CGC Acquires Classics Inc - Response to your Questions

[Underground44]

Don't speak ill of Joey ... he's made me more money than I can count with his pressing services and is a super good dude. He's also taken the high road in response to this garbage acquisition of Classics Inc. by CGC when he's suffering substantial damage as a result of CGC's myopic decision to try and monopolize the fields of restoration and grading.

 

WTF are you Joey's lawyer now?

 

Joey is very well respected and I have a feeling that a bunch of people who have used Joey over and over will continue to use Joey's services.

 

I'm not Joey's attorney, but to assume that people will not opt for the pressing service that is owned by the grading service is ridiculous. Obviously, some of his customers are going to start sending their books to Classics. That is a shameful way to increase one's business. Please keep your personal animus towards me from clouding your judgment.

Why would some of Joey's customers switch to CGC's new service? Joey subs customers books to CGC. Plus, I am guessing his prices are more reasonable?

Much more so.

 

Is price everything?

[pickycollector]

Those that dislike pressing will avoid the pressed books, but will still pile multiple copies of pressed books into their collections while playing "see no evil". You are asking CGC to institute a policy that doesn't deliver transparency... just helps you deceive yourselves about what you are actually buying while giving a completely false veil of "sancioned information". This creates chaos, not stability.

I can tell you I do not "pile" pressed books in my collection.

 

As a matter of fact, I am buying less and less CGC books unless they are old labels or come from people whom I know either do not press or at least disclose pressing. If not publicly disclosed and I am really interested by the book, I will ask privately. There is still a risk of getting a pressed book but it is far lesser.

[Logan510]

Don't speak ill of Joey ... he's made me more money than I can count with his pressing services and is a super good dude. He's also taken the high road in response to this garbage acquisition of Classics Inc. by CGC when he's suffering substantial damage as a result of CGC's myopic decision to try and monopolize the fields of restoration and grading.

 

WTF are you Joey's lawyer now?

 

Joey is very well respected and I have a feeling that a bunch of people who have used Joey over and over will continue to use Joey's services.

 

I'm not Joey's attorney, but to assume that people will not opt for the pressing service that is owned by the grading service is ridiculous. Obviously, some of his customers are going to start sending their books to Classics. That is a shameful way to increase one's business. Please keep your personal animus towards me from clouding your judgment.

Why would some of Joey's customers switch to CGC's new service? Joey subs customers books to CGC. Plus, I am guessing his prices are more reasonable?

Much more so.

 

Is price everything?

 

Have you ever used CFP's service?

[Underground44]

Don't speak ill of Joey ... he's made me more money than I can count with his pressing services and is a super good dude. He's also taken the high road in response to this garbage acquisition of Classics Inc. by CGC when he's suffering substantial damage as a result of CGC's myopic decision to try and monopolize the fields of restoration and grading.

 

WTF are you Joey's lawyer now?

 

Joey is very well respected and I have a feeling that a bunch of people who have used Joey over and over will continue to use Joey's services.

 

I'm not Joey's attorney, but to assume that people will not opt for the pressing service that is owned by the grading service is ridiculous. Obviously, some of his customers are going to start sending their books to Classics. That is a shameful way to increase one's business. Please keep your personal animus towards me from clouding your judgment.

Why would some of Joey's customers switch to CGC's new service? Joey subs customers books to CGC. Plus, I am guessing his prices are more reasonable?

Much more so.

 

Is price everything?

 

Have you ever used CFP's service?

 

I certainly have. In fact I have 27 books in the "system" as we speak. I've also used other pressers.

[Prince Namor]

Those that dislike pressing will avoid the pressed books, but will still pile multiple copies of pressed books into their collections while playing "see no evil". You are asking CGC to institute a policy that doesn't deliver transparency... just helps you deceive yourselves about what you are actually buying while giving a completely false veil of "sancioned information". This creates chaos, not stability.

I can tell you I do not "pile" pressed books in my collection.

 

As a matter of fact, I am buying less and less CGC books unless they are old labels or come from people whom I know either do not press or at least disclose pressing. If not publicly disclosed, I will ask privately. There is still a risk of getting a pressed book but it is far lesser.

 

I'm sure all of us here have books in our collection unknowingly pressed by Encyclopedia Britannica.

[MCMiles]

Wow. The strawman stuff does get thick.

