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Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated
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Started by bgraves-migration,

1,496 posts in this topic

Nexus

Nexus

Posted
Posted
Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

 

Finally a topic i know a little about. Enough of this comic stuff. Dude!! Cabrera won the Triple Crown. THE TRIPLE CROWN!! And he got his team to the World Series.

 

Jeff

 

100% it should have been Trout. Cabrera had the most impressive traditional batting stats, but by almost every other metric, Trout had the better year. You'd also have to totally disregard fielding and base running if you pick Cabrera. Two vital categories where Trout excelled and Cabrera...did not.

 

As far as getting to the World Series...Cabrera wasn't even the MVP on his own team in that regard. That would be Justin Verlander.

 

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Nexus

Nexus

Posted
Posted
Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

 

Finally a topic i know a little about. Enough of this comic stuff. Dude!! Cabrera won the Triple Crown. THE TRIPLE CROWN!! And he got his team to the World Series.

 

Jeff

 

Cabrera was the best offensive player. Trout was the most valuable player. Value in baseball is about wins. Wins is a factor of runs scored vs runs allowed.

 

There is a high correlation between run differential (or Runs scored vs runs allowed) and wins. As evidence of this, no team with a below .500 record had a positive run differential this year. That is a fancy way of saying they scored less runs than they allowed. Every team with a .500 or better record scored more runs than they allowed. This fact tells me that there are at least 2 components to determining value, that is runs created and runs saved. Defense does make a difference.

 

Offensive value should come from primarily 1 area...runs created. Runs created encompasses so many different factors of offense, from hitting, to effective slugging, to baserunning. It also includes factors which are not included in sabermetric stats, such as the ability to hit a sacrifice fly, or drive in a run from 3rd base on a ground ball to the 2nd baseman. These 2 things have value, even though they are not factored in to the advanced metrics. There are new stats such as extra base taken%, but these are all included in runs scored. An extra base taken or a stolen base which does not score, generally has zero value. In actual value(runs created), the only stats that really have an impact on the club's win total are runs scored and runs driven in.

 

So my formula to determine the most valuable player would be the player who creates the most runs on offense and the player who saves the most runs on defense. Runs created + runs saved = MVP. Runs saved is extremely hard to judge, so going with metrics of plus or minus runs saved above average from Fan Graphs and the Fielding Bible.

 

Cabrera - 139 RBI + 109 runs - 44 HRs +(-8 PMRS) = 196

Trout - 83 RBI + 129 runs - 30 HRs + (21 PMRS) = 203

 

When you include defense, it is clear that Trout is in fact more valuable to his team than Cabrera. I was somewhat surprised by this outcome, but I feel it is a very fair way to evaluate who is the Most Valuable.

 

 

Nice!

 

My one quibble being that RBI is a correlative stat and too much weight is given to an individual player for driving in runs. Your teammates need to get on base in front of you, or there will be no runs to drive in. Trout hit leadoff; Cabrera hit third AND had Prince Fielder hitting behind him. Cabrera simply had more opportunities to drive in runs. He shouldn't be given more credit for that, just as Trout shouldn't be penalized.

 

Also, the Tigers played in the softest division in MLB. The Angels played in the toughest. That's a factor, too. Trout faced better pitching than Cabrera AND his team finished with the better record. (The latter only being relevant for those who want to credit a team's overall success to an individual player, i.e. "Cabrera got his team to the WS".)

 

 

 

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Nexus

Nexus

Posted
Posted
Defense is a big deal, ill agree there. But the Angels finished third this year if im not mistaken. Take Trout out and where do the Angels finish?? Im thinking still third. Take Cabrera away from the Tigers and where do they finish?? Not first and not in the Playoffs.

 

Not very meaningful. But if you want to play "what ifs"...

 

Take Verlander away from the Tigers, and where do they finish?

 

Put the Angels and Tigers in the same division...which team finishes ahead?

 

 

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MasterChief

MasterChief

Posted
Posted
I'm not entirely sure that 'To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published' is a great argument, considering that a book is also trimmed when it's published. :/

 

And I've never said that pressing was akin to selling your grandmother into prostitution. I've maintain that it's the most benign form of restoration...but remains in my mind restoration.

 

And as of 2000, it was classified as restoration, no matter how benign it might be seen as now.

 

Therefore an announcement would have been appropriate.

