Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[Flaming_Telepath]

 

Sound bite.

 

Fact.

 

It might be a fact as an abstract model but Borock already came on here and admitted that pressing and resubmission was

 

a) not built into the original CGC model - Initially no but did you forget PCS? Just because it wasn't initially part of the plan doesn't mean it can't be a few years later. How can resubmission not be part of the initial model, that's just mind boggling.

b) was not shared with only a select group of people. [i]Sorry I don't understand. Did you mean to say it wasn't shared with the masses only a select group of clientele because that was the impression I got back then? [/i]

 

So your model doesn't really apply.

 

So it is therefore just sensationalism and sound bite.

 

Davenport is trying to uncover a hidden conspiracy. I'm trying to show there wasn't one.

 

a) I did not forget about PCS. We are talking about initially, not what can happen after.

 

b) I mean pressing wasn't hidden. There was no hidden agenda by CGC to hide pressing from the general public and anybody that asked got a straight answer.

 

I don't believe either of those statements.

[VintageComics]

I don't believe either of those statements.

 

Fair enough.

 

It's difficult to prove (a) because nobody really knows anything except for what people (like Borock) say.

 

It's easier to prove (b) because i) it's documented that people were pressing well before the inception of CGC and ii) it's documented that if anyone asked CGC about pressing would have gotten a straight answer about it

[namisgr]

It's easier to prove (b) because i) it's documented that people were pressing well before the inception of CGC

 

This type of qualitative statement is frequently trotted out to legitimize the current state of slabbed grading, but the problem is a quantitative one: there's so much pressed high grade now, and the volume has been and is continuing to increase exponentially, that it's increasingly difficult to find uncommon high grade books that haven't been pressed.

 

Bringing CI into the CCG fold will only heighten the quantitative problem.

[VintageComics]

It's easier to prove (b) because i) it's documented that people were pressing well before the inception of CGC

 

This type of qualitative statement is frequently trotted out to legitimize the current state of slabbed grading, but the problem is a quantitative one: there's so much pressed high grade now, and the volume continues to increase exponentially, that it's increasingly difficult to find uncommon high grade books that haven't been pressed.

 

Bringing CI into the CCG fold will only heighten the quantitative problem.

 

Many discussions going on at once.

 

Nobody is disputing that the amount of pressed books will increase over time.

 

We weren't discussing whether there were pressed books before CGC. We were discussing whether CGC was trying to hide pressing and keep it exclusive to only a select few.

 

They weren't.

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

It's easier to prove (b) because i) it's documented that people were pressing well before the inception of CGC

 

This type of qualitative statement is frequently trotted out to legitimize the current state of slabbed grading, but the problem is a quantitative one: there's so much pressed high grade now, and the volume continues to increase exponentially, that it's increasingly difficult to find uncommon high grade books that haven't been pressed.

 

Bringing CI into the CCG fold will only heighten the quantitative problem.

 

Many discussions going on at once.

 

Nobody is disputing that the amount of pressed books will increase over time.

 

We weren't discussing whether there were pressed books before CGC. We were discussing whether CGC was trying to hide pressing and keep it exclusive to only a select few.

 

Ever heard the expression 'it's not what you say, it's what you don't say that matters'.

 

That was CGC's approach to pressing. From day one, they should have made a public announcement through every media available that they did not consider pressing restoration. After all, that stance flew in the face of the industry's - and the industry's bible, Overstreet's - definition of restoration.

 

Rather a huge shift, don't you think? And as such, possibly worthy of widespread, proactive dissemination?

[Davenport]

Ever heard the expression 'it's not what you say, it's what you don't say that matters'.

 

That was CGC's approach to pressing. From day one, they should have made a public announcement through every media available that they did not consider pressing restoration. After all, that stance flew in the face of the industry's - and the industry's bible, Overstreet's - definition of restoration.

 

Rather a huge shift, don't you think? And as such, possibly worthy of widespread, proactive dissemination?

BOOM.

 

Reality check, point blank.

 

Serious question: How many years was CGC's rollout? Before everything was fully and officially confirmed?

(off the top of my head it seems like 6 or 7 years, maybe longer. But I may be prone to sensationalism, or so I'm told. )

[VintageComics]

Ever heard the expression 'it's not what you say, it's what you don't say that matters'.

 

That was CGC's approach to pressing. From day one, they should have made a public announcement through every media available that they did not consider pressing restoration. After all, that stance flew in the face of the industry's - and the industry's bible, Overstreet's - definition of restoration.

 

Rather a huge shift, don't you think? And as such, possibly worthy of widespread, proactive dissemination?

 

I have and I agree.

 

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

The simple addition of humidity in a humid climate will soften paper fibres and remove defects from a book just sitting on a table.

 

The simple addition of gravity to apply pressure on a book (something we have all been doing since childhood) will straighten out defects on a book.

 

It's very different than something additive and intrusive, that much cannot be disputed.

 

I genuinely believe that the outrage is not because pressing is considered evil, it's because money is being made from pressing.

