Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[VintageComics]

It's partly the tactics.

 

Mitigating resistance by quietly changing the notion that pressing wasn't restoration.

 

Which Overstreet changes ever went out with a memo, trumpets and a march?

 

 

But it wasn't Overstreet who changed it?

 

And CGC stated that they were broadly following Overstreet guidelines, sooooooo....

 

I'm too tired to keep doing this.

 

 

A good arse-kicking can do that.

 

No, arse is not kicked.

 

Taking on a 1/2 dozen different conversations at once can get you real tired, though.

 

As I mentioned, Overstreet likely changed their designation of pressing being resto because pressing was originally grouped with other procedures, much like it was designated on CGC labels simply because it was done with a wash.

 

So where was it that Overstreet mentioned pressing as resto? I just checked my 33rd OSPG and I wasn't able to see it under the Resto section.

 

And while CGC "broadly followed Overstreet's guidelines" many knew or quickly found out that they veered off in some areas.

[COI]

Actually, the generally collecting populace had no idea what pressing was, and for the most part, they still don't know what it is. Most who do know don't care.

 

That's because the one's that care leave the hobby.

[Logan510]

Actually, the generally collecting populace had no idea what pressing was, and for the most part, they still don't know what it is. Most who do know don't care.

 

That's because the one's that care leave the hobby.

 

The hobby of what? Flipping comics or buying and reading comics?

[oakman29]

There's just something so indescribably cool to find a high grade book that has made it through 40 years,without any kind of manipulation.I think some of you have forgotten how awesome that is.I just had to say it.Back to your discussion.

[Logan510]

There's just something so indescribably cool to find a high grade book that has made it through 40 years,without any kind of manipulation.I think some of you have forgotten how awesome that is.I just had to say it.Back to your discussion.

 

 

That is pretty cool. Another cool thing is finding a raw book that's easily a 9.6 that you pay $125 for, pressing it, slabbing it and selling it for $1000. Then using some of that profit to buy complete runs of She-Hulk and Team America

[catrick339]

There's just something so indescribably cool to find a high grade book that has made it through 40 years,without any kind of manipulation.I think some of you have forgotten how awesome that is.I just had to say it.Back to your discussion.

 

 

That is pretty cool. Another cool thing is finding a raw book that's easily a 9.6 that you pay $125 for, pressing it, slabbing it and selling it for $1000. Then using some of that profit to buy complete runs of She-Hulk and Team America

 

What'd you do with the other $860?

[The Amazing Chump]

I can't. Can't. read 100+ pages of this, so I'll just chime in with my opinion. I'm sure it's duplicative of something else you've seen but here goes:

 

This actually makes sense in many ways, and doesn't really call into question their moral fiber. It boils down to whether you believe their stated grading method. Three graders independently get an unmarked book and provide their grades in a vacuum. If that doesn't change, then their impartiality still isn't in doubt. They're just building economies of scale and specialization. Classics does a resto check, freeing the graders up to grade (faster we can all hope). The graders still grade in a vacuum. Doesn't really change all that much.

 

From the collector perspective it certainly codifies the necessity of pressing to achieve high grades. That they bought the company (instead of some kind of strategic partnership) means they're acknowledging this, as well as keeping their preferred provider close to hand. They benefit from Classics expertise in resto, presumably increased speed in resto checks, presumably faster grading times when graders don't need to perform an out-of-skill-set service (resto checks) and they gain an income stream from the pressing. I would assume they would be able to combat burnout and grading fatigue by switching already experienced staff between teams.

 

Hopefully, though, this is the reason they haven't hired any new graders--they were marshaling some funds for a large purpose. Could have just put up a sales thread, though, and save a lot of panties from bunching.

 

Now, I'm off to read the rest of this monstrosity quickly before it gets locked.

[VintageComics]

While I understand how many people feel about Matt he does bring a serious repertoire of comic knowledge and specifically grading knowledge to the table.

 

I actually hadn't thought about that until someone mentioned it to me today.

