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Lee versus Kirby and Ditko

Started by nmtg9,

58 posts in this topic

MedicAR

MedicAR

Posted
Posted
I find it odd that people who like comics often indicate that they think art and commerce are as different as art and writing. As if writing itself requires no creative talents.

 

Kirby was a genius, with a very particular style. So is Ditko. So is Romita. And so was Buscema. Colan, Ayers, Steranko, Trimpe, Mooney and others were also extremely good at what they did.

 

And Stan was not just a writer. He was a writer and editor who had worked on countless comic scripts, mastering all kinds of formats, for 20 years. To this day he can decontruct virtually any story or scene from any medium, because he's lived and breathed storytelling all his life. He was not just a "lightning rod" or a "huckster" or somebody who was "able to bring out the best in artists," and very often when people write that it's plain as day they're trying to imply that Marvel's magic wasn't as much about the writing as it was about the art. And that just ain't so.

 

 

 

 

 

Almost anybody can draw.

 

And almost anybody can write a sentence.

 

And almost anybody can come up with an idea for a superhero.

 

But not everybody can do any of the above in ways that make other people want to spend time and money looking at or reading what they've done.

 

 

 

I have no idea where you're coming from.

 

No one here has minimized Stan's contributions at all. In fact, I think the majority of comments have emphasized that it was an equal contribution and that none of it would have amounted to much without either party.

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bluechip

bluechip

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Posted
I find it odd that people who like comics often indicate that they think art and commerce are as different as art and writing. As if writing itself requires no creative talents.

 

Kirby was a genius, with a very particular style. So is Ditko. So is Romita. And so was Buscema. Colan, Ayers, Steranko, Trimpe, Mooney and others were also extremely good at what they did.

 

And Stan was not just a writer. He was a writer and editor who had worked on countless comic scripts, mastering all kinds of formats, for 20 years. To this day he can decontruct virtually any story or scene from any medium, because he's lived and breathed storytelling all his life. He was not just a "lightning rod" or a "huckster" or somebody who was "able to bring out the best in artists," and very often when people write that it's plain as day they're trying to imply that Marvel's magic wasn't as much about the writing as it was about the art. And that just ain't so.

 

 

 

 

 

Almost anybody can draw.

 

And almost anybody can write a sentence.

 

And almost anybody can come up with an idea for a superhero.

 

But not everybody can do any of the above in ways that make other people want to spend time and money looking at or reading what they've done.

 

 

 

I have no idea where you're coming from.

 

No one here has minimized Stan's contributions at all. In fact, I think the majority of comments have emphasized that it was an equal contribution and that none of it would have amounted to much without either party.

 

Forgive me I can't recall exactly who said what. I just noticed in some of these posts that several times somebody or several people took pains to say that Kirby and Ditko were great artists and that Lee was not a great writer. The use of meticulously different adjectives is a common method to minimize contributions. And when a person goes go out of their way to spell out that one person is great, and that the other is not, then it seems pretty clear that there's an attempt to draw a disinction between the one repeatedly called great and the one emphatically emphasized as "not great."

 

I am sorry but much as I like Kirby and Ditko I don't think either of them is/was any more great as an artist than Lee is/was great as a writer. I think that in the 60s Kirby and Ditko were truly great comic book artists and that Lee was a great comic writer.

 

That doesn't mean that any of them qualify as true greats to stand alongside the very best of all artists and writers. But, since they all stand at the very top of the field in comics, they are all true greats of that medium

 

 

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shadowman-migration

shadowman-migration

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I agree. Without question, it was clearly a collaborative effort. The Marvel Universe was built by Lee, Kirby and others. I am a fan of both Lee and Kirby, but I think from a financial and public acclaim standpoint, Stan Lee came out smelling like a rose. I think it is unfortunate that Kirby's creative genius was not more substantially rewarded from a financial standpoint.

