Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[VintageComics]

People seem to be equating restoration removal or pressing as a crime, that forensics should be used to uncover said crime, and that if CGC has evidence of this crime or can interpret the intent of a change to the state of a comic that they should give it some sort of red-flag demarcation. Restoration and manipulation of a comic book is not a crime, so intent is irrelevant. Comic book grading is about evaluating the current state of a comic, not a past state. A comic has restoration, or it doesn't. This in-between "intentionally tampered with!!!" state people want to assign to an unrestored comic is an illusion.

 

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know.

 

It seems simple and logical enough.

 

Maybe Zatannah can help with this one too.

 

[VintageComics]

I intend to shift to focus on customers -- and dealers -- who are willing to take the risks for pressing and upgrading. This will also give the opportunity to customers who wish to buy raw high and ultra high grade unpressed books.

 

Spam.

 

 

[seanfingh]

People seem to be equating restoration removal or pressing as a crime, that forensics should be used to uncover said crime, and that if CGC has evidence of this crime or can interpret the intent of a change to the state of a comic that they should give it some sort of red-flag demarcation. Restoration and manipulation of a comic book is not a crime, so intent is irrelevant. Comic book grading is about evaluating the current state of a comic, not a past state. A comic has restoration, or it doesn't. This in-between "intentionally tampered with!!!" state people want to assign to an unrestored comic is an illusion.

 

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know.

 

It seems simple and logical enough.

 

Maybe Zatannah can help with this one too.

 

Maybe she can read it to me backwards so it appears germane to anything.

[VintageComics]

People seem to be equating restoration removal or pressing as a crime, that forensics should be used to uncover said crime, and that if CGC has evidence of this crime or can interpret the intent of a change to the state of a comic that they should give it some sort of red-flag demarcation. Restoration and manipulation of a comic book is not a crime, so intent is irrelevant. Comic book grading is about evaluating the current state of a comic, not a past state. A comic has restoration, or it doesn't. This in-between "intentionally tampered with!!!" state people want to assign to an unrestored comic is an illusion.

 

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know.

 

It seems simple and logical enough.

 

Maybe Zatannah can help with this one too.

 

Maybe she can read it to me backwards so it appears germane to anything.

 

It's absolutely germane to the discussion of what responsibilities the graders have. Whether they should be giving their impartial opinion to the book as it sits in front of them or whether they should look for intent.

[seanfingh]

People seem to be equating restoration removal or pressing as a crime, that forensics should be used to uncover said crime, and that if CGC has evidence of this crime or can interpret the intent of a change to the state of a comic that they should give it some sort of red-flag demarcation. Restoration and manipulation of a comic book is not a crime, so intent is irrelevant. Comic book grading is about evaluating the current state of a comic, not a past state. A comic has restoration, or it doesn't. This in-between "intentionally tampered with!!!" state people want to assign to an unrestored comic is an illusion.

 

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know.

 

It seems simple and logical enough.

 

Maybe Zatannah can help with this one too.

 

Maybe she can read it to me backwards so it appears germane to anything.

 

It's absolutely germane to the discussion of what responsibilities the graders have. Whether they should be giving their impartial opinion to the book as it sits in front of them or whether they should look for intent.

 

I guess that makes sense. FF deserves a groin punch for quoting and responding to himself.

 

But they still don't have to look for intent to know that they are seeing a ________ Pedigree book that has had defects pressed out.

[VintageComics]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

[seanfingh]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

[VintageComics]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

 

I look good in a top hat.

 

 

[seanfingh]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

 

I look good in a top hat.

 

What about the fishnets?

[VintageComics]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

 

I look good in a top hat.

 

What about the fishnets?

 

I've only been able to wear them under leather pants.

 

 

[trmoore54]

Converserly, as undergraded books are identified and flip hands and work their way through the ringer(s) (and make no mistake, there are books out there that have been pressed, re-pressed, and post-re-pressed as the new "owners/investors" have no history that a book has already been pressed and re-pressed), the % of overgraded CGC books will increase as each book is maxed out. That, and the loosening of CGC's standards over the last few years, has resulted in an overall population of CGC graded books that lean towards the low end of the grade spectrum.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar.

 

If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot.

A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run.

 

These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough.

 

Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential...

 

 

I feel squishy now...

 

Up to page 73 so far...I feel like I'm in a marathon...

[TupennyConan]

Read my posts twice.

[Davenport]

 

Davenport is trying to uncover a hidden conspiracy. I'm trying to show there wasn't one.

 

a) I did not forget about PCS. We are talking about initially, not what can happen after.

 

b) I mean pressing wasn't hidden. There was no hidden agenda by CGC to hide pressing from the general public and anybody that asked got a straight answer.

Hidden conspiracy? Seriously?

It's a successful business model imported from coins. Paper is just easier to manipulate than metal, and here we are.

 

There's nothing mysterious about it.

[Columbia Comics]

Read my posts twice.

 

I feel dumber reading them only once.

[batman_fan]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

 

I look good in a top hat.

 

What about the fishnets?

 

he pictures the leg hair poking through ...

[seanfingh]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

 

I look good in a top hat.

 

What about the fishnets?

 

he pictures the leg hair poking through ...

 

The black and gray curls spilling out of the top hat weren't enough?

[batman_fan]

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

 

Thanks, Royh

 

I look good in a top hat.

 

What about the fishnets?

 

he pictures the leg hair poking through ...

 

The black and gray curls spilling out of the top hat weren't enough?

 

[COI]

He said that that particular book had been graded by CGC at least 6 times

 

b-b-b-but I thought only the books Brulato and Schmell fought over were submitted multiples times?

[COI]

I really liked graded books in 2001. Y'all ed everything up.

[Comicopolis]