 

 

[Logan510]

There's just something so indescribably cool to find a high grade book that has made it through 40 years,without any kind of manipulation.I think some of you have forgotten how awesome that is.I just had to say it.Back to your discussion.

 

 

That is pretty cool. Another cool thing is finding a raw book that's easily a 9.6 that you pay $125 for, pressing it, slabbing it and selling it for $1000. Then using some of that profit to buy complete runs of She-Hulk and Team America

 

What'd you do with the other $860?

 

 

[Designer Toast]

I can't. Can't. read 100+ pages of this, so I'll just chime in with my opinion. I'm sure it's duplicative of something else you've seen but here goes:

 

This actually makes sense in many ways, and doesn't really call into question their moral fiber. It boils down to whether you believe their stated grading method. Three graders independently get an unmarked book and provide their grades in a vacuum. If that doesn't change, then their impartiality still isn't in doubt. They're just building economies of scale and specialization. Classics does a resto check, freeing the graders up to grade (faster we can all hope). The graders still grade in a vacuum. Doesn't really change all that much.

 

From the collector perspective it certainly codifies the necessity of pressing to achieve high grades. That they bought the company (instead of some kind of strategic partnership) means they're acknowledging this, as well as keeping their preferred provider close to hand. They benefit from Classics expertise in resto, presumably increased speed in resto checks, presumably faster grading times when graders don't need to perform an out-of-skill-set service (resto checks) and they gain an income stream from the pressing. I would assume they would be able to combat burnout and grading fatigue by switching already experienced staff between teams.

 

Hopefully, though, this is the reason they haven't hired any new graders--they were marshaling some funds for a large purpose. Could have just put up a sales thread, though, and save a lot of panties from bunching.

 

Now, I'm off to read the rest of this monstrosity quickly before it gets locked.

 

Yep, that about it sums it up for me as well. I think too many people are getting their panties in a bunch over nothing.

[MrBedrock]

There's just something so indescribably cool to find a high grade book that has made it through 40 years,without any kind of manipulation.I think some of you have forgotten how awesome that is.I just had to say it.Back to your discussion.

There is something so indescribably cool about finding any high grade book.

Even the pressed ones.

[Boozad]

Say if somebody submits a book for a resto check and press to CI and the book gets a clean bill of health and is pressed and subbed for grading, then in the grading process the book is found to have a tear seal and ends up in a PLOD, what would be the fallout of that? The customer (I presume) will have been informed that the book is unrestored prior to grading so will not be happy with a PLOD. Will they then have to pay for resto removal and a regrade?

 

I'm asking because this has happened before (once that I know of, maybe more?) between the same two parties. I can see this scenario causing all sorts of problems.

[jbud73]

This thread will be 100 pages long by Sunday.

 

And so it should. I'm kinda waiting for the heavyweights to chime in. My little submit-20-books-a-year opinion doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. I'm interested to see what the real dealers think in how this is going to affect them, if at all.

 

If history is any indication, there will be a 100-200 page uproar that will change absolutely nothing, then it'll be business as usual. Those who have the most to gain or lose aren't typically the most candid in these kinds of threads.

 

I will enjoy the ride.

 

I was busy this week and read to about here (post 10).

 

What Andrew said.

 

+1

[jbud73]

I'm not entirely sure that 'To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published' is a great argument, considering that a book is also trimmed when it's published.

 

And I've never said that pressing was akin to selling your grandmother into prostitution. I've maintain that it's the most benign form of restoration...but remains in my mind restoration.

 

And as of 2000, it was classified as restoration, no matter how benign it might be seen as now.

 

Therefore an announcement would have been appropriate.

 

And the money doesn't matter to me...the deception does, as does the fact that books that were previously high grade by the grace of the gods are now high grade by the grace of the waffle machine.

 

Sorta takes the fun out of it for me.

 

Nick, you know I hate the, well nobody cares argument and have written many times about it as it leads to the lowest common denominator, do whatever you can to the books as long as you get that blue label.

