Dr. Wertham's general arguments put forward in SOTI...

[AtlasFan]

I also find it interesting that a genuine comic related topic and a potentially interesting one like this one has received so few replies but Roy's useless epiphany thread (OT all the way) has gotten tons of responses.

 

Sounds like a mandate from the inmates. We only want nonsense here in CG.

 

Interesting observation...

 

I have never read SOTI. I try my best to comment on things that I have at least a passing knowledge of. At the least, this thread does make me want to hit the local library and give it a read.

 

That last sentence made me laugh at first, but then it made me wonder. Does anyone know of a regular ol' library that actually still has a copy of SOTI? One that people could actually borrow? I figure all copies have been stolen from the libraries by now...

 

I can see this being one of those books that got "permanently borrowed" from libraries.

 

Well, thats where I got mine!

 

Gee, I wonder what the late fee is from 1978? Please dont tell the Library Cop!

[comicwiz]

I also find it interesting that a genuine comic related topic and a potentially interesting one like this one has received so few replies but Roy's useless epiphany thread (OT all the way) has gotten tons of responses.

 

Sounds like a mandate from the inmates. We only want nonsense here in CG.

 

Interesting observation...

 

I have never read SOTI. I try my best to comment on things that I have at least a passing knowledge of. At the least, this thread does make me want to hit the local library and give it a read.

 

That last sentence made me laugh at first, but then it made me wonder. Does anyone know of a regular ol' library that actually still has a copy of SOTI? One that people could actually borrow? I figure all copies have been stolen from the libraries by now...

 

I can see this being one of those books that got "permanently borrowed" from libraries.

 

Well, thats where I got mine!

 

Gee, I wonder what the late fee is from 1978? Please don't tell the Library Cop!

 

I've got a few of those from the early 70's too. I was thinking about this the other day as one of them was a really good hockey book. As a kid, I must have flipped through that book hundreds of times.

[comicwiz]

I remember the homeless gambler one on regular TV as a kid.

 

Seriously? Do you happen to remember the title? I tried searching under "Gambling Bug" but it pointed me to later episodes where that character appeared.

[excelsior1986]

While i reject his theories, i do have to say that he did make some valid points in some of his arguments, but when something cameup that proved him right, he exaggerated it to the fullest extent to where it sounds rediculous. I think he wouldve been even more succesful if he just reported his true findings and didnt exxagerate everything or take situations out of context.

 

On the first page someone mentioned that 40% of 6 year olds would rather have their television than their own father. It makes me wonder how much of a deadbeat those fathers are to have their own 6 year old choose a tv over them. If thats the case maybe those children are better off without a dad.

 

It pretty much boils down to how you teach your children. Theyre going to see movies, read comics that you dont want them to no matter how hard you try to prevent it, but its how you teach them to know right from wrong that will matter in the end.

[Prince Namor]

I remember the homeless gambler one on regular TV as a kid.

 

Seriously? Do you happen to remember the title? I tried searching under "Gambling Bug" but it pointed me to later episodes where that character appeared.

 

No, I was pretty young. 8-10 maybe.

[comicwiz]

Here I've spent the better part of the afternoon railing on WB cartoons - guess what our 6-year old brought back from the library?

 

The Sensational Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes - 20 classics on 2 discs

[Jeffro.]

 

Gee, I wonder what the late fee is from 1978? Please dont tell the Library Cop!

 

He's one

[Hibou]

Here I've spent the better part of the afternoon railing on WB cartoons - guess what our 6-year old brought back from the library?

 

The Sensational Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes - 20 classics on 2 discs

 

 

I'm not laughing at you but that is classic!

[Park]

I also find it interesting that a genuine comic related topic and a potentially interesting one like this one has received so few replies but Roy's useless epiphany thread (OT all the way) has gotten tons of responses.

 

Sounds like a mandate from the inmates. We only want nonsense here in CG.

 

Interesting observation...

 

I have never read SOTI. I try my best to comment on things that I have at least a passing knowledge of. At the least, this thread does make me want to hit the local library and give it a read.

 

That last sentence made me laugh at first, but then it made me wonder. Does anyone know of a regular ol' library that actually still has a copy of SOTI? One that people could actually borrow? I figure all copies have been stolen from the libraries by now...

 

I can see this being one of those books that got "permanently borrowed" from libraries.

 

I have been looking on the library websites around here and you may be correct.

[comicwiz]

SCARY :

 

Confessed mass killer Anders Behring Breivik testified Thursday that he had planned to capture and decapitate former Norwegian Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland during his shooting massacre on Utoya island...

 

[the beheading] ...was meant to be used as a very powerful psychological weapon," he said...

 

Breivik also testified that he had prepared for his attacks by cutting off contact with the outside world and devoting himself to two computer games — "Modern Warfare" and "''World of Warcraft," playing the second one for 16 hours a day.

 

There is bound to be a Wertham-esque anti-video game fallout from this...

[sniderwj]

I don't see how WoW is training for this kind of action. All that I would get out of Breivik saying this is that he has detached himself from reality. He pretty much admits that by saying that he cut off contact with the world.