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MedicAR

MedicAR

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I am sorry but much as I like Kirby and Ditko I don't think either of them is/was any more great as an artist than Lee is/was great as a writer.

 

I think that is a very fair assessment and what I have been trying to say all along.

 

I think that it is funny that we wouldn't be having this conversation if not for those men. I mean that on two levels, if they hadn't their separate ways, we wouldn't be concerned about who created what or how. But then, comics likely would not have survived if they hadn't gotten together, certainly they wouldn't be what they are today.

 

Kirby and Ditko could not have done it without Lee and Lee couldn't have done it without Kirby and Ditko.

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Aman619

Aman619

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about Stan Lee as a writer, its important to remember that even those of us attracted mainly to the art in comics actually READ the stories. And Stan's dialogue was the best of his time. We enjoyed his phrasing and the way he molded the personalities of the characters, who, without any words, are just lines on paper.

 

THAT was writing.

 

isnt it?

 

we remember and talk about the great plotlines from 40 years ago. But we savored each page of dialogue.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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Posted
about Stan Lee as a writer, its important to remember that even those of us attracted mainly to the art in comics actually READ the stories. And Stan's dialogue was the best of his time.

We enjoyed his phrasing and the way he molded the personalities of the characters, who, without any words, are just lines on paper.

 

THAT was writing.

 

isnt it?

 

we remember and talk about the great plotlines from 40 years ago. But we savored each page of dialogue.

 

His phrasing could be almost poetic, and the way he molded the personalities of the characters was great. It's two of the things that helped make those books as iconic as they are.

But the 'dialogue' was written for a comic of the 60's.

Read as a story or a screen-play, any writer or literary critic would scoff at it.

Sure, it was Stan's 'style' and it was an extremely effective one for the time, but the real collaboration is in the story, which is where there is a certain amount of speculation that creeps in.

Let me preface what I'm about to say with: The Silver Age wouldn't have been what it was without Stan teaming up with Jack/Steve/Jazzy... plain and simple it wouldn't have been anywhere near as great. The those specific parts created a greater sum total than any other pairing.

The same as the Beatles wouldn't have been the same without any one member, even George or Ringo. The chemistry is what made it great.

 

Stan was able to increase the creativity.. to focus and refine it in a way that was special. Much is made about the Challengers of the Unknown being a precursor for the Fantastic Four, but Jack had long ago put together teams of differing personalities and backgrounds with the Newsboy Legion, the Boy Commandos, even the Young Allies.

So the question becomes, how much did Stan actually WRITE, and how much did he mold the talent that was there... focus it and spice it up with interesting dialogue (which is a truly great talent) and present it as something HE had written?

 

Even other artists Stan worked with, the stories always seemed influenced by the type of work that artist had done previous to the Silver Age: Romita's Romance Comic Background, Don Heck's Sci-fi work, etc....

Coincidence? Playing off their strength's? A combination?

 

We'll never completely know.

All we can say for sure is that it created some of the greatest comics and characters ever in the history of this business and they are all equally as important a part of it.

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MedicAR

MedicAR

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Posted
His phrasing could be almost poetic, and the way he molded the personalities of the characters was great. It's two of the things that helped make those books as iconic as they are.

But the 'dialogue' was written for a comic of the 60's.

Read as a story or a screen-play, any writer or literary critic would scoff at it.

Sure, it was Stan's 'style' and it was an extremely effective one for the time, but the real collaboration is in the story, which is where there is a certain amount of speculation that creeps in.

Let me preface what I'm about to say with: The Silver Age wouldn't have been what it was without Stan teaming up with Jack/Steve/Jazzy... plain and simple it wouldn't have been anywhere near as great. The those specific parts created a greater sum total than any other pairing.

The same as the Beatles wouldn't have been the same without any one member, even George or Ringo. The chemistry is what made it great.

