Bronze age comics that are heating up on eBay... 39 39

[HighStakesComics]

Biggest cameo not considered a full? What about ASM #299? I think that has to be as close to a first full without it being technically considered one that there is on the market. So that should be the litmus test. If Gamora appears more than Venom in 299, I'd be okay with it. If not, I believe a label change request is in order.

Edited August 13, 2014 by blazincomics

[AGGIEZ]

Biggest cameo not considered a full? What about ASM #299? I think that has to be as close to a first full without it being technically considered one that there is on the market. So that should be the litmus test. If Gamora appears more than Venom in 299, I'd be okay with it. If not, I believe a label change request is in order.

 

 

Since it's now a relatively hot book/appearance, you can add X-Factor #23 to that list as well. Archangel is on 3 pages in 7-8 panels.

[HighStakesComics]

Here's the cameo from 299. If Gamora appears less than this, I 110% agree with RMA.

Edited August 13, 2014 by blazincomics

[HighStakesComics]

Whoops....."koff".......something wrong with my scanner. I think it's fixed. Here's the ASM #299.

[akaSteveRogers]

I'm not as familiar with #118 at the moment to discuss it intelligently. I am aware that it is considered his first appearance. However, if he appears less than Gamora, it should be considered a cameo.

 

Not sure I agree with this one, since Rhodes was not "War Machine" James Rhodes back then. He was Stark's pilot. He was simply a supporting character and was for some quite some time. He took over as Iron Man, I believe, 50 issues later, then ultimately became War Machine another 100 issues later after that. These elements raised his profile.

 

Are we saying that a supporting character needs a splash page, some action shots (in full garb) and a cover? Maybe CGC recognizes that we don't, hence Iron Man #118 is simply labeled "1st appearance of James Rhodes."

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by akaSteveRogers

[akaSteveRogers]

Iron Man #118, Jim Rhodes panels...

 

EDIT: removed "on the last page."

Edited August 14, 2014 by akaSteveRogers

[HighStakesComics]

Iron Man #118, Jim Rhodes panels on last page....

 

That doesn't pass the 299 test. Someone could challenge that for sure.

[vaillant]

ASM #299 is pretty similar to Hulk #181, as it represents a "final panels surprise entry"…

[HighStakesComics]

ASM #299 is pretty similar to Hulk #181, as it represents a "final panels surprise entry"…

 

They are similar, yes, but isn't the #180 only have a page? The 299 is a page and a half with Venom speaking on both pages.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The dynamic of Spidey #298-300 has always been intriguing. On the one hand, you have McFarlane's first art, issue #298, unquestioned since McFarlane became "hot" as a "big book." In fact, for the first 5 years or so of their existence, #298 was often ahead of #300 in value, and then grew to about par...until Venom became such a big character, and ever since, #300 has left #298 in the dust.

 

#299 has always played second fiddle to both of those books.

 

If #299 had NOT been drawn by McFarlane, then it would undoubtedly be considered a Hulk #180 type situation, and be far more sought after than it has been (considering that the art would have been the same basic layout.)

 

That big last page with Venom is tremendous. But, because of #298 and #300, #299 has always gotten short shrift. #300 is, far and away, the book to own of the run, and the single most important Spiderman book after #129 (long since outpacing #238), and the most important Spiderman villain of the last 40 years, if not the last 50.

 

It can be reasonably claimed, at this point, that Venom is Spiderman's Joker, having surpassed even the Green Goblin in integral importance to the character.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On cameos in general:

 

It's important to understand that, for most of the history of comics as collectibles, people didn't distinguish between "cameo" and "first appearance."

 

There were some notable exceptions (More Fun #51), but they were very rare exceptions. No one did panel counts, and said "well, if there's THIS many panels, and they're speaking, it's not, but if there's THAT many panels, and they appear on the cover, it is", etc.

 

This only began to be a question during the early 80's, when people were wondering what should be worth more.....Hulk #180, or #181.

 

The conventional wisdom said "first appearance is first appearance, no matter how small." And that's what collectors bought.

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

[Gatsby77]

What about for second appearances?

 

I submit that Daredevil # 169 should not count as Elektra's 2nd appearance, as I believe she appears in only 1 1/3 pages (~9 panels) and mostly in shadow.

 

Folks who claim it's her 2nd appearance probably haven't actually cracked the book.

[Silverdream]

On cameos in general:

 

It's important to understand that, for most of the history of comics as collectibles, people didn't distinguish between "cameo" and "first appearance."

 

There were some notable exceptions (More Fun #51), but they were very rare exceptions. No one did panel counts, and said "well, if there's THIS many panels, and they're speaking, it's not, but if there's THAT many panels, and they appear on the cover, it is", etc.