 

And quite honestly, since Overstreet has made some mistakes (IMO - like when allowed staples to be replaced on Vintage books up to VF) he himself is not the be-all and end-all.

 

Let's face it, OSPG grading standards evolved into what they were in 1970 from a bunch of geeky collectors, evolved from 1970 until today and are still evolving currently.

 

BOOM.

 

Reality check, point blank.

 

Serious question: How many years was CGC's rollout? Before everything was fully and officially confirmed?

(off the top of my head it seems like 6 or 7 years, maybe longer. But I may be prone to sensationalism, or so I'm told. )

 

No "BOOM" whatsoever. I knew a few years in that CGC had not considered pressing restoration. CGC themselves told me. It wasn't a secret by any means.

 

Yes you like to use power words on a regular basis to try to emphasize (and sensationalize) your posts.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace.

[trmoore54]

I know I'm getting really tired of gift grades from pre-hero Marvels that I've both submitted myself and purchased through various auction houses and/or eBay. That might be contributing to some of the price relaxation that we've seen too. If you are paying premium money you want a premium book (or at least an accurately graded one), and when you get a 9.4 book with a 9.8 label or a 5.5 book with a 6.5 label it starts getting discouraging. This, more than anything else it seems to me, is what has opened the door for something like CVA, as there are plenty of books out there lately that don't deserve the label they have.

 

CVA needs to come up with a negative sticker...something subtle like...

 

NOT!

[Dale Roberts]

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace.

 

Actually, the generally collecting populace had no idea what pressing was, and for the most part, they still don't know what it is. Most who do know don't care.

 

Most books I knew about back in the day that had been "cleaned and pressed" were not dry cleaned, but actually chemically washed and pressed back to dryness. And that is alot of the stigma that was initially associated with pressing.

 

 

[VintageComics]

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace.

 

No it may not have been. But that's because the thought didn't even cross some people's minds. Some people just don't think that way. Doesn't mean nobody does. Not everyone is inventive. Every time I look at something I try to figure out how it's made or how it can be improved. It's the way my mind works. Others might just see a lamp, or a door knob or a wheel. Pressing is the same. Someone just took what kids have been doing and made it work better.

 

Again, I honestly believe that the reason people who dislike pressing are outraged is because of the money. Not even the grade increases. If the grade increases didn't = more money they probably wouldn't care half as much.

 

If you remove the money from the discussion and just look at it on a scale of 1 - 100 with 100 being a full on extensive restoration job where much of the book was worked on (pieces added, colour touch, cleaning, staples replaced, glue, etc) where does pressing fall on the scale?

 

10 or less? 5 or less? I mean what was done to the book?

 

The book was pressed. It was placed under something heavy and pressed. Nothing added, nothing taken away. Same weight, same molecular makeup, same size. Everything the same.

 

EDIT: To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published.

 

So if a professionally pressed book gets a low score like a 5 or a 10 out of 100, what does an Encyclopedia pressed book get?

 

To me pressing is a 2 or a 3 out of 100. It's negligible.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

The procedure is so benign, so non-intrusive and so painfully obvious because we all pressed our books as kids that this is the reason people don't even consider it resto.

 

People are upset about the dollars not the pressing itself.

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

I'm not entirely sure that 'To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published' is a great argument, considering that a book is also trimmed when it's published.

 

And I've never said that pressing was akin to selling your grandmother into prostitution. I've maintain that it's the most benign form of restoration...but remains in my mind restoration.

 

And as of 2000, it was classified as restoration, no matter how benign it might be seen as now.

 

Therefore an announcement would have been appropriate.

 

And the money doesn't matter to me...the deception does, as does the fact that books that were previously high grade by the grace of the gods are now high grade by the grace of the waffle machine.

 

Sorta takes the fun out of it for me.

[october]

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace.

 

Money has a lot to do with it, on both sides of the issue. Where is/was the outrage over dry cleaning? That's a restorative procedure that alters a book's appearace and perceived level of preservation even more than pressing in many cases. It doesn't seem to bump the grade as much though, or alter the value of a book to the same degree, so it draws not 1% of the scrutiny that pressing does.

[gaz973]

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace.

 

No it may not have been. But that's because the thought didn't even cross some people's minds. Some people just don't think that way. Doesn't mean nobody does. Not everyone is inventive. Every time I look at something I try to figure out how it's made or how it can be improved. It's the way my mind works. Others might just see a lamp, or a door knob or a wheel. Pressing is the same. Someone just took what kids have been doing and made it work better.

 

Again, I honestly believe that the reason people who dislike pressing are outraged is because of the money. Not even the grade increases. If the grade increases didn't = more money they probably wouldn't care half as much.

 

If you remove the money from the discussion and just look at it on a scale of 1 - 100 with 100 being a full on extensive restoration job where much of the book was worked on (pieces added, colour touch, cleaning, staples replaced, glue, etc) where does pressing fall on the scale?

 

10 or less? 5 or less? I mean what was done to the book?

 

The book was pressed. It was placed under something heavy and pressed. Nothing added, nothing taken away. Same weight, same molecular makeup, same size. Everything the same.