 

Stan was able to increase the creativity.. to focus and refine it in a way that was special. Much is made about the Challengers of the Unknown being a precursor for the Fantastic Four, but Jack had long ago put together teams of differing personalities and backgrounds with the Newsboy Legion, the Boy Commandos, even the Young Allies.

So the question becomes, how much did Stan actually WRITE, and how much did he mold the talent that was there... focus it and spice it up with interesting dialogue (which is a truly great talent) and present it as something HE had written?

 

Even other artists Stan worked with, the stories always seemed influenced by the type of work that artist had done previous to the Silver Age: Romita's Romance Comic Background, Don Heck's Sci-fi work, etc....

Coincidence? Playing off their strength's? A combination?

 

We'll never completely know.

All we can say for sure is that it created some of the greatest comics and characters ever in the history of this business and they are all equally as important a part of it.

 

Dang, those are some great questions and statements.

 

The one that really jumped out at me was, "Even other artists Stan worked with, the stories always seemed influenced by the type of work that artist had done previous to the Silver Age: Romita's Romance Comic Background, Don Heck's Sci-fi work, etc...." This is something I had never considered and it might be the true root of Marvel's success.

 

Just think, Kirby did teams but when he got with Stan, he did great teams. FF, Sgt. Fury, and Avengers. Ditko did quirky characters and odd horror, Spidey started out really quirky. I don't have a lot of knowledge of Don Heck prior to the Marvel explosion, but if he did sci-fi, Iron Man would be the reasonable expansion of sci-fi into the Marvel Universe. And the turn of Spidey from a quirky book into a more romantic book fits.

 

You may have really hit upon the root of what made Marvel stand out.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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Ya know it gets even MORE convoluted when you start talking about Spidey's origin, because Jack's somewhat involved in that as well. I just picked up 'The Ditko Reader Vol. 1' today (by Greg Theakston) and there's some great insight as to where Jack's input came from. Recommended reading!

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TheWatcher

TheWatcher

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The story is recapped here

 

Creation and development

 

 

In 1962, with the success of the Fantastic Four, Marvel Comics editor and head writer Stan Lee was casting about for a new superhero idea. He said the idea for Spider-Man arose from a surge in teenage demand for comic books, and the desire to create a character with whom teens could identify. In his autobiography, Lee cites the non-superhuman pulp magazine crime fighter the Spider as a great influence, and in a multitude of print and video interviews, Lee stated he was further inspired by seeing a spider climb up a wall—adding in his autobiography that he has told that story so often he has become unsure of whether or not this is true. Looking back on the creation of Spider-Man, 1990s Marvel editor-in-chief Tom DeFalco stated he did not believe that Spider-Man would have been given a chance in today's comics world, where new characters are vetted with test audiences and marketers. At that time, however, Lee had to get only the consent of Marvel publisher Martin Goodman for the character's approval. In a 1986 interview, Lee described in detail his arguments to overcome Goodman's objections.Detroit Free Press interview with Stan Lee, quoted in The Steve Ditko Reader by Greg Theakston (Pure Imagination, Brooklyn, NY; ISBN 1-56685-011-8), p. 12 (unnumbered). "He gave me 1,000 reasons why Spider-Man would never work. Nobody likes spiders; it sounds too much like Superman; and how could a teenager be a superhero? Then I told him I wanted the character to be a very human guy, someone who makes mistakes, who worries, who gets acne, has trouble with his girlfriend, things like that. [Goodman replied,] 'He's a hero! He's not an average man!' I said, 'No, we make him an average man who happens to have super powers, that's what will make him good.' He told me I was crazy". Goodman eventually agreed to let Lee try out Spider-Man in the upcoming final issue of the canceled science-fiction and supernatural anthology series Amazing Adult Fantasy, which was renamed Amazing Fantasy for that single issue, #15 (Aug. 1962).