 

And really that is what is happening, but something else is occurring as well. The census numbers are swelling, HG collectors are finishing their runs. HG collectors are also dumping their runs - I mean Doug Schmell sold his collection, and you know what, he wasn't 85, or in ill health, or being audited by the Fed. (though I'd love to be on that forensic audit team I can tell you for free). He made a utilitarian choice, that being he felt the market had crested, or that it wasn't going to continue to rise exponentially that holding made any more sense.

 

How long is Brulato going to hold out? Personally every day he waits he loses money IMO. Maybe he really loves the books, but that 7 figure number going down has got to get his attention because I'm pretty sure he loves money too.

 

The PRICES ARE COMING DOWN. Its not a crash, but over the entirety of the market the law of supply and demand, bolstered by more HG books over extending their potential is impacting the marketplace. You know I have bought more HG slabs this year than ever before and I think the decline will just cause that to occur to a more prolific extent.

 

When you think about it, the Boomers are not buying, there are more HG books that ever, the aforementioned BSDs are pretty much done with their 9.8 / 9.6 runs - the competition at the upper end is not as strong, certification prices are continuing to go up (while pressing prices are down- that's an interesting data point), the turn times are slower (so quick flips, if you crack and press are making it harder to catch sheep on the way down) - I'd really be surprised if the dealer cabal is not seeing their pressing profit margins become slimmer and slimmer.

 

It seems this move is the combination of a few factors. The public has had a pressing gestation period. Dale and the others have been screaming the 'no one care mantra for years now.' Maybe complacency has finally set in, or maybe the people in the know have less affinity for the HG slabbed books because they know what is possible inside a Blue label. The HG mystique is wearing off because a lot of those 9.6 SA books were 9.0s and 9.2s. The people not in the know are also impacted because while they don't have the knowledge, they see a barrage of 9.4 - 9.8 ASMs, the entire run up for auction and available everyday of the week 365 a year. So its no big deal, and no big deal = no bigger dollars.

 

So in the end one could argue that pressing has the potential to push things full circle and devalue the market faster as it increases the HG supply in a disproportionate way to the demand. Put another way, without pressing the HG numbers of 2012 may have taken until 2016 or longer to achieve were altered examples not a possibility inside a CGC blue label.

 

 

Hope everyone is well.

 

Best

Jason

[MCMiles]

 

I love the comics, the pressed ones just as much as the unpressed ones. I'll be thrilled when this impending dooms day arrives for the hobby and I'll be able to drive around on garbage day loading up collections into the truck.

 

 

[comicwiz]

Say if somebody submits a book for a resto check and press to CI and the book gets a clean bill of health and is pressed and subbed for grading, then in the grading process the book is found to have a tear seal and ends up in a PLOD, what would be the fallout of that? The customer (I presume) will have been informed that the book is unrestored prior to grading so will not be happy with a PLOD. Will they then have to pay for resto removal and a regrade?

 

I'm asking because this has happened before (once that I know of, maybe more?) between the same two parties. I can see this scenario causing all sorts of problems.

 

Sean mentioned an incident where he had sent in a book to Matt for rest removal to submit for SS, and when it eventually returned from submission it was in a two tone (restored) yellow/purple signature series holder. It happens. I guess each situation will play out differently on the customer complaint handing end of things.

 

I've heard situations where blue label books were sent in for a CPR or straight sub and were flagged for restoration, meaning CGC missed the resto the first time around.

 

I think what will be particularly interesting to see play out is the traditional overselling approach of their paper lab shooting too high with grades, clashing with CGC's historically conservative position on grading, and how customers will react when they were promised a certain grade. It's a slippery slope, because when there aren't any complaints (or kept low-key when they happen) it will appear as though the grade fix is in place to help their grading empire retain its sparkle and shine.

 

If instead the situation worsens (and by this I mean the heightening of work being missed or the temperatures of submitters start rising because the paper lab promised them a certain grade) then the question will become whether it was worth the additional costs/hassle and the negative trickle effect on CGC's reputation for the sake of getting in on the CPR action.

