Serious, yet Simple, Forum Sales Etiquette Question...

[Ryan.]

Can someone PM me a list of people who overpay? I'd like to sell them some junk. For a lot of money, of course.

 

I always do. Then I inevitably need another, better, book (or rent money) and I sell the first one for way less than what I paid. I'm the hobby's greatest collector!

 

This.

[Ryan.]

Now that I know all the facts my feelings on the matter are:

 

[Speedy-D]

So, BurntBoy sold the comic for $8K to FoolKiller (and super secret undercover partner), FoolKiller immediately sold it for ~$10K to dem1138, and dem1138 tried (unsuccessfully) to sell it for $20K. Is that right?

 

BurntBoy saw the $20K price tag and had the understandable thoughts, a) 'I sold it for way too little' and b) 'this guy's trying to rip off the boards.'

 

So...

 

1. This conversation people are having, right now, is the reason we've agreed not to debate prices in sales threads. If this were a sales thread it would be dead for all the chatter. Maybe you think it should be dead, but nonetheless this is the reason. Having the conversation in another thread, as is happening right now, is totally reasonable according to the etiquette, right? Seems a bit silly to me, but I guess that's where we're at.

 

2. As defenders of the accepted etiquette often point out, if the price is too high, it won't sell. Here, the price was too high and it didn't sell. Sounds like a win right?

 

3. This looks like a very good example of a comic being worth what someone will pay for it. There's very little previous sales data. A few players throw around some big numbers. It sells once or twice, the price keeps going up, and eventually someone overreaches.

[dem1138]

Since I'm involved in this as well let me explain my side. Brian explained his side and I think that side is really between Brian and Harry. Anyway, Brian called me up and offered me this book which I was very clear with him that I was going to resell. He offered it to me at a price that I felt was undervalued. We both knew that restored books were stigmatized, but pre-Robin Tecs are the hottest books on the market and I knew that I could find a buyer for the book. I looked at GPA and Heritage and saw that an 8.0 was probably currently in the 70K-80K range, so I figured a 7.5 would be in the 60K-65K range. Since I have little experience with selling restored books but remembered that I had read valuation threads, I literally googled "value of restored comic books" and on the first page was a link to a CGC Board thread on this topic. Here is the post from longstanding, respected, and knowledgeable member ciorac:

 

"The ciorac accepted calculations are as follows:

 

Extensive = 20-25% of apparent grade guide value

Moderate = 30-35% of apparent grade guide value

Slight = 40-45% of apparent grade guide value

 

Certain books fall outside of this for sure, but this is the range I calculate values with when buying or selling"

 

Since the guide is obsolete, I used GPA as my guide which was reinforced by valuations I've seen used elsewhere on restored books (like Action #1). Given that the book has fantastic eye appeal, is a pre-Robin Tec, and has Slight P, I estimated that the value of this book was north of 20K. This was reinforced by my daily reading of the Gold forum where it is becoming more and more clear that the stigma of restored books is decreasing and restored copies of key issues are becoming more valuable (with restored Action #1s leading the way).

I would add that I didn't think that the book would sell on the Boards or that it would sell for north of 20K but that I like to offer books on here first. I've dealt with countless buyers here and anyone who has dealt with me knows that 99% of the time, I'm willing to negotiate. I'm also very good with communicating and respond to all PMs in a timely manner. So I put the book on here and then closed the thread within two days when it didn't sell because it was always my thinking that I would wind up selling it elsewhere anyway. No one sent me a PM telling me my price was out of whack or asking me to explain the price. I contacted other noted Gold forum posters as well and no one said a thing about my asking. I also know Harry. I've seen him at shows for years and always stop to chat. If Harry would have contacted me, I would have been happy to explain myself to him as well.