 

And the money doesn't matter to me...the deception does, as does the fact that books that were previously high grade by the grace of the gods are now high grade by the grace of the waffle machine.

 

Sorta takes the fun out of it for me.

 

:hi: Nick, you know I hate the, well nobody cares argument and have written many times about it as it leads to the lowest common denominator, do whatever you can to the books as long as you get that blue label.

 

And really that is what is happening, but something else is occurring as well. The census numbers are swelling, HG collectors are finishing their runs. HG collectors are also dumping their runs - I mean Doug Schmell sold his collection, and you know what, he wasn't 85, or in ill health, or being audited by the Fed. (though I'd love to be on that forensic audit team I can tell you for free). He made a utilitarian choice, that being he felt the market had crested, or that it wasn't going to continue to rise exponentially that holding made any more sense.

 

How long is Brulato going to hold out? Personally every day he waits he loses money IMO. Maybe he really loves the books, but that 7 figure number going down has got to get his attention because I'm pretty sure he loves money too.

 

The PRICES ARE COMING DOWN. Its not a crash, but over the entirety of the market the law of supply and demand, bolstered by more HG books over extending their potential is impacting the marketplace. You know I have bought more HG slabs this year than ever before and I think the decline will just cause that to occur to a more prolific extent.

 

When you think about it, the Boomers are not buying, there are more HG books that ever, the aforementioned BSDs are pretty much done with their 9.8 / 9.6 runs - the competition at the upper end is not as strong, certification prices are continuing to go up (while pressing prices are down- that's an interesting data point), the turn times are slower (so quick flips, if you crack and press are making it harder to catch sheep on the way down) - I'd really be surprised if the dealer cabal is not seeing their pressing profit margins become slimmer and slimmer.

 

It seems this move is the combination of a few factors. The public has had a pressing gestation period. Dale and the others have been screaming the 'no one care mantra for years now.' Maybe complacency has finally set in, or maybe the people in the know have less affinity for the HG slabbed books because they know what is possible inside a Blue label. The HG mystique is wearing off because a lot of those 9.6 SA books were 9.0s and 9.2s. The people not in the know are also impacted because while they don't have the knowledge, they see a barrage of 9.4 - 9.8 ASMs, the entire run up for auction and available everyday of the week 365 a year. So its no big deal, and no big deal = no bigger dollars.

 

So in the end one could argue that pressing has the potential to push things full circle and devalue the market faster as it increases the HG supply in a disproportionate way to the demand. Put another way, without pressing the HG numbers of 2012 may have taken until 2016 or longer to achieve were altered examples not a possibility inside a CGC blue label.

 

2c

 

Hope everyone is well.

 

Best

Jason

 

Jbud, that is a well thought out, intelligent response. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

 

I was working on a post regarding book devaluation as a result of manipulation and how supply and demand affects the value of collectibles

(i.e., dilution of the individual high-grade comic book investment). But there's no need for that now. I'll just post an image to support your perceptive prose.

 

 

CGC-POST-CMR-SD.jpg

 

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arexcrooke

arexcrooke

Posted
Posted
That is being proactive. Which is what I believe people need to do in life.

 

You mean like...disclosing? :baiting:

Yep. But we cant expect that to happen from CGC. As has been discussed here before it gets into the realm of guesswork on CGC's part and the hobby and CGC can not be engaging in guess work.

But disclosing, by the owner, should be a given.

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TupennyConan

TupennyConan

Posted
Posted

Some decent e-art here. I'm going to set it all to color & test the result.

 

I'm not entirely sure that 'To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published' is a great argument, considering that a book is also trimmed when it's published. :/

 

And I've never said that pressing was akin to selling your grandmother into prostitution. I've maintain that it's the most benign form of restoration...but remains in my mind restoration.

 

And as of 2000, it was classified as restoration, no matter how benign it might be seen as now.

 

Therefore an announcement would have been appropriate.

 

And the money doesn't matter to me...the deception does, as does the fact that books that were previously high grade by the grace of the gods are now high grade by the grace of the waffle machine.

 

Sorta takes the fun out of it for me.

 

:hi: Nick, you know I hate the, well nobody cares argument and have written many times about it as it leads to the lowest common denominator, do whatever you can to the books as long as you get that blue label.