 

Someone should open a pressing service and just send every book that comes in right back, without doing anything. No one can tell if a book has been pressed, the client can't tell, and CGC can't tell. Pressing is absolutely unidentifiable, so who could complain?

 

Turn around times could be spectacular.

 

 

You're just wishing it was easily identifiable. The truth is that it isn't the majority of the time.

 

Flawless loophole for CGC, coincidence, epiphany or conspiracy? Maybe, but that's the reality of the situation.

 

If you think that a grader should be guessing or giving two different sets of treatment to two different sets of books and then charging for their opinion then what does that achieve?

 

You're obviously at the opposite end of the spectrum from where others are but wanting something to be easily detectable doesn't make it so.

 

I'm not wishing anything, just think it's goofy, the pretense required.

 

Matt or Joey see something when they're evaluating a book for pressing treatment. Something professional graders can't see. Or are not allowed to see.

 

Whichever. It's goofy.

 

Pressing doesn't repair any actual permanent or physical damage. Only re-flattens the paper.

 

But you're right about 'that's the reality of the situation'. And so it goes. But it's still one of the most bizarre things to read about. Check common sense and logic at the door for this group-mind freakshow.

 

It doesn't take much common sense understand the something they see is a bend , dent or impression in the paper. If those things aren't there, the professional graders see flat paper or nothing. It's not that they aren't allowed to see it. It simply isn't there. Common sense tells us that doesn't mean the book has been pressed. It doesn't tell us the book has been worked on by a "presser". It only tells the paper is flat. Common sense tells us that CGC can't go assuming a book has been pressed, and therefore labeling it as such because the paper is flat.

 

Sure there are probably many books where someone experienced with pressing could make a logical assumption that the book has been pressed, but that still isn't enough for a book to be labeled as such, and in the large majority of those cases there is absolutely no way to tell those characteristics are there because the book underwent work from a pressing service or from the way the book was stored.

 

Further more, this would be even harder to detect in ultra high grade where the defects are minor and fewer. Unless you want to conclude that all ultra high grade books have been pressed...and isn't that where the big rub is for a lot of you guys? The money? Which is much more significant in the ultra high grades.

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

I disagree pressing can't be detected.

 

In fact, I will go one further and say there are defects that CGC immediately would be able to identify as being produced by pressing, damage produced by their slab, or a combination of both.

 

It's too easy to dismiss this, but after seeing millions of books, I would say that identification is possible, but they chose not to treat it as a problem and that's why we're stuck debating this point for as long as we have.

 

Outside of identification by the naked eye, there are also detection possibilities associated to the release coatings on the paper used in the pressing process.

 

There is no way the chemicals in the release profile of these coatings would ever be used in the manufacturing/production of the comic, it's storage, or conservation products (bags/boards), so once residue is traced back to the front/rear, and interior pages where release papers would be used, there would be no explanation or reason to conclude other than pressing producing the condition where these chemicals would be present.

 

If you're going to argue that the comics could have been stored next to release papers, then I would say make sure they aren't.

 

Matter of time and technology folks - all just a matter of time.

[Chespirito]

What I got from this thread:

 

Pressed without disclosure to buyer=Bad

Pressing to sell in higher grade=Good

Putting "pressed" on the label=Bad

Not putting "pressed" on the label=Dishonest

Pressing is semi-detectable

[comicwiz]

That is indeed the dilemma for CGC. Only way to solve this and keeps everybody happy seems to be disclosing the information not in the label but rather along with the grader's notes.

 

CGC cannot put pressing information anywhere at anytime. It is disaster... not for CGC profits, not for "transparency"... it is a disaster for the hobby itself, and a disaster even for the very collectors that are intent on shooting themselves in the foot with this idea.

 

If CGC identifies pressing (in notes or anywhere else) it is doing something that can only be identified with books that came through a specific channel (themselves), and cannot perform the same task on an even greater number of books out there that have not.

 

The whole point of going through a third-party grader... and let me say it again... the whole point of going through a third-party grader... is to achieve certainty. CGC can hold up a book and declare that "this book has been restored" and "this book has not been restored". That creates certainty, and that creates confidence in the hobby and the market.

