller had mentioned the replaced staple and hadn't been so insistent that it was unrestored in the original listing, and just let the listed defects speak for themselves, few would have cared that it once had the PLOD.

[Theagenes]

The flipped sale of this comic at a $240+ profit really underscores the extent to which a Purple Label is a Purple Label of Death.

 

Absolutely. I can't see leaving a low grade slightly restored book in a slab when selling. I'd have to imagine that most buyers in the market for books in less than Good are all that turned off by slight resto as long as it's disclosed.

 

If the seller had mentioned the replaced staple and hadn't been so insistent that it was unrestored in the original listing, and just let the listed defects speak for themselves, few would have cared that it once had the PLOD.

 

Exactly. There's no reason not to simply be honest about a book like this. In fact if he had said something like "after cracking this out of its slab and examining it first hand it appears that the glue noted by CGC as restoration is actually a residual byproduct of the binding process" it probably would have been a positive selling point.

[Theagenes]

[Honestly im not going to disagree with that since obviously you do know more than I on that topic, and never did i say that i disgreed with that. Plain and simple the person selling didnt disclose all resto thats it thats all everyone was trying to get across.

 

And I don't have a problem with that.

 

A few people started taking it in other directions,

 

Of which I am also guilty.

 

No one not I or Alex sent him threating letters saying he was this or that. I could care less about resto i have no issue with restored books, in fact i actually applaud them its a way for me to be able to obtain a higher $ book i normally couldnt. I also had a hard time with this whole forum is bringing down the hobby because that my friend is an assumption to the fullest.

 

I don't think the hobby is being ruined because of this thread.

 

I used this thread as a springboard to discuss larger issues of which I saw this thread as a microcosm. But that's always tricky on a chat-board, and hard to pull-off. I guess... if I now scale back to just the opening posts of this thread... the whole tone seemed way out of proportion. It wasn't wrong to mention to other Boardies that the staple is replaced, if this is indeed a concern for people buying this grade of book. And it wasn't terrible to send a note to the seller suggesting he add this to his description.

 

But the seller was called out as a thief immediately... he was told he was a crook in the email(s) sent to him. Even after he made the amendment to the description, he was attacked as just giving in to pressure and still being a crook at heart. I have seen this pattern played out repeatedly here (and to be fair... mostly in Comics General, not so much in Golden-Age, which maybe is what caught my attention the most).

 

Now it appears there is a history between this seller and the Board here. That's all well and fine. But if he is a crook, then it's probably best to call him out as such on things that are really significant... not on something that wouldn't (or shouldn't) have any affect on value whatsoever. This Board can be a huge boon in protecting the collecting community. But it needs to pick its battles wisely.

 

(BTW-- has anybody thought to wonder why a bound volume would still have its staples anyway?-- I would have thought they'd have been removed prior to the binding process).

 

 

Tim, you've raised some valid points but you've also painted the many members of this community with some sweeping generalizations as though we are all some monolithic horde of resto-hating label chasers. In fact, many here, myself included, are probably very much in agreement with many of your points---particularly the unforeseen problems caused by the purple label and the insane price differential between certain increments. I would say that is even more so case here in the GA forum where you're practically preaching to the choir. You're certainly not the first to raise these issues. (I think you'll find us a little saner in here than the folks in Comics General).

 

As for this particular thread, the seller does have a long history of selling undisclosed restored books going back to the 80's, long before CGC or these boards. Several years ago he claimed to repent his previous practices and said he would only be selling slabbed books. Recently he seems to have adopted a new business model of cracking CGC books with particular flaws and then selling them raw while downplaying the flaws. For example a few weeks ago it was shown that he was cracking slabbed books with detached covers, disassembling them, putting small pieces of tape over the staple slits, then reassembling them with nothing more than the minor notation buried in the description of "small pieces of tape noted at the staples." Taken by itself, not really a big deal, but in context you start to ssee a pattern of trying operate in the gray area of what's acceptable and what isn't---pushing the envelope. Given his history I think it's appropriate that he receives more scrutiny than others without his baggage.

 

And, yes I thought it was weird that it still had staples as well, but this does seem to be an atypical binding job. :shrug:

[Bookery]

 

Excellent, rational post Theagenes!

 

I only take issue with one thing--

 

You're certainly not the first to raise these issues. (I think you'll find us a little saner in here than the folks in Comics General)

 

To paraphrase Marx (the one with the cigar)... how sane can a group be that would include me as a member?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or... what about that Mitch guy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(just kidding Mitch)

 

 

[buttock]

or... what about that Mitch guy?

 

[aggr1103]

[...] We all know that pressing is done for the very same reasons you mentioned - to make a quick buck.

