Was World War 2 the best thing for Golden Age Comics?

[Sqeggs]

Anyone recall if Lee, Kirby, Simon, Goodman, et al. ever offered an opinion on the effects of the war on the business?

[nearmint]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

[Sqeggs]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

I forget which issue it is, but there is a Batman (admittedly, not Detective) cover that shows him firing a machine gun. It doesn't show Japanese or German soldiers, but I assume he's not mowing down burglars.

[Scrooge]

But that's a War Bond (7th?) issue.

[walclark]

 

[rjpb]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

 

Interestingly MLJ also moved away from war covers by 1944, even in the books not taken over by "teen" characters, while Timely, Nedor and Harvey covers were dominated by the war until the very end. DC early on put emphasis on on non-war stories in most of their books, and also put more effort into a variety of super-villains as the Golden Age went on. This variety may have contributed to many of the titles lasting a few years longer than most of the GA costumed hero output.

[walclark]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

 

Interestingly MLJ also moved away from war covers by 1944, even in the books not taken over by "teen" characters, while Timely, Nedor and Harvey covers were dominated by the war until the very end. DC early on put emphasis on on non-war stories in most of their books, and also put more effort into a variety of super-villains as the Golden Age went on. This variety may have contributed to many of the titles lasting a few years longer than most of the GA costumed hero output.

 

I think I commented in the Hitler cover thread about the relative lack of Hitler covers throughout the DC line-up. All Star #24, Batman #18, Boy Commandos #2, More Fun #75, Superman #17, and World's Finest #9 were the only DC covers that depicted Hitler. Compared to the number of cover appearances that were published by the other companies, it seems to be a relatively meager output.

 

Between issue #25 and #57, Big Shot Comics had as many Hitler covers as the entire DC line. Catman had four appearances in its short run. Bomber Comics only ran four issues, but two of the four had Hitler covers.

[nearmint]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

I forget which issue it is, but there is a Batman (admittedly, not Detective) cover that shows him firing a machine gun. It doesn't show Japanese or German soldiers, but I assume he's not mowing down burglars.

 

Batman has a few war covers, 12, 15, 17, 18, 30.

[MrBedrock]

Superman was the most important thing to happen to comics. If World War II had not happened comics would still have survived. The superhero genre would have just latched onto whatever other historical events that would have occurred. Comics have always had a way of reflected what was going on in the world in general, be it wars, red scares, technological advances, or good or bad economic times. In hindsight, with the history we have had, World War II was the most interesting period for collectors of golden age comics. But given a different history we would have a different perspective and a different set of books as grails.

[goldust40]

Superman was the most important thing to happen to comics. If World War II had not happened comics would still have survived. The superhero genre would have just latched onto whatever other historical events that would have occurred. Comics have always had a way of reflected what was going on in the world in general, be it wars, red scares, technological advances, or good or bad economic times. In hindsight, with the history we have had, World War II was the most interesting period for collectors of golden age comics. But given a different history we would have a different perspective and a different set of books as grails.

 

Without WW2 such grails (due to the paper drives, rationing, etc.) would not have become nearly as scarce - in terms of elevating GA books in the hobby to the level they have achieved not just because of their importance but because of their scarcity, the war was crucial.

[BB-Gun]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

I forget which issue it is, but there is a Batman (admittedly, not Detective) cover that shows him firing a machine gun. It doesn't show Japanese or German soldiers, but I assume he's not mowing down burglars.

 

Batman has a few war covers, 12, 15, 17, 18, 30.

 

Here are four of them from Bat-Hound's collection. Excuse the stolen picture please.

[PovertyRow]

WW2 gave a boost to superhero comics with ready made villains in the Nazis and the Japanese, and quite clearly after the war the genre began to lose dominance. Still the phenomenal success of Superman and the rise of superhero comics was initially independent of the war in Europe, it wasn't until 1940 that superheroes started battling Nazi's and DC didn't really acknowledge the war until the U.S. was involved directly.

 

It's difficult to say if the superhero genre would have sustained as long as did without World War 2, as the actual time period of U.S. involvement is actually quite short, roughly 3 &1/2 years. Perhaps the novelty of costumed heroes with various powers would have lasted just as long without the war.