Comics historian Greg Theakston says that Lee, after receiving Goodman's approval for the name Spider-Man and the "ordinary teen" concept, approached artist Jack Kirby. Kirby told Lee about an unpublished character on which he collaborated with Joe Simon in the 1950s, in which an orphaned boy living with an old couple finds a magic ring that granted him superhuman powers. Lee and Kirby "immediately sat down for a story conference" and Lee afterward directed Kirby to flesh out the character and draw some pages. Steve Ditko would be the inker. "'Stan said a new Marvel hero would be introduced in #15 [of what became titled Amazing Fantasy]. He would be called Spider-Man. Jack would do the penciling and I was to ink the character.' At this point still, 'Stan said Spider-Man would be a teenager with a magic ring which could transform him into an adult hero—Spider-Man. I said it sounded like the Fly, which Joe Simon had done for Archie Comics. Stan called Jack about it but I don't know what was discussed. I never talked to Jack about Spider-Man... Later, at some point, I was given the job of drawing Spider-Man'". When Kirby showed Lee the first six pages, Lee recalled, "I hated the way he was doing it! Not that he did it badly—it just wasn't the character I wanted; it was too heroic". Lee turned to Ditko, who developed a visual style Lee found satisfactory. Ditko recalled:

Although the interior artwork was by Ditko alone, Lee rejected Ditko's cover art and commissioned Kirby to pencil a cover that Ditko inked. As Lee explained in 2010, "I think I had Jack sketch out a cover for it because I always had a lot of confidence in Jack's covers."

 

In an early recollection of the character's creation, Ditko described his and Lee's contributions in a mail interview with Gary Martin published in Comic Fan #2 (Summer 1965): "Stan Lee thought the name up. I did costume, web gimmick on wrist & spider signal." At the time, Ditko shared a Manhattan studio with noted fetish artist Eric Stanton, an art-school classmate who, in a 1988 interview with Theakston, recalled that although his contribution to Spider-Man was "almost nil", he and Ditko had "worked on storyboards together and I added a few ideas. But the whole thing was created by Steve on his own... I think I added the business about the webs coming out of his hands".

 

Kirby disputed Lee's version of the story, and claimed Lee had minimal involvement in the character's creation. According to Kirby, the idea for Spider-Man had originated with Kirby and Joe Simon, who in the 1950s had developed a character called The Silver Spider for the Crestwood comic Black Magic, who was subsequently not used.Jack Kirby in "Shop Talk: Jack Kirby", Will Eisner's Spirit Magazine #39 (February 1982): "Spider-Man was discussed between Joe Simon and myself. It was the last thing Joe and I had discussed. We had a strip called 'The Silver Spider.' The Silver Spider was going into a magazine called Black Magic. Black Magic folded with Crestwood (Simon & Kirby's 1950s comics company) and we were left with the -script. I believe I said this could become a thing called Spider-Man, see, a superhero character. I had a lot of faith in the superhero character that they could be brought back... and I said Spider-Man would be a fine character to start with. But Joe had already moved on. So the idea was already there when I talked to Stan". Simon, in his 1990 autobiography, disputed Kirby's account, asserting that Black Magic was not a factor, and that he (Simon) devised the name "Spider-Man" (later changed to "The Silver Spider"), while Kirby outlined the character's story and powers. Simon later elaborated that his and Kirby's character conception became the basis for Simon's Archie Comics superhero the Fly. Artist Steve Ditko stated that Lee liked the name Hawkman from DC Comics, and that "Spider-Man" was an outgrowth of that interest. The hyphen was included in the character's name to avoid confusion with DC Comics' Superman.