I've learned over the years through selling and have mentioned as much in other threads, that valuations here are educated but they are not the determiners of value - the market is. I know several dealers and collector/dealers who rarely even post books for sale here anymore because they've blown away GPA on private sales elsewhere and so they don't even bother here. I could see the uproar on my price if GPA for a similar copy from December 2011 was 10K and I was asking 20K but there is no recent data for a Slight (P) higher grade Tec 33 so I made a guestimate knowing that I would be getting lower offers and I would negotiate from there. The asking price was too high for the boards and no one made any comments via PM and it didn't sell and I closed the thread.

[drbanner]

Harry, I can see how you'd be a bit PO'd about this, but it happens all the time...including the time I sold a book here on the boards and the buyer immediately tried to flip it here on the boards, while I still had the book in my posession!! I can laugh about it now because it was gman and his reputation precedes him, but I thought it was pretty uncool at the time.

 

The fact is, a huge chunk of the market these days is dealers/flippers/investors buying books to resell, sometimes immediately (as in this case), sometimes to hold and sell. We've all seen books bought at "top dollar" in a Clink or Heritage auction, only to be immediately put on ebay with a 25%+ increase in price by comicmylars or another flipper. The high end comic "hobby" is mostly a business now, just ask Mitch Mehdy.

[TupennyConan]

Is it considered acceptable behavior to post a pricing opinion comment in a Forum Only Sales thread once it's been closed by the OP??

 

No.

 

So, BurntBoy sold the comic for $8K to FoolKiller (and super secret undercover partner), FoolKiller immediately sold it for ~$10K to dem1138, and dem1138 tried (unsuccessfully) to sell it for $20K. Is that right?

 

BurntBoy saw the $20K price tag and had the understandable thoughts, a) 'I sold it for way too little' and b) 'this guy's trying to rip off the boards.'

 

I've read the the comments from foolkiller, Burntboy, & dem1138 (just posted a moment ago). Speedy-D's summary is close enough to accurate for my purpose in posting today.

 

My opinion is that Burntboy's OP wasn't intended to solicit yes or no opinions or to analyze the scenario the OP describes.

 

It appears instead that the intent behind the OP was to generate a discussion of the facts summarized accurately enough by Speedy-D.

 

It's my humble opinion that those facts should never have been offered for CG's consideration. I believe they should have remained private between the principles.

 

Now that they are public facts & the OP has solicited the opinion of the entire internet through the CG venue, I believe I'm justified in voicing my opinion on the transaction.

 

The transaction is a commonplace commercial transaction that isn't made in any way unique or unusual in that it involved Boardies or eventually involved the Boards For Sale Forums.

 

The subject of interest to me in this thread is the tendency of good & reasonable folks to make public the details of their commonplace commercial transactions the moment they take a turn they perceive as being unfavorable to them. It's the downside of public forums & the ease with which we may post as we please on them.

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Also, I don't overlook Bedrock's involvement in this matter from his hot & muggy, coastal Texas comic book redoubt.

 

If there's trouble afoot in comics, his infamous name is sure to show up somewhere in the mix.

 

The man's just another trouble-making greggy in the hobby.

[brendanb438]

So was the book misrepresented in some manner or did the seller lie about outright past sales to make the books sound like it is worth way more than what it really is?

 

 

Or did the seller just ask for a lot of money for the book which is more than it normally goes for?

 

If it is the 2nd one then this is were you should mind your own business because a seller can ask whatever they want for there book.

 

If it is the 1st you should speak up right away because the seller is outright lying than to the boards to try and inflate the price on the book.

 

Can you let us know which is it?

 

Well Brendan, perhaps you'll have to wait until tomorrow to pass judgement on me.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why I bother...

 

You took what I said as passing judgement on you? Drama queen much sir?

 

I asked which was it A or B and since I have no idea what is going on I can't say if you did a good thing looking out for the community or if you are just someone who needs to mind their own damn business.

 

 

 

 

[TupennyConan]

Finally, we've all now learned that Gator can't return a phone call in a timely fashion.

 

Just like Jamie Graham.

[namisgr]

So was the book misrepresented in some manner or did the seller lie about outright past sales to make the books sound like it is worth way more than what it really is?

 

 

Or did the seller just ask for a lot of money for the book which is more than it normally goes for?