 

EDIT: To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published.

 

So if a professionally pressed book gets a low score like a 5 or a 10 out of 100, what does an Encyclopedia pressed book get?

 

To me pressing is a 2 or a 3 out of 100. It's negligible.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

The procedure is so benign, so non-intrusive and so painfully obvious because we all pressed our books as kids that this is the reason people don't even consider it resto.

 

People are upset about the dollars not the pressing itself.

I disagree. In my case it definitely wasn't the money and in the cases of most people I know who dislike pressing, money wasn't the thing that bugged them. In a lot of cases, it's just the way that someone looks at the hobby.

 

Look at it this way, why would the people complaining about pressing not just take up pressing to recoup at least some of their losses if it was just about the money. The money is on the side of the pressers so anyone who is mainly concerned about the financial side of it would be better served in starting pressing than complaining about it.

 

I'm not even collecting anymore, just selling my collection yet I won't have a book pressed ever. What does that tell you about my motivation for disliking pressing?

[Transplant]

This is not really a pressing or resto thread, but people want to make it one. Even when that argument has already been done to death.

 

When does something become or create the appearance of a conflict?

[gaz973]

.

 

And the money doesn't matter to me...the deception does, as does the fact that books that were previously high grade by the grace of the gods are now high grade by the grace of the waffle machine.

 

Sorta takes the fun out of it for me.

This.

[comicwiz]

People are upset about the dollars not the pressing itself.

 

It's partly the tactics.

 

Mitigating resistance by quietly changing the notion that pressing wasn't restoration.

 

Trying their hand at PCS and retreating when the angry mobs formed.

 

Waiting.

 

More waiting.

 

Then retrying with CI.

 

Reminds me of the same tactics used by businesses who aren't welcome in host communities when they're proposing waste disposal sites or nuclear reactor builds.

 

Nothing to worry about. Talk about the jobs and money. The economic boost it will create.

 

And when that doesn't go over well, they keep appealing, and retrying until they've bought everyone out, or used passage of time as the perfect antidote for apathy.

 

Putting tactics aside for a moment, people are mostly upset with this announcement because they've turned a new chapter on refusing to listen, putting a lid on negative community feedback from the first go around, and made a mockery of impartiality in comics certification.

[VintageComics]

I disagree. In my case it definitely wasn't the money and in the cases of most people I know who dislike pressing, money wasn't the thing that bugged them. In a lot of cases, it's just the way that someone looks at the hobby.

 

Fair enough how you feel about it. I just think most of the outrage came from the money involved.

 

[VintageComics]

Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence.

 

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace.

 

Money has a lot to do with it, on both sides of the issue. Where is/was the outrage over dry cleaning? That's a restorative procedure that alters a book's appearace and perceived level of preservation even more than pressing in many cases. It doesn't seem to bump the grade as much though, or alter the value of a book to the same degree, so it draws not 1% of the scrutiny that pressing does.

 

Very good point I had not thought about...and it's been going on since Hector was a pup.

 

 

[mintcollector]

Just is just my opinion, but please do not attempt to compare the pressing of comic books to another collecting field that you may not be educated in. All that this does is either make you look like you do not know what you are talking about; or causes someone who is knowledgeable in the stated field to come and state facts, thus proving you wrong.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is so undeserved. It's pretty clear that you don't know who you are 'talking' to on these boards. If so, you might not be so confident in your 'expertise.'

 

When it comes to the hobby we talk about on these pages most of the time, I'll take Moondog's opinion over yours any day.

 

OPINION duly noted.

 

 

 

 

Moondog is truly an expert in the field of comics and one who is very well respected. He's also a very bright, thoughtful and kind person, overall.

 

 

 

As stated before. I do not doubt that Moondog is very knowledgeable in the field of comic books. The issue at hand however, was that we were talking about comparing the subject of 'pressing' to what occurs in other collecting fields. I have commented about this multiple times throughout this thread.The comparison of currency (i,.e paper money) is a very bad one (with no offense taken to Moondog or anyone else who brought this issue up). As I have previously stated by citing various examples as to what goes on in other collecting fields; when you 'press' paper money you are actually 'damaging' it by causing a true loss of embossing (raised inks) that can never again be regained through any means. This is why grading companies have established the 'EPQ' and 'PPQ' designations. PMG uses 'EPQ' and PCGS Currency uses 'PPQ.' It should be noted that both grading companies do have different grading standards. For instance PMG (owned by the Certified Collectibles Group) will NOT grade a piece of paper money higher than a '64' that does NOT have 'EPQ.' PCGS Currency on the other hand, will. Personally, I prefer PMG's approach as it ensures that those who engage in such a practice can only be rewarded to a certain degree; should they wish to use their grading services.

 

Respectfully yours,

 

'mint'

 

Edited to add: Happy Thanksgiving to all! And to correct my number! It should be '64', not '65' in respect to how high a piece of currency can get graded by PMG without requiring 'EPQ'. Sorry!

Edited November 22, 2012 by mintcollector