 

But with "disclosed pressing" you have a situation in which CGC can hold up a book and say "this book has been pressed". But they can never ever hold up a book and say that "this book has not been pressed". That means that every single book that ever doesn't have grader's notes identifying it as pressed is absolutely meaningless. Those that dislike pressing will avoid the pressed books, but will still pile multiple copies of pressed books into their collections while playing "see no evil". You are asking CGC to institute a policy that doesn't deliver transparency... just helps you deceive yourselves about what you are actually buying while giving a completely false veil of "sancioned information". This creates chaos, not stability.

 

I see numerous times the phrase "CGC chooses not to consider pressing restoration". By logical consequence, one must then infer those saying that believe restoration can be consistently detected. What I don't understand is... if that's the case, why don't one of you do it? There are many on these boards with more years and experience than even the CGC graders. Why not teach yourselves pressing indentification, set up such a service, and make yourselves millionaires? CGC might even hire you or make you a partner... because labeling then becomes viable if a book can safely be declared un-pressed as easily as an in-house book can be declared to be pressed.

 

****************

 

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with CGC. I've only sent a handful of books to be slabbed over a decade. I've only had three books professionally pressed, and don't care about pressing one way or the other. I care about common sense and logical solutions to emotional issues. I have no financial issue in this debate one way or the other. I am not associated with the Ohio Lottery, no am an Ohio Lottery affiliate, or am associated with any linked agency, advertising, or partnership of said institution. Some of my opinions may not be valid in certain states... check with your local government before accepting or declining said opinions. All opinions subject to change without notice.

 

 

Following the line of your argument, they should have shut their doors then when Ewert's trimmed comics past through CGC's restoration detection.

[MCMiles]

I disagree pressing can't be detected.

 

In fact, I will go one further and say there are defects that CGC immediately would be able to identify as being produced by pressing, damage produced by their slab, or a combination of both.

 

It's too easy to dismiss this, but after seeing millions of books, I would say that identification is possible, but they chose not to treat it as a problem and that's why we're stuck debating this point for as long as we have.

 

Outside of identification by the naked eye, there are also detection possibilities associated to the release coatings on the paper used in the pressing process.

 

There is no way the chemicals in the release profile of these coatings would ever be used in the manufacturing/production of the comic, it's storage, or conservation products (bags/boards), so once residue is traced back to the front/rear, and interior pages where release papers would be used, there would be no explanation or reason to conclude other than pressing producing the condition where these chemicals would be present.

 

If you're going to argue that the comics could have been stored next to release papers, then I would say make sure they aren't.

 

Matter of time and technology folks - all just a matter of time.

 

There are many books that could be identified as pressed. The lower grade, the greater the possibility. Some of those even immediately, but for most - NOT. Again..especially not in higher grade.

 

As far as detecting possibilities associated to the coatings on release paper, you are only speculating that there is some sort of transference there. Even if it were possible through "technology"...good luck financing that. It would only drive up costs and turn around times.

 

I would never argue that the comics could have been stored next to release paper. That's a Roy argument. (a stretch)

 

I'm sure you are right about one thing. They do choose to ignore it more so because it's good for business. Not enough people are against pressing. Many either benefit monetarily (OMG, I said it, expect the anti -pressing brigade to quote that several times), many just don't care and like the benefit of upgrade the books get, and it's a model that allows CGC to grade the same books more than once, which is obviously good for business.

 

It's a catch in the whole process that works for CGC. Pressing can not be detected consistently or accurately. Many folks choose to embrace the practice. It turns out that's good for the bottom line at CGC.

 

[Theagenes]

I disagree pressing can't be detected.

 

In fact, I will go one further and say there are defects that CGC immediately would be able to identify as being produced by pressing, damage produced by their slab, or a combination of both.

 

It's too easy to dismiss this, but after seeing millions of books, I would say that identification is possible, but they chose not to treat it as a problem and that's why we're stuck debating this point for as long as we have.

 

Outside of identification by the naked eye, there are also detection possibilities associated to the release coatings on the paper used in the pressing process.

 

There is no way the chemicals in the release profile of these coatings would ever be used in the manufacturing/production of the comic, it's storage, or conservation products (bags/boards), so once residue is traced back to the front/rear, and interior pages where release papers would be used, there would be no explanation or reason to conclude other than pressing producing the condition where these chemicals would be present.

 

If you're going to argue that the comics could have been stored next to release papers, then I would say make sure they aren't.