 

If it is the 2nd one then this is were you should mind your own business because a seller can ask whatever they want for there book.

 

If it is the 1st you should speak up right away because the seller is outright lying than to the boards to try and inflate the price on the book.

 

Can you let us know which is it?

 

Well Brendan, perhaps you'll have to wait until tomorrow to pass judgement on me.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why I bother...

 

You took what I said as passing judgement on you? Drama queen much sir?

 

I asked which was it A or B

 

It's neither.

 

The book was not misrepresented, nor were prior sales.

 

The current seller did not ask for considerably more than the book normally goes for, as it is a rare comic without a discernable recent track record on which to base current fair price.

[brendanb438]

So was the book misrepresented in some manner or did the seller lie about outright past sales to make the books sound like it is worth way more than what it really is?

 

 

Or did the seller just ask for a lot of money for the book which is more than it normally goes for?

 

If it is the 2nd one then this is were you should mind your own business because a seller can ask whatever they want for there book.

 

If it is the 1st you should speak up right away because the seller is outright lying than to the boards to try and inflate the price on the book.

 

Can you let us know which is it?

 

Well Brendan, perhaps you'll have to wait until tomorrow to pass judgement on me.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why I bother...

 

You took what I said as passing judgement on you? Drama queen much sir?

 

I asked which was it A or B

 

It's neither.

 

The book was not misrepresented, nor were prior sales.

 

The current seller did not ask for considerably more than the book normally goes for, as it is a rare comic without a discernable recent track record on which to base current fair price.

 

 

So why did the OP even start such a thread? Does he hate capitalism and people having the right to make a profit?

 

To add now that we know the whole story how can you possibly be hurt over selling something to someone at what you thought was an acceptable price at the point of sale?

 

Sure you left money on the table clearly, maybe a bunch, but that is no one else's fault but yourself. It happens but don't be mad at someone who later on buys the book in question hoping to turn a profit and it sure in the hell isn't acceptable to go and try and thread on their for sale thread.

[Ryan.]

Does this equivalency table cover all restoration, including amateur, or is it just professional?

 

"Extensive = 20-25% of apparent grade guide value

Moderate = 30-35% of apparent grade guide value

Slight = 40-45% of apparent grade guide value"

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

So was the book misrepresented in some manner or did the seller lie about outright past sales to make the books sound like it is worth way more than what it really is?

 

 

Or did the seller just ask for a lot of money for the book which is more than it normally goes for?

 

If it is the 2nd one then this is were you should mind your own business because a seller can ask whatever they want for there book.

 

If it is the 1st you should speak up right away because the seller is outright lying than to the boards to try and inflate the price on the book.

 

Can you let us know which is it?

 

Well Brendan, perhaps you'll have to wait until tomorrow to pass judgement on me.

 

Quite frankly, I'm not sure why I bother...

 

You took what I said as passing judgement on you? Drama queen much sir?

 

I asked which was it A or B

 

It's neither.

 

The book was not misrepresented, nor were prior sales.

 

The current seller did not ask for considerably more than the book normally goes for, as it is a rare comic without a discernable recent track record on which to base current fair price.

 

 

So why did the OP even start such a thread? Does he hate capitalism and people having the right to make a profit?

 

To add now that we know the whole story how can you possibly be butthurt over selling something to someone at what you thought was an acceptable price at the point of sale?

 

Sure you left money on the table clearly, maybe a bunch, but that is no one else's fault but yourself. It happens but don't be mad at someone who later on buys the book in question hoping to turn a profit and it sure in the hell isn't acceptable to go and try and thread on their for sale thread.

 

What's funny in all this is that if this book traded hands several times at a convention between dealers (as often happens on big ticket books) before it ended up in its final home, making several people/dealers money along the way, no one would say a thing. However, in a public venue like this, its fair game to open it to scrutiny.

 

 

 

[drbanner]

Does this equivalency table cover all restoration, including amateur, or is it just professional?