 

And really that is what is happening, but something else is occurring as well. The census numbers are swelling, HG collectors are finishing their runs. HG collectors are also dumping their runs - I mean Doug Schmell sold his collection, and you know what, he wasn't 85, or in ill health, or being audited by the Fed. (though I'd love to be on that forensic audit team I can tell you for free). He made a utilitarian choice, that being he felt the market had crested, or that it wasn't going to continue to rise exponentially that holding made any more sense.

 

How long is Brulato going to hold out? Personally every day he waits he loses money IMO. Maybe he really loves the books, but that 7 figure number going down has got to get his attention because I'm pretty sure he loves money too.

 

The PRICES ARE COMING DOWN. Its not a crash, but over the entirety of the market the law of supply and demand, bolstered by more HG books over extending their potential is impacting the marketplace. You know I have bought more HG slabs this year than ever before and I think the decline will just cause that to occur to a more prolific extent.

 

When you think about it, the Boomers are not buying, there are more HG books that ever, the aforementioned BSDs are pretty much done with their 9.8 / 9.6 runs - the competition at the upper end is not as strong, certification prices are continuing to go up (while pressing prices are down- that's an interesting data point), the turn times are slower (so quick flips, if you crack and press are making it harder to catch sheep on the way down) - I'd really be surprised if the dealer cabal is not seeing their pressing profit margins become slimmer and slimmer.

 

It seems this move is the combination of a few factors. The public has had a pressing gestation period. Dale and the others have been screaming the 'no one care mantra for years now.' Maybe complacency has finally set in, or maybe the people in the know have less affinity for the HG slabbed books because they know what is possible inside a Blue label. The HG mystique is wearing off because a lot of those 9.6 SA books were 9.0s and 9.2s. The people not in the know are also impacted because while they don't have the knowledge, they see a barrage of 9.4 - 9.8 ASMs, the entire run up for auction and available everyday of the week 365 a year. So its no big deal, and no big deal = no bigger dollars.

 

So in the end one could argue that pressing has the potential to push things full circle and devalue the market faster as it increases the HG supply in a disproportionate way to the demand. Put another way, without pressing the HG numbers of 2012 may have taken until 2016 or longer to achieve were altered examples not a possibility inside a CGC blue label.

 

2c

 

Hope everyone is well.

 

Best

Jason

 

Jbud, that is a well thought out, intelligent response. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

 

I was working on a post regarding book devaluation as a result of manipulation and how supply and demand affects the value of collectibles

(i.e., dilution of the individual high-grade comic book investment). But there's no need for that now. I'll just post an image to support your perceptive prose.

 

 

CGC-POST-CMR-SD.jpg

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Davenport

Davenport

Posted
Posted

100% agree, all is good in the comic book world. The biggest question in my mind is what "new" process are people doing to books to help push the grade even higher while maintaining the blue status. So far we know.

1. Pressing

2. Dry cleaning

3. Micro trimming (when done properly)

4. Disassembly and reassembly.

5. Staple replacement (when done properly with vintage staples)

6. Reattachment with tape

7. Paper-tucking staple detachments

8. Rearranging double-covers

Added two to your list. (thumbs u

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all ! :cloud9:

 

 

 

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Comicdey

Comicdey

Posted
Posted

100% agree, all is good in the comic book world. The biggest question in my mind is what "new" process are people doing to books to help push the grade even higher while maintaining the blue status. So far we know.

1. Pressing

2. Dry cleaning

3. Micro trimming (when done properly)

4. Disassembly and reassembly.

5. Staple replacement (when done properly with vintage staples)

6. Reattachment with tape

7. Paper-tucking staple detachments

8. Rearranging double-covers

Added two to your list. (thumbs u

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all ! :cloud9:

 

 

Tucking can lead to surprises

 

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HOTFLIPS

HOTFLIPS

Posted
Posted
Defense is a big deal, ill agree there. But the Angels finished third this year if im not mistaken. Take Trout out and where do the Angels finish?? Im thinking still third. Take Cabrera away from the Tigers and where do they finish?? Not first and not in the Playoffs.

 

Not very meaningful. But if you want to play "what ifs"...

 

Take Verlander away from the Tigers, and where do they finish?

 

Put the Angels and Tigers in the same division...which team finishes ahead?

 

 

Fine ill play that game.

 

Take Jarod Weaver out of the angels, where do they finish?? Still not in the playoffs AND not in THIRD place but even closer to the bottom.

 

Fact is they dont play in the same division so that point is irrelevant.

 

Nice try though. There is a new thread about CCG so ill be reading that for now on.

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