 

It is interesting that the Korean conflict just a few years later, while it elevated Communists, in particular the Chinese, to the level of villainy previously enjoyed by the Japanazis, caused an explosion in straight war comics, but did not lead to a superhero revival, and was barely acknowledged in the few remaining superhero books still being published. Atlas did seem to focus on Soviet villains during it's short lived superhero revival, but absent a hot war, I guess it wasn't enough to generate strong sales.

 

I'd say it's a safe bet, that absent WW2, there is a good chance Captain America may never have been created, though the character's longevity has shown that such a conflict isn't needed to maintain interest in him.

 

Nicely said. Just to add a smidge to the Atlas take, the Kirby Big Monster, often the main story in the post-code pre-hero books, would have back stories with a communist bent. Usually not stated but just implied what country was involved.

 

Lots of Communist villains in the early SA Marvel hero books too (TOS, TTA, Hulk to name a few).

 

By gum your right. My earlier daze of collecting was in the SA before I went Atom/Gold Age and I remember those early hero back stories. As I recall Ditko had some of those communist oriented back stories.

[Sqeggs]

WW2 gave a boost to superhero comics with ready made villains in the Nazis and the Japanese, and quite clearly after the war the genre began to lose dominance. Still the phenomenal success of Superman and the rise of superhero comics was initially independent of the war in Europe, it wasn't until 1940 that superheroes started battling Nazi's and DC didn't really acknowledge the war until the U.S. was involved directly.

 

It's difficult to say if the superhero genre would have sustained as long as did without World War 2, as the actual time period of U.S. involvement is actually quite short, roughly 3 &1/2 years. Perhaps the novelty of costumed heroes with various powers would have lasted just as long without the war.

 

It is interesting that the Korean conflict just a few years later, while it elevated Communists, in particular the Chinese, to the level of villainy previously enjoyed by the Japanazis, caused an explosion in straight war comics, but did not lead to a superhero revival, and was barely acknowledged in the few remaining superhero books still being published. Atlas did seem to focus on Soviet villains during it's short lived superhero revival, but absent a hot war, I guess it wasn't enough to generate strong sales.

 

I'd say it's a safe bet, that absent WW2, there is a good chance Captain America may never have been created, though the character's longevity has shown that such a conflict isn't needed to maintain interest in him.

 

Nicely said. Just to add a smidge to the Atlas take, the Kirby Big Monster, often the main story in the post-code pre-hero books, would have back stories with a communist bent. Usually not stated but just implied what country was involved.

 

Lots of Communist villains in the early SA Marvel hero books too (TOS, TTA, Hulk to name a few).

 

By gum your right. My earlier daze of collecting was in the SA before I went Atom/Gold Age and I remember those early hero back stories. As I recall Ditko had some of those communist oriented back stories.

 

Marvel had a lot of stories with an anti-communist slant in the late1950s/early 1960s. I'm having trouble recalling many comparable stories from DC, either in their sci-fi/fantasy books or their super hero books.

[PovertyRow]

Superman was the most important thing to happen to comics. If World War II had not happened comics would still have survived. The superhero genre would have just latched onto whatever other historical events that would have occurred. Comics have always had a way of reflected what was going on in the world in general, be it wars, red scares, technological advances, or good or bad economic times. In hindsight, with the history we have had, World War II was the most interesting period for collectors of golden age comics. But given a different history we would have a different perspective and a different set of books as grails.

 

Most perceptive. I tend to feel that WWII was the real impetus for the GA. Technically the GA lasted 9 years if you take 1947 as the start of the Atom Age and accept Atom Age as a viable age. The Atom Age lasted 8 years if you take 1955 and the code as the end of AA, or 9 years if you take Showcase 4 in 1956 as AA end and the start of the SA.

 

But after WW2 there was a lack of - how to put it - a rallying point for the people as the heroes started fighting more criminals. Perhaps logically, crime books started increasing (though they had been around in the pure GA). But as heroes dropped, the other genres, especially horror and sci-fi, really took to the front. Several crime titles would change to a horror format while retaining a crime oriented title. Heck even Captain America had his WEIRD TALES 74 and 75, and didn't even appear in 75, which was a pure horror book.