 

Simon concurred that Kirby had shown the original Spider-Man version to Lee, who liked the idea and assigned Kirby to draw sample pages of the new character but disliked the results—in Simon's description, "Captain America with cobwebs".Simon, Joe, with Jim Simon. The Comic Book Makers (Crestwood/II, 1990) ISBN 1-887591-35-4. "There were a few holes in Jack's never-dependable memory. For instance, there was no Black Magic involved at all. ... Jack brought in the Spider-Man logo that I had loaned to him before we changed the name to The Silver Spider. Kirby laid out the story to Lee about the kid who finds a ring in a spiderweb, gets his powers from the ring, and goes forth to fight crime armed with The Silver Spider's old web-spinning pistol. Stan Lee said, 'Perfect, just what I want.' After obtaining permission from publisher Martin Goodman, Lee told Kirby to pencil-up an origin story. Kirby... using parts of an old rejected superhero named Night Fighter... revamped the old Silver Spider -script, including revisions suggested by Lee. But when Kirby showed Lee the sample pages, it was Lee's turn to gripe. He had been expecting a skinny young kid who is transformed into a skinny young kid with spider powers. Kirby had him turn into... Captain America with cobwebs. He turned Spider-Man over to Steve Ditko, who... ignored Kirby's pages, tossed the character's magic ring, web-pistol and goggles... and completely redesigned Spider-Man's costume and equipment. In this life, he became high-school student Peter Parker, who gets his spider powers after being bitten by a radioactive spider. ... Lastly, the Spider-Man logo was redone and a dashing hyphen added". Writer Mark Evanier notes that Lee's reasoning that Kirby's character was too heroic seems unlikely—Kirby still drew the covers for Amazing Fantasy #15 and the first issue of The Amazing Spider-Man. Evanier also disputes Kirby's given reason that he was "too busy" to also draw Spider-Man in addition to his other duties since Kirby was, said Evanier, "always busy". Neither Lee's nor Kirby's explanation explains why key story elements like the magic ring were dropped; Evanier states that the most plausible explanation for the sudden change was that Goodman, or one of his assistants, decided that Spider-Man as drawn and envisioned by Kirby was too similar to the Fly.

 

Author and Ditko scholar Blake Bell writes that it was Ditko who noted the similarities to the Fly. Ditko recalled that, "Stan called Jack about the Fly", adding that "[d]ays later, Stan told me I would be penciling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis". It was at this point that the nature of the strip changed. "Out went the magic ring, adult Spider-Man and whatever legend ideas that Spider-Man story would have contained". Lee gave Ditko the premise of a teenager bitten by a spider and developing powers, a premise Ditko would expand upon to the point he became what Bell describes as "the first work for hire artist of his generation to create and control the narrative arc of his series". On the issue of the initial creation, Ditko states, "I still don't know whose idea was Spider-Man". Kirby noted in a 1971 interview that it was Ditko who "got Spider-Man to roll, and the thing caught on because of what he did". Lee, while claiming credit for the initial idea, has acknowledged Ditko's role, stating, "If Steve wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves [it]". Writer Al Nickerson believes "that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created the Spider-Man that we are familiar with today [but that] ultimately, Spider-Man came into existence, and prospered, through the efforts of not just one or two, but many, comic book creators".

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Dr. Balls

Dr. Balls

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The story is recapped here

 

Creation and development

 

 

In 1962, with the success of the Fantastic Four, Marvel Comics editor and head writer Stan Lee was casting about for a new superhero idea. He said the idea for Spider-Man arose from a surge in teenage demand for comic books, and the desire to create a character with whom teens could identify. In his autobiography, Lee cites the non-superhuman pulp magazine crime fighter the Spider as a great influence, and in a multitude of print and video interviews, Lee stated he was further inspired by seeing a spider climb up a wall—adding in his autobiography that he has told that story so often he has become unsure of whether or not this is true. Looking back on the creation of Spider-Man, 1990s Marvel editor-in-chief Tom DeFalco stated he did not believe that Spider-Man would have been given a chance in today's comics world, where new characters are vetted with test audiences and marketers. At that time, however, Lee had to get only the consent of Marvel publisher Martin Goodman for the character's approval. In a 1986 interview, Lee described in detail his arguments to overcome Goodman's objections.Detroit Free Press interview with Stan Lee, quoted in The Steve Ditko Reader by Greg Theakston (Pure Imagination, Brooklyn, NY; ISBN 1-56685-011-8), p. 12 (unnumbered). "He gave me 1,000 reasons why Spider-Man would never work. Nobody likes spiders; it sounds too much like Superman; and how could a teenager be a superhero? Then I told him I wanted the character to be a very human guy, someone who makes mistakes, who worries, who gets acne, has trouble with his girlfriend, things like that. [Goodman replied,] 'He's a hero! He's not an average man!' I said, 'No, we make him an average man who happens to have super powers, that's what will make him good.' He told me I was crazy". Goodman eventually agreed to let Lee try out Spider-Man in the upcoming final issue of the canceled science-fiction and supernatural anthology series Amazing Adult Fantasy, which was renamed Amazing Fantasy for that single issue, #15 (Aug. 1962).