 

This only began to be a question during the early 80's, when people were wondering what should be worth more.....Hulk #180, or #181.

 

The conventional wisdom said "first appearance is first appearance, no matter how small." And that's what collectors bought.

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

I do agree its become ridiculous. So have the prices being paid for funny books. Things change, It WAS that way, but its not anymore. I didn't chose it, the collecting community has decided they want to be told what " THE" book is. I think that point is lost to many on these boards because this is the upper end area of collecting. We don't normally think the same as " average" collectors.

 

The fact that CGC is labeling books differently than what the market decided was THE book to have ages ago creates a problem, one that can only be fixed by a set standard imo.

 

Look at Fantastic Four 67. It was THE book for Him/Warlock ( please no arguments about MP 1 , this is just an example ) FF67 was hands down THE book for nearly 40 years CGC slaps first full app on Thor 165 and look what happens. Now the " market" as you said, has moved to that book, a book that was hardly blinked l at by most collectors for upwards of 4 decades. The market was TOLD what to collect and they are doing it. CGC has a huge influence on the market, so they need to do something towards consistency.

 

All of this is of course my opinion.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On cameos in general:

 

It's important to understand that, for most of the history of comics as collectibles, people didn't distinguish between "cameo" and "first appearance."

 

There were some notable exceptions (More Fun #51), but they were very rare exceptions. No one did panel counts, and said "well, if there's THIS many panels, and they're speaking, it's not, but if there's THAT many panels, and they appear on the cover, it is", etc.

 

This only began to be a question during the early 80's, when people were wondering what should be worth more.....Hulk #180, or #181.

 

The conventional wisdom said "first appearance is first appearance, no matter how small." And that's what collectors bought.

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

I do agree its become ridiculous. So have the prices being paid for funny books. Things change, It WAS that way, but its not anymore. I didn't chose it, the collecting community has decided they want to be told what " THE" book is. I think that point is lost to many on these boards because this is the upper end area of collecting. We don't normally think the same as " average" collectors.

 

I don't agree with most of this, but ok. "Price paid" is entirely relative. And yes, it WAS that way, and is now not.

 

The fact that CGC is labeling books differently than what the market decided was THE book to have ages ago creates a problem, one that can only be fixed by a set standard imo.

 

According to whom? Who "sets" the "standard"? The people on this board can barely agree what time it is, much less some sort of standardized list on what constitutes an appearance.

 

Look at Fantastic Four 67. It was THE book for Him/Warlock ( please no arguments about MP 1 , this is just an example ) FF67 was hands down THE book for nearly 40 years CGC slaps first full app on Thor 165 and look what happens. Now the " market" as you said, has moved to that book, a book that was hardly blinked l at by most collectors for upwards of 4 decades. The market was TOLD what to collect and they are doing it. CGC has a huge influence on the market, so they need to do something towards consistency.

 

All of this is of course my opinion.

 

Thor #165 and #166 were key books back during the original Warlock revival of the early 90's. They were not "hardly blinked at."

 

I think many of you put far too much weight on CGC's labels. CGC has a drop of water in a gigantic lake's worth of influence on the market. The vast, vast majority of people who buy comics have little to nothing to do with CGC or slabbing in general, and certainly could not care less what the label says on a slab.

[Silverdream]

On cameos in general:

 

It's important to understand that, for most of the history of comics as collectibles, people didn't distinguish between "cameo" and "first appearance."

 

There were some notable exceptions (More Fun #51), but they were very rare exceptions. No one did panel counts, and said "well, if there's THIS many panels, and they're speaking, it's not, but if there's THAT many panels, and they appear on the cover, it is", etc.

 

This only began to be a question during the early 80's, when people were wondering what should be worth more.....Hulk #180, or #181.

 

The conventional wisdom said "first appearance is first appearance, no matter how small." And that's what collectors bought.

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

I do agree its become ridiculous. So have the prices being paid for funny books. Things change, It WAS that way, but its not anymore. I didn't chose it, the collecting community has decided they want to be told what " THE" book is. I think that point is lost to many on these boards because this is the upper end area of collecting. We don't normally think the same as " average" collectors.

 

I don't agree with most of this, but ok. "Price paid" is entirely relative. And yes, it WAS that way, and is now not.

 

The fact that CGC is labeling books differently than what the market decided was THE book to have ages ago creates a problem, one that can only be fixed by a set standard imo.

 

According to whom? Who "sets" the "standard"? The people on this board can barely agree what time it is, much less some sort of standardized list on what constitutes an appearance.