 

Marvel/Atlas revamped there line and came out with titles like STRANGE TALES, JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY etc. They revamped the old superhero MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS into the horror format MARVEL TALES. EC, Harvey, Ajax Farrell, Fawcett etc etc started churning out the horror as well.

 

Interestingly enough, one of the biggest publishers, DC, had only 3 AA horror titles, which were fairly tame in comparison: House Of Mystery and Sensation Comics which continued into Sensation Mystery. But unlike the other publishers, DC remained true to their main heroes like Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman.

 

When the code forced the horror books to either die out or convert to a more "mystery" format, the red menace with associated things like atom bombs and fallout shelters started to really take hold. The UFO "craze" was also nicely represented, often by Atlas in their post-code but pre-hero titles.

 

Again, the public had something to rally around: but instead of the war itself it was a hidden menace and its attendant paranoia.

 

[BB-Gun]

First of all, I start this thread with the utmost of respect for everyone and everyone's family that was involved in the war. There is no disrespect meant by anything said below.

 

So I was speaking with a dealer at a local show today about how many covers for Action Comics after #65 or so really went down hill. There were some pretty bad covers after the war ended. It made me think how much the war actually helped comic books. I'm not sure of the history behind it, but would Captain America exist if not for the war?

 

What do you guys think?

Ankur

 

Keep in mind that Action #65 came out two years before the war ended. DC must have decided that the public had had their fill of the war, as there were only 3 war covers on the Action title in the ensuing two years.

 

Another interesting title is Detective, with an almost complete absence of war covers. The cover of #64 could be construed as an one, though it's unclear, and #78 has a war bond theme. Other than those two, absolutely nothing from DC's namesake title. I don't expect Batman to be fighting the Nazis in Europe, or the Japanese in the Pacific, but there's no reason they couldn't have had homefront covers, showing him discovering spies, etc.

 

 

Interestingly MLJ also moved away from war covers by 1944, even in the books not taken over by "teen" characters, while Timely, Nedor and Harvey covers were dominated by the war until the very end. DC early on put emphasis on on non-war stories in most of their books, and also put more effort into a variety of super-villains as the Golden Age went on. This variety may have contributed to many of the titles lasting a few years longer than most of the GA costumed hero output.

 

MLJ added another patriotic hero, Captain Flag. I thought the Shield was good enough but I guess I am more upset because CF pushed Mr. Justice to the back of the mag.

 

[vaillant]

Superman was the most important thing to happen to comics. If World War II had not happened comics would still have survived. The superhero genre would have just latched onto whatever other historical events that would have occurred. Comics have always had a way of reflected what was going on in the world in general, be it wars, red scares, technological advances, or good or bad economic times. In hindsight, with the history we have had, World War II was the most interesting period for collectors of golden age comics. But given a different history we would have a different perspective and a different set of books as grails.

 

This is a rough, misleading schematization, Bedrock. Comics, or any kind of narrative, but even essays, do reflect the external events of a given time, but it’s also the other way around. The fact Kirby was the co-creator of Cap obviously made a difference when his lieutenant (I think) knew that as he enrolled. At least, albeit in a tiny way, it changed the morale of his division.

Biro and the Eisner/Iger were already developing awesome ideas before the US got involved in the war, but of course the war offered themes and a scope before unthinked of. With all the biases, the war made the authors think also *internationally*, not just locally. Of course, many Uncle Sam stories would have been great stories also out of a war-referenced frame, but this always works both ways. For example, Inferno (pictured in that Blue Ribbon cover) represent, if I am not mistaken, the very first example of a villain redeemed and turned to hero.

 

Anyone recall if Lee, Kirby, Simon, Goodman, et al. ever offered an opinion on the effects of the war on the business?

 

I don’t know, I admit I have read very little of the essays I have, so far. Jack Kirby mentioned the climate, and how Hitler's decisions were felt by young men his age in the USA, in the interview I did with him.

I must move my and edit the audio to send it to John Morrow to have it reprinted.

 

This question would became really interested if thought in relation with each and every other country already having an established local comics tradition as the war started. I can only think of Italy and France (Japan started in midway to have a modern comics conception, and mostly after the war).