Comics historian Greg Theakston says that Lee, after receiving Goodman's approval for the name Spider-Man and the "ordinary teen" concept, approached artist Jack Kirby. Kirby told Lee about an unpublished character on which he collaborated with Joe Simon in the 1950s, in which an orphaned boy living with an old couple finds a magic ring that granted him superhuman powers. Lee and Kirby "immediately sat down for a story conference" and Lee afterward directed Kirby to flesh out the character and draw some pages. Steve Ditko would be the inker. "'Stan said a new Marvel hero would be introduced in #15 [of what became titled Amazing Fantasy]. He would be called Spider-Man. Jack would do the penciling and I was to ink the character.' At this point still, 'Stan said Spider-Man would be a teenager with a magic ring which could transform him into an adult hero—Spider-Man. I said it sounded like the Fly, which Joe Simon had done for Archie Comics. Stan called Jack about it but I don't know what was discussed. I never talked to Jack about Spider-Man... Later, at some point, I was given the job of drawing Spider-Man'". When Kirby showed Lee the first six pages, Lee recalled, "I hated the way he was doing it! Not that he did it badly—it just wasn't the character I wanted; it was too heroic". Lee turned to Ditko, who developed a visual style Lee found satisfactory. Ditko recalled:

Although the interior artwork was by Ditko alone, Lee rejected Ditko's cover art and commissioned Kirby to pencil a cover that Ditko inked. As Lee explained in 2010, "I think I had Jack sketch out a cover for it because I always had a lot of confidence in Jack's covers."

 

In an early recollection of the character's creation, Ditko described his and Lee's contributions in a mail interview with Gary Martin published in Comic Fan #2 (Summer 1965): "Stan Lee thought the name up. I did costume, web gimmick on wrist & spider signal." At the time, Ditko shared a Manhattan studio with noted fetish artist Eric Stanton, an art-school classmate who, in a 1988 interview with Theakston, recalled that although his contribution to Spider-Man was "almost nil", he and Ditko had "worked on storyboards together and I added a few ideas. But the whole thing was created by Steve on his own... I think I added the business about the webs coming out of his hands".

 

Kirby disputed Lee's version of the story, and claimed Lee had minimal involvement in the character's creation. According to Kirby, the idea for Spider-Man had originated with Kirby and Joe Simon, who in the 1950s had developed a character called The Silver Spider for the Crestwood comic Black Magic, who was subsequently not used.Jack Kirby in "Shop Talk: Jack Kirby", Will Eisner's Spirit Magazine #39 (February 1982): "Spider-Man was discussed between Joe Simon and myself. It was the last thing Joe and I had discussed. We had a strip called 'The Silver Spider.' The Silver Spider was going into a magazine called Black Magic. Black Magic folded with Crestwood (Simon & Kirby's 1950s comics company) and we were left with the -script. I believe I said this could become a thing called Spider-Man, see, a superhero character. I had a lot of faith in the superhero character that they could be brought back... and I said Spider-Man would be a fine character to start with. But Joe had already moved on. So the idea was already there when I talked to Stan". Simon, in his 1990 autobiography, disputed Kirby's account, asserting that Black Magic was not a factor, and that he (Simon) devised the name "Spider-Man" (later changed to "The Silver Spider"), while Kirby outlined the character's story and powers. Simon later elaborated that his and Kirby's character conception became the basis for Simon's Archie Comics superhero the Fly. Artist Steve Ditko stated that Lee liked the name Hawkman from DC Comics, and that "Spider-Man" was an outgrowth of that interest. The hyphen was included in the character's name to avoid confusion with DC Comics' Superman.