[Boozad]

Say if somebody submits a book for a resto check and press to CI and the book gets a clean bill of health and is pressed and subbed for grading, then in the grading process the book is found to have a tear seal and ends up in a PLOD, what would be the fallout of that? The customer (I presume) will have been informed that the book is unrestored prior to grading so will not be happy with a PLOD. Will they then have to pay for resto removal and a regrade?

 

I'm asking because this has happened before (once that I know of, maybe more?) between the same two parties. I can see this scenario causing all sorts of problems.

 

Sean mentioned an incident where he had sent in a book to Matt for rest removal to submit for SS, and when it eventually returned from submission it was in a two tone (restored) yellow/purple signature series holder. It happens. I guess each situation will play out differently on the customer complaint handing end of things.

 

I've heard situations where blue label books were sent in for a CPR or straight sub and were flagged for restoration, meaning CGC missed the resto the first time around.

 

I think what will be particularly interesting to see play out is the traditional overselling approach of their paper lab shooting too high with grades, clashing with CGC's historically conservative position on grading, and how customers will react when they were promised a certain grade. It's a slippery slope, because when there aren't any complaints (or kept low-key when they happen) it will appear as though the grade fix is in place to help their grading empire retain its sparkle and shine.

 

If instead the situation worsens (and by this I mean the heightening of work being missed or the temperatures of submitters start rising because the paper lab promised them a certain grade) then the question will become whether it was worth the additional costs/hassle and the negative trickle effect on CGC's reputation for the sake of getting in on the CPR action.

 

This is where I can see things having a chance of getting messy. If CI missed resto in the past it was down to them and them alone, but now with them being under the same roof as CGC then it will not pay for that sort of mistake to happen. Same in the event of CI predicting the wrong grade prior to pressing a book which then grades out lower than expected. It's no good having a 'pre-service' who promise you one thing when you end up with something different.

[comicwiz]

I agree. I think the general sentiment (from what I gathered in this thread) is that the "pre-screen" or "pro-screen" services will likely get scrapped, and the overselling from the pro-lab will likely be moderated by the amount of slip-ups that are happening. Personally, I see the first year being the time where the paper lab aspect of their business needs to be going full steam, so this will probably be the window of time to gauge how messy things will get.

[buuduh]

Wow I don't check the forums for one week and all hell breaks loose!

[comicwiz]

As a footnote to the whole CPR discussion, I was reminded of something that came from the sale of the Honus Wagner card in 2000. I don't remember where I read/heard this, but at the time, McNall decided to use a Future Value (FV) component to forecast the cards value at a specified date and time.

 

In comics, we call it "multiples" of guide, but I've also seen/heard McNall's approach on the T206 card used in the comic hobby going back some years on a few big books I was interested in.

 

A scheme that seems to have went the way of the dinosaur because there was too much uncertainty in the collectible markets, and someone paying forecast value 5 years into the future (which is what was being suggested with at the time of the sale of the T206) was taking on a monster bet.

 

Despite all the controversy that would later be associated with the card, it would also seem that McNall was pretty adept at seeing the way things would evolve with the valuation of the T206 card, because in 1991 he paid $451,000. In 2000, both he and Gretzky cashed out at $1.27 Million, and in 2007 that same card sold for $2.8 Million.

 

Looking at the current state of the hobby, these methods of guaranteeing a future return component at the exit just cannot work. The multiples aspect in the comic hobby is held hostage by the blue label. Future value forecasting is depreciated by the padding of the census, and waiting out 1 year forecast is risky enough in this economy, I can't imagine in the current market a 5 year window working for anything other than a killer high-grade GA with a Gerber 8 or higher rating.

 

As much as CPR is deprecated in this community, this hobby needed it to continue to maintain it's relevance as a collectible category worthy of investment. I'm not saying this to endorse the practice, but I'm merely pointing out how vital it's become to maintain this hobby's lifeline. At it's most basic level of understanding, CPR is still a forecasting scheme, but it's being calculated using predicative grading analysis and margins, within a narrow window of time, and whose only limitation (with this recent announcement) being CGC's turnaround times.