 

Matter of time and technology folks - all just a matter of time.

 

 

 

As far as detecting possibilities associated to the coatings on release paper, you are only speculating that there is some sort of transference there. Even if it were possible through "technology"...good luck financing that. It would only drive up costs and turn around times.

 

 

Let me throw this out there just for discussion. I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now. To Mike's point on cost, it retails for around $40-50,000. It would depend on what the elemental constituency of the release paper and whether on not any of it ends up on the comic after pressing. I would need to test it. It occurs to be that it might have other uses for detecting certain types of resto in which other substances are added to the book like aqueous cleaning, tape removal, etc.

 

I'm not sure I want to go into any more detail as Bookery's suggestion of a pressing detection service is an interesting one.

[drbanner]

Check your CarFax! Check your ComicFax! Do I need to disclose that my car has been in an accident and the bumper and fender were fixed and re-painted when I sell it?

 

CI/CGC will know exactly what was done to a book that comes through the ringer in their shop with absolutely no need for guessing or "detecting" anything. A buyer deserves to know if a book has been pressed, staples re-tucked, dry-cleaned, etc.,. Therefore, CGC should tell them.

 

But, if CGC includes this information in graders notes it will a) affect the selling price of the book, b) affect Matt's business since sellers would be inclined to use 3rd-party pressing services (costing CI/CGC $) that won't have such associated notes, and c) discourage the 2x/3x/4x/5x submittals of pressed and re-pressed books as the new owner will already know the book has "reached it's potential" (costing CGC $).

 

Frankly, "Is pressing detectable?", "Is pressing restoration?", "Should CGC disclose the work they do on a book?" are all red herrings in this discussion. The bottom line here is that CGC folding CI into their business is a conflict of interest and is giving the big middle finger to the collector in this hobby while padding their bottom line and the bottom line of every other entity that profits from the collector's dollar.

[MCMiles]

I don't disagree.

[mintcollector]

Check your CarFax! Check your ComicFax! Do I need to disclose that my car has been in an accident and the bumper and fender were fixed and re-painted when I sell it?

 

CI/CGC will know exactly what was done to a book that comes through the ringer in their shop with absolutely no need for guessing or "detecting" anything. A buyer deserves to know if a book has been pressed, staples re-tucked, dry-cleaned, etc.,. Therefore, CGC should tell them.

 

But, if CGC includes this information in graders notes it will a) affect the selling price of the book, b) affect Matt's business since sellers would be inclined to use 3rd-party pressing services (costing CI/CGC $) that won't have such associated notes, and c) discourage the 2x/3x/4x/5x submittals of pressed and re-pressed books as the new owner will already know the book has "reached it's potential" (costing CGC $).

 

Frankly, "Is pressing detectable?", "Is pressing restoration?", "Should CGC disclose the work they do on a book?" are all red herrings in this discussion. The bottom line here is that CGC folding CI into their business is a conflict of interest and is giving the big middle finger to the collector in this hobby while padding their bottom line and the bottom line of every other entity that profits from the collector's dollar.

 

Can I just ask everyone to consider how this would ultimately effect the current collector? Think about all of us who bought books (not knowing if they were pressed or not) and then they suddenly put this in the grader's report. Current collectors would LOSE BIG; should the market 'shy' away from pressed books.

 

The only comparison I could even think of using is when coin grading was changed slightly making a GEM mint coin; a(n) MS-63. A lot of money was lost. I would have to get the FULL facts on what happened during this time period, as it was back in the 1980's (I believe?) and I was not into coin collecting at that time (I am only thrity five and born in 1976). That being said, it is never good to hurt your core base who has a vested interest of these items already graded. Just an opinion. I am sure others may agree.

 

Would you sacrifice the value of your collection to adopt this ideology? Interesting question, isn't it? Dealers would also lose, as would 'speculators' and investors. This would cause a massive 'ripple' effect and could actually derail the hobby as a whole. Unfortunately, unlike the 1990's, I don't see it coming back; should this occur.

 

In conclusion this is based on two independent variables:

 

Number one: The core collecting public views 'pressing' as being 'bad.'

 

Number two: They (i.e. CGC) actually include this information on the grading report to begin with.

 

This is a very dangerous 'what if' scenario to speculate on.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

[GACollectibles]

I don't disagree.