 

Simon concurred that Kirby had shown the original Spider-Man version to Lee, who liked the idea and assigned Kirby to draw sample pages of the new character but disliked the results—in Simon's description, "Captain America with cobwebs".Simon, Joe, with Jim Simon. The Comic Book Makers (Crestwood/II, 1990) ISBN 1-887591-35-4. "There were a few holes in Jack's never-dependable memory. For instance, there was no Black Magic involved at all. ... Jack brought in the Spider-Man logo that I had loaned to him before we changed the name to The Silver Spider. Kirby laid out the story to Lee about the kid who finds a ring in a spiderweb, gets his powers from the ring, and goes forth to fight crime armed with The Silver Spider's old web-spinning pistol. Stan Lee said, 'Perfect, just what I want.' After obtaining permission from publisher Martin Goodman, Lee told Kirby to pencil-up an origin story. Kirby... using parts of an old rejected superhero named Night Fighter... revamped the old Silver Spider -script, including revisions suggested by Lee. But when Kirby showed Lee the sample pages, it was Lee's turn to gripe. He had been expecting a skinny young kid who is transformed into a skinny young kid with spider powers. Kirby had him turn into... Captain America with cobwebs. He turned Spider-Man over to Steve Ditko, who... ignored Kirby's pages, tossed the character's magic ring, web-pistol and goggles... and completely redesigned Spider-Man's costume and equipment. In this life, he became high-school student Peter Parker, who gets his spider powers after being bitten by a radioactive spider. ... Lastly, the Spider-Man logo was redone and a dashing hyphen added". Writer Mark Evanier notes that Lee's reasoning that Kirby's character was too heroic seems unlikely—Kirby still drew the covers for Amazing Fantasy #15 and the first issue of The Amazing Spider-Man. Evanier also disputes Kirby's given reason that he was "too busy" to also draw Spider-Man in addition to his other duties since Kirby was, said Evanier, "always busy". Neither Lee's nor Kirby's explanation explains why key story elements like the magic ring were dropped; Evanier states that the most plausible explanation for the sudden change was that Goodman, or one of his assistants, decided that Spider-Man as drawn and envisioned by Kirby was too similar to the Fly.

 

Author and Ditko scholar Blake Bell writes that it was Ditko who noted the similarities to the Fly. Ditko recalled that, "Stan called Jack about the Fly", adding that "[d]ays later, Stan told me I would be penciling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis". It was at this point that the nature of the strip changed. "Out went the magic ring, adult Spider-Man and whatever legend ideas that Spider-Man story would have contained". Lee gave Ditko the premise of a teenager bitten by a spider and developing powers, a premise Ditko would expand upon to the point he became what Bell describes as "the first work for hire artist of his generation to create and control the narrative arc of his series". On the issue of the initial creation, Ditko states, "I still don't know whose idea was Spider-Man". Kirby noted in a 1971 interview that it was Ditko who "got Spider-Man to roll, and the thing caught on because of what he did". Lee, while claiming credit for the initial idea, has acknowledged Ditko's role, stating, "If Steve wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves [it]". Writer Al Nickerson believes "that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created the Spider-Man that we are familiar with today [but that] ultimately, Spider-Man came into existence, and prospered, through the efforts of not just one or two, but many, comic book creators".

 

Cramped leading...making eyes hurt...reads like stereo instructions...

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