 

I'm waiting to see if Jack Thompson rears his ugly head over this.

[jerome34]

Wertham's basis was: "Juvenile Delinquents read comics; therefore comics create

Juvenile Delinquents." He did not bother to find out that ALL kids read comics.

 

When his basic premise was so badly flawed, his whole book has been rejected by many.

He was correct that there was stuff in comics that was not appropriate for kids. He

did not even think about the possibility that some comics were intended for older

kids. The EC comics and Mad were very popular at colleges.

 

So far, no one has mentioned Legman's "Love and War" (if I remember the title correctly).

His argument was "Why is war and violence acceptable but love is not?" Unfortunately,

most current references to his work treat it as being anti-comic. I do not think

that was the case. The same argument in his book could be applied to movies, TV,

books and any other forms of entertainment.

[jerome34]

Correction:

The Legman book is:

Legman, Gershon "Love and Death" (first edition is 1949; second edition is 1963).

 

I should have gotten up and checked before I posted the above.

[Hibou]

Wertham's basis was: "Juvenile Delinquents read comics; therefore comics create

Juvenile Delinquents." He did not bother to find out that ALL kids read comics.

 

When his basic premise was so badly flawed, his whole book has been rejected by many.

He was correct that there was stuff in comics that was not appropriate for kids. He

did not even think about the possibility that some comics were intended for older

kids. The EC comics and Mad were very popular at colleges.

 

So far, no one has mentioned Legman's "Love and War" (if I remember the title correctly).

His argument was "Why is war and violence acceptable but love is not?" Unfortunately,

most current references to his work treat it as being anti-comic. I do not think

that was the case. The same argument in his book could be applied to movies, TV,

books and any other forms of entertainment.

 

Well said... (and with the correction noted)

[Hibou]

There's nothing wrong with this is there...

 

(1947)

 

[Senormac]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

[Senormac]

I wonder what Wertham thought of the 3 stooges ??

[goldust40]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

[Senormac]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does not do me .... nor I think anybody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I think Wertham was pointing to this same idea, and comic books were the CSI show of his day

 

Some of my earliest tv favs concerning crime were....

 

Dragnet

Adam 12

Hawaii Five O

 

 

[goldust40]

Interesting thread, as long as it remains civil. I have seen the anti-wertham crowd go rabid in mere moments over anyone who takes a pro wertham stand... and reduce the discussion to a battle zone where mods have to sort the debris

 

Can't recall that ever happening here.

 

To be honest, I can't either.... but theres always the chance

 

I myself am a supporter of Wethams work. To me, Crime comics are no better than trash. There is nothing redeeming about crime, and I don't want to spend any of my time "learning more about it", how the minds of criminals work, or what attrocities criminals commit. I understand that this is not the norm in the Hollywood, television and pop culture world, but I never said I was normal

Why is the Godfather one of the most popular movies in history. Its a story about criminals and a criminal family. Why do shows like CSI have such a huge following ? What goodness or virtue can be gleaned from that stuff ? To teach people how NOT to behave ? Thats retarded.

 

Anyways, I was thinking about the tv shows I watched as a kid and growing up and how many of them are crime related. Alot actually. I think seeing good win out in the end is the foundation and appeal of them originally, but in recent years the focus has shifted (IMO) to "how evil, wicked, deranged, criminal and horrific" the bad guys are who are going to be overcome by good at the end of the story. I don't want to know. That information does me .... and I think nobody.... any good.

 

A good vs evil storyline is pretty basic to writing since forever, but I think the focus on HOW evil the evil guys are, is dangerous to the population as a whole. We are all being led. The question is which direction are we being led?

 

I would assume that with entertainment that the viewer should rarely look to pop culture for lessons in how to behave, or which direction to turn, especially with genre films and comics. Nobody is being led anywhere, unless their grip on reality is tenuous.

 

In the case of The Godfather films, there is an element of intrinsic irresponsibility involved (as they did reflexively influence organized crime, both nascent and established). However there is a case for the first two films that they are not exploitative and are genuinely artistic, in that they show the pernicious and corruptive nature of organized crime on Michael and Kay Corleone.

 

Wertham is a controversial figure of course, but then again the content of crime comics that were being sold to children in the 1950s was equally contentious. Wertham's theories were alarmist and specious, in that he blamed all juvenile delinquency on comics and not other factors. Plus the vast majority of children who read such books did not indulge in criminal behaviour.

 

However (again!) those books were too graphic, forensic and violent for pre-teens, so Wertham got something right. The irony of course was that due to his book the industry gained longevity, as it was forced to regroup due to the code, and reconnect with its readership through other means.

 

The trouble is, is that a lot of, if not most, great art, literature, drama and music is based on conflict, which is often violent. And then, conversely, there is exploitation and the current trend on television for cold forensic analysis of the criminal mind. I'm not an apologist for the latter, and there's no denying it must have a deleterious effect on those who know no better, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be vilified.