 

Ever?

[MCMiles]

I don't disagree.

 

Ever?

 

Often

 

 

[Davenport]

To see just how goofy it is, go at it backward. How many things have to happen for the Game to work?

 

1st thing is "grade assessment" has to be divorced from old-school "state of preservation" analysis. The only consideration allowed is a single point-in-time visual assessment.

 

2nd, professional graders must completely ignore the physical properties of the paper they're assessing. That paper is fibrous, malleable, and undulates between states cannot be considered or applied to assessment conclusions. What is there is there, until another point-in-time exam is purchased.

 

3rd, professional comic book conservators and comic book paper mechanics must separate themselves from the broader world of paper artifacts, where documentation of all treatments is required for both their science and their governing ethics. Their profession is deemed "unique", since it's comics, and comprised of trade secrets and no paper trail.

 

4th, a comic book that miraculously survived as-published for 60 years and a 60 year old comic recently refurbished using modern techniques must be indistinguishable, across desire, demand, value, or any other quantifier. Collectors have to actively participate in a pretense that, for all marketing purposes, they are exactly the same.

 

5th, all non-additive professional treatments must receive the same certification labeling as regular books, even if the treatment is known, in support of the overall pretense.

 

Line 'em all up and it works beautifully. Collectors swoon, cash flows. But it's still a bizarre as hell System.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Check your CarFax! Check your ComicFax! Do I need to disclose that my car has been in an accident and the bumper and fender were fixed and re-painted when I sell it?

 

CI/CGC will know exactly what was done to a book that comes through the ringer in their shop with absolutely no need for guessing or "detecting" anything. A buyer deserves to know if a book has been pressed, staples re-tucked, dry-cleaned, etc.,. Therefore, CGC should tell them.

 

But, if CGC includes this information in graders notes it will a) affect the selling price of the book, b) affect Matt's business since sellers would be inclined to use 3rd-party pressing services (costing CI/CGC $) that won't have such associated notes, and c) discourage the 2x/3x/4x/5x submittals of pressed and re-pressed books as the new owner will already know the book has "reached it's potential" (costing CGC $).

 

Frankly, "Is pressing detectable?", "Is pressing restoration?", "Should CGC disclose the work they do on a book?" are all red herrings in this discussion. The bottom line here is that CGC folding CI into their business is a conflict of interest and is giving the big middle finger to the collector in this hobby while padding their bottom line and the bottom line of every other entity that profits from the collector's dollar.

 

Can I just ask everyone to consider how this would ultimately effect the current collector? Think about all of us who bought books (not knowing if they were pressed or not) and then they suddenly put this in the grader's report. Current collectors would LOSE BIG; should the market 'shy' away from pressed books.

 

The only comparison I could even think of using is when coin grading was changed slightly making a GEM mint coin; a(n) MS-63. A lot of money was lost. I would have to get the FULL facts on what happened during this time period, as it was back in the 1980's (I believe?) and I was not into coin collecting at that time (I am only thrity five and born in 1976). That being said, it is never good to hurt your core base who has a vested interest of these items already graded. Just an opinion. I am sure others may agree.

 

Would you sacrifice the value of your collection to adopt this ideology? Interesting question, isn't it? Dealers would also lose, as would 'speculators' and investors. This would cause a massive 'ripple' effect and could actually derail the hobby as a whole. Unfortunately, unlike the 1990's, I don't see it coming back; should this occur.

 

In conclusion this is based on two independent variables:

 

Number one: The core collecting public views 'pressing' as being 'bad.'

 

Number two: They (i.e. CGC) actually include this information on the grading report to begin with.

 

This is a very dangerous 'what if' scenario to speculate on.

 

Respectfully,

 

'mint'

I put in bold the part that seperates a collector from flipper/investor/dealer. Collectors are not concerned with selling, hence "collector".

[TupennyConan]

I have a device in my office right now that might be able to detect the chemicals from the release paper. This technology might exist now.

 

Isn't this the set-up for every superhero or villian's origin?

 

[sterlingcomics]

We as outsiders will never truly know what all goes on behind the doors of CGC and like the sausage factory, maybe that's a good thing. After all, ignorance is bliss.

 

Given the self-induced drama that tends to happen here, yes that's a good thing. And bad.