 

Look at Fantastic Four 67. It was THE book for Him/Warlock ( please no arguments about MP 1 , this is just an example ) FF67 was hands down THE book for nearly 40 years CGC slaps first full app on Thor 165 and look what happens. Now the " market" as you said, has moved to that book, a book that was hardly blinked l at by most collectors for upwards of 4 decades. The market was TOLD what to collect and they are doing it. CGC has a huge influence on the market, so they need to do something towards consistency.

 

All of this is of course my opinion.

 

Thor #165 and #166 were key books back during the original Warlock revival of the early 90's. They were not "hardly blinked at."

 

I think many of you put far too much weight on CGC's labels. CGC has a drop of water in a gigantic lake's worth of influence on the market. The vast, vast majority of people who buy comics have little to nothing to do with CGC or slabbing in general, and certainly could not care less what the label says on a slab.

 

I was suggesting CGC would be the one who creates the standard. They create the grades, even tho there is arguing about cgc grades, most take it for what it is. I'm just suggesting they follow a set standard when they label something. As it stands, what they label something has a large affect on the book, and I think they do it haphazardly, which I do not think is good.

 

Maybe I dismissed Thor 165/166 too harshly. The point was, FF67 was the main book for 40 years, and its not anymore. As soon as Thor 165 was labeled 1st full there was a shift and its still moving that way.

 

What CGC labels books matter to many people who do not buy CGC books, but buy raw copies. I think you are drastically underestimating the influence CGC has on the market. People do not have to buy into CGC to pay attention to what they are doing with certain books.

 

 

So basically.. we disagree. now what

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Silverdream

[jreezy]

On cameos in general:

 

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

Yes, I agree with this 100%. Some first appearance are not clear cut and it really is what the market decides. Examples include first Psylocke (Captain Britain 8 or NM Annual #2?) Havok ( Xmen 54 first Alex Summers or Xmen 58 First Havok in costume).

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by jreezy

[RockMyAmadeus]

I think you are drastically underestimating the influence CGC has on the market. People do not have to buy into CGC to pay attention to what they are doing with certain books.

 

There are 2,704,568 currently for sale on eBay in the section titled "comics."

 

Of those listings, 64,061 have CGC in the title, which includes PGX books, "CGC it!" and the like.

 

So, 2.4% of the listings are "CGC related."

 

The other 97.6% of the listings in comics have no direct link to CGC.

 

I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the comic collecting world doesn't really care about CGC.

 

Just for comparison's sake: 120,827 of the listings have "Batman" in the title.

 

Nearly twice as many listings have to do with one character, than all the listings that have CGC in the title combined.

[fastballspecial]

On cameos in general:

 

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

Yes, I agree with this 100%. Some first appearance are not clear cut and it really is what the market decides. Examples include first Psylocke (Captain Britain 8 or NM Annual #2?) Havok ( Xmen 54 first Alex Summers or Xmen 58 First Havok in costume).

 

 

It really has gotten bad the last two years. Personally I think its due to a new influx of collectors the past two years. A lot of long time collectors are scratching their/our heads on some of these books.

 

[PeterPark]

On cameos in general:

 

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

Yes, I agree with this 100%. Some first appearance are not clear cut and it really is what the market decides. Examples include first Psylocke (Captain Britain 8 or NM Annual #2?) Havok ( Xmen 54 first Alex Summers or Xmen 58 First Havok in costume).

 

 

It really has gotten bad the last two years. Personally I think its due to a new influx of collectors the past two years. A lot of long time collectors are scratching their/our heads on some of these books.

 

First Psylocke is more a combo of NM Ann 2 and UXM 256 while CB 8 is unequivocally the first Betsy Braddock (thumbs u

 

:spoiler: the 1st Betsy Braddock is the best of them, by far...~$300 or so in NM

[HighStakesComics]

On cameos in general:

 

 

But now, we have this whole discussion about what's a cameo, and what's not, and it all gets very convoluted. The market, as ever, decides what will be.

 

Yes, I agree with this 100%. Some first appearance are not clear cut and it really is what the market decides. Examples include first Psylocke (Captain Britain 8 or NM Annual #2?) Havok ( Xmen 54 first Alex Summers or Xmen 58 First Havok in costume).

 

 

It really has gotten bad the last two years. Personally I think its due to a new influx of collectors the past two years. A lot of long time collectors are scratching their/our heads on some of these books.

 

I think it's generational. Havok, Psylocke, Darkseid, Thanos etc, are what a lot of collectors in their 20's and 30's grew up on. Now that this group of collectors are making a little more money and getting into more expensive comics guess whose first appearances they are buying? The natural laws of supply and demand hold true with any comics, not just the scarcer, older books even though they are magnificent in their own right.