 

"Extensive = 20-25% of apparent grade guide value

Moderate = 30-35% of apparent grade guide value

Slight = 40-45% of apparent grade guide value"

 

I would like to see actual sales data supporting these estimates, but I would think the % would be based on the quality of the work, whether it was done by an "amateur" or a "professional". I seem to remember those distinctions don't really mean what you think they mean anyway.

[Ryan.]

Does this equivalency table cover all restoration, including amateur, or is it just professional?

 

"Extensive = 20-25% of apparent grade guide value

Moderate = 30-35% of apparent grade guide value

Slight = 40-45% of apparent grade guide value"

 

I would like to see actual sales data supporting these estimates, but I would think the % would be based on the quality of the work, whether it was done by an "amateur" or a "professional". I seem to remember those distinctions don't really mean what you think they mean anyway.

 

I know the boards here loathe that purple label but if you have a nicely presenting key book in which some amateur dabbed a touch of glue on the spine, it seems odd that such a thing would ding the value all the way down to 40%.

[etanick]

Does this equivalency table cover all restoration, including amateur, or is it just professional?

 

"Extensive = 20-25% of apparent grade guide value

Moderate = 30-35% of apparent grade guide value

Slight = 40-45% of apparent grade guide value"

 

I would like to see actual sales data supporting these estimates, but I would think the % would be based on the quality of the work, whether it was done by an "amateur" or a "professional". I seem to remember those distinctions don't really mean what you think they mean anyway.

 

there are so many variables that will throw a monkey wrench in those formula

 

[MightyBeanComics]

I understand the emotions, but this should not be made public.

[bababooey]

The subject of interest to me in this thread is the tendency of good & reasonable folks to make public the details of their commonplace commercial transactions the moment they take a turn they perceive as being unfavorable to them.

These confessionals are merely a ruse to lure SilverSurfer into divulging the massive profit margin from your 'pre-ship flip denied drop ship' of the infamous BetaRayBill poster.

 

Otherwise -

+1 on your thoughts, if I were the current owner I wouldn't be happy with the disclosures made in this thread about cost, they damage my ability to resell this particular book. In fact, I think it would be grounds for reversing the second deal.

 

[Foolkiller]

The subject of interest to me in this thread is the tendency of good & reasonable folks to make public the details of their commonplace commercial transactions the moment they take a turn they perceive as being unfavorable to them.

These confessionals are merely a ruse to lure SilverSurfer into divulging the massive profit margin from your 'pre-ship flip denied drop ship' of the infamous BetaRayBill poster.

 

Otherwise -

+1 on your thoughts, if I were the current owner I wouldn't be happy with the disclosures made in this thread about cost, they damage my ability to resell this particular book. In fact, I think it would be grounds for reversing the second deal.

 

Not too worried about any reversals.

[burntboy]

You do agree Harry that I was open in disclosing that the book was being purchased for resale? David was very blunt with me that he was buying the book for resale as well. He's been nothing but honest. And yes I'm biased because he and I have done past deals together but I have bought, sold and co-owned books with him and he's always been honest about his intentions with me.

 

Brian; I didn't know that your partner in the purchase was a dealer (until you handed me the check), but honestly, I don't see how that would have changed anything from my perspective.

 

I don't feel aggrieved over the two of you flipping it for a quick 25% profit. Happens all the time and so it goes...

 

My real concern is that a FMV $10,000 book gets flipped twice in two days and jumps from an $8,000 sale to a $10,000 sale to an asking price of $22,000 here in the For Sale Forum.

 

Quite frankly, I surprised at the outpouring of sympathy for a seller who flipped a cherished book (first origin of Batman) at 220% of what he paid the very day before and also 220% over a reasonable estimate of the books FMV, onto a potential unsuspecting Board Member who may still be so NAIVE as to believe that this is probably reasonable because we're a community here...

 

I TRULY UNDERSTAND that once it's yours you can do whatever the #$%@ you want with it, but that doesn't make it right...

 

Now to proceed through last nights late missives and see how further I've been fried...