 

This flavor of argumentation fits better in the Water Cooler or Comics General.

 

I wasn't trying to troll if that's what you were getting at. If there is some unwritten rule about the Gold comic subforum not allowing pressing talk I was unaware of it.

 

I was just trying to draw a parallel between what this dealer was doing by buying slabbed books, cracking them out and downplaying their flaws and what other dealers do by buying slabbed books, cracking them out, pressing them for a higher grade, and then reselling for a profit, without disclosure that the pressing happened.

[esquirecomics]

[...] We all know that pressing is done for the very same reasons you mentioned - to make a quick buck.

 

This flavor of argumentation fits better in the Water Cooler or Comics General.

 

I wasn't trying to troll if that's what you were getting at. If there is some unwritten rule about the Gold comic subforum not allowing pressing talk I was unaware of it.

 

Weren't you given a copy of our rule book?

[jgallo]

Can i ask one question then? Why are you still here if your so disgusted with this forum?

 

I am disgusted with one aspect of a trend in the hobby which is indeed fostered by some in this collecting community.

 

I just get that you have a Im better than this attitude. I very highly doubt everyone here is ruining this hobby maybe you have met a few people on here that are the way you say, but that doesnt mean you should single eveyone out.

 

Really?

 

What I can tell you is that I've been in this business for over 30 years. I have some expertise as well in other collecting fields. There is nothing like what's going on here in these other areas. CGC-grading should have been a saving factor for this hobby... and early on in many ways it was. But there appear to be new collectors that have entered the arena in the past 10 years or so that have used a professional-grading system as a means to bring unbelieveable stress into the hobby, create lots of high drama, and create massive price-differentials in areas where only small differentials should exist. In the REAL WORLD real investors like stability in how markets operate. But here collectors are creating a perfect storm of factors which will cause an implosion not unlike that seen in the housing market.

 

Now you can weigh what I say and come to disagreement with it. Let's hope for all of our sakes that I am wrong! But I have studied what's going on here for over a year before saying too much about it-- and you can ignore what I say as outlandish or insulting (maybe it is)... but be aware that I am not the only one saying it outside of this cocoon.

 

I meant to post this yesterday but I got side tracked....

 

Honesty I am not sure what other collecting fields you have knowledge of as I see the same type of grade demand in comics, coins, stamps and sports cards.

 

There is a huge jump from a Mint 9 to Gem Mint 10 in sports cards. I can take a brand new card worth maybe $5 grade it a 10 and it is worth $50, a 9 is worth $5. so the price difference between a 9.6 and 9.8 etc is there in EVERY SINGLE HOBBY!!

 

There also is labeling in every market as well. Cards have an authentic grade, coins have the no grade environmental damage label too. The sigma is there with these labels as well.

 

So your dead wrong about that!!

 

There are ways to manipulate pretty much any type of product to try and increase the grade and make more more. People try to press out creases on cards (pressing is NOT accepted in sports cards) crack and resubmit coins until they get a grade bump, it happens everywhere and in every hobby.

 

As for being called out on these boards I have posted plenty of things and never once have I been called names or had my reputation even called into question.

 

For whatever reason you have a very jaded and negative opinion of this board which is just way off IMO. Any chat board is going to have some insufficiently_thoughtful_persons that is the just the nature of the forum.

 

If your not happy with the way things go then leave :-) As others have said we aren't some lynch mob and we generally have very nice thougthful threads here in gold :-D

 

James G

[Theagenes]

Excellent, rational post Theagenes!

 

I only take issue with one thing--

 

You're certainly not the first to raise these issues. (I think you'll find us a little saner in here than the folks in Comics General)

 

To paraphrase Marx (the one with the cigar)... how sane can a group be that would include me as a member?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or... what about that Mitch guy?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(just kidding Mitch)

 

 

Mitch is the exception that proves the rule. (j/k too, Mitch. )

[nearmint]

[...] We all know that pressing is done for the very same reasons you mentioned - to make a quick buck.

 

This flavor of argumentation fits better in the Water Cooler or Comics General.

 

I wasn't trying to troll if that's what you were getting at. If there is some unwritten rule about the Gold comic subforum not allowing pressing talk I was unaware of it.

 

I was just trying to draw a parallel between what this dealer was doing by buying slabbed books, cracking them out and downplaying their flaws and what other dealers do by buying slabbed books, cracking them out, pressing them for a higher grade, and then reselling for a profit, without disclosure that the pressing happened.

 

There have been numerous pressing threads in Comics General over the years. They usually devolve into personal attacks and circular arguments. We try to be more civil in the Gold forum.