Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay 33 33

[the blob]

 

 

so if there's a book with 500,000 copies out

 

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7000696&fpart=3

 

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/comicbookjunkie/582195-cgc-question.html

 

 

I saw this too. I wish they had a because this was my reaction.

 

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

 

mixed with a lot of (tsk) (tsk) (tsk) (tsk) (tsk)

 

Consider the source and all that, I guess...

 

WTF with all the little yellow guys? I was posing a hypothetical and wasn't talking about slabbed copies either.

 

I guess Spawn 1 isn't a terrible example, but the print-run was bigger. I think there'd be $50-$100 demand on that book if the print run was 25-50K (let's say there was some massive distribution problem on issue #1 and the other 2 million copies were the second print), but at 4 gadjillion, not so much.

[wardevil0]

The way I read it is that the plethora of little yellow guys were in reference to the "Blowout Cards" forum where they were discussing ways to try to cheat a Signature Series label, not your comments, even though the quote blocks went all the way back to you.

[the blob]

RMA messing with me I suppose. May his hoard of Maxx variants develop off-white pages!

[MK Ultra]

RMA messing with me I suppose. May his hoard of Maxx variants develop off-white pages!

 

RMA's link goes to page three, but I suspect he meant to point to six where he wrote,

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Come on, folks, this is 2013. We don't need to make stuff up out of thin air anymore. We have Google and the internet; this information is at the tips of our fingers.

 

Facts:

 

Statement of Ownership, New Mutants #99.

 

Filing Date: Oct 1, 1990.

 

So the single issue nearest to filing date published for purposes of item #10A, Net Press Run, since #99 was printed and published in Jan of 1991, would be either #95 or #96...probably #95...well after Liefeld and Cable became "hot."

 

Average number of copies printed for the preceding period was 289,387, and the actual press run of the single issue nearest to filing date for which this information was known (#95) was 318,102.

 

Next, we have total paid circulation, item #10C, with the following numbers: avg number of copies sold was 182,499, while the single issue nearest to filing date for which this information was known was 194,300. This is the ACTUAL NUMBER OF COPIES SOLD.

 

Now...there is some debate as to whether or not the issue "nearest to filing date" for net press run and the issue "nearest to filing date" for paid circulation is THE SAME ISSUE. If they are not, those numbers would be represented by issues #95 and probably #93, respectively. If they are, obviously they didn't have the paid circulation numbers until approximately two months after the issue first went on sale, so in this case, it would be #93.

 

However...it must be pointed out that in the PREVIOUS statement of ownership, published in issue #89, the numbers were HIGHER, with average print run 313,910; average paid circulation 210,335, so even with blips, the average was still about 10% LESS during the first 8-10 months of Liefeld's tenure than the previous year. New Mutants, sadly, was a declining title, which is the most often cited reason as to why it was given to Liefeld in the first place.

 

It would make sense, either way, as a Wolverine appearance was still a force to be reckoned with, and numbers for #93 OR #95 were up substantially from previous issues, which explains the higher numbers. #95, it must be noted, was part of the first round of X-Tinction Agenda, a crossover so popular, it created the very first demand-based second printings in X-Men history. X-Men #270, New Mutants #95, and X-Factor #60 all sold out at the distribution level, prompting second printings of all three issues almost immediately, a phenomenon that was totally unknown to Marvel before 1990.

If we look at Capital City order numbers, which are known, the order numbers for New Mutants #98 was 55,200. According to established sources, Capital City accounted for about 25-30% of all comics sales at that point, with Diamond accounting for another 40-45% and the newsstand distribution system accounting for the remaining 25-35%. It is important to remember that Net Press Run can be deceiving, as the Direct Market bought comics at a steeper discount that could NOT be returned, while newsstands were returnable. So, while sales at the newsstand accounted for 25-35% of the market, the print run for the newsstand accounted for about 50% of the total print run, with about 70% of the newsstand run ending up as returns (destroyed.) Quite astonishing numbers, but fairly standard at the time. Obviously, the bulk of actual sales at this point was to the Direct Market. (70%+)

 

It is also important to keep in mind that AFTER X-Tinction Agenda was over, orders naturally sank back down. Deadpool as a character did not ignite the world on fire. He would not reappear in the pages of any comic for another 6 months, in the pages of X-Force #1, and then not in a story until issue #2. Unlike both Cable and Gambit, who were immensely popular at or relatively near the time of their first appearances, Deadpool would take 3 years...until his first mini by new fav Joe Maduriera...to "break out", and then it was only a temporary blip. it would be another nearly 15 years before the character finally gained traction with the collecting community as anything beyond a $5 book.

With the 52,500 Cap City number, that puts an actual sales total of *approximately* 175,000-210,000 copies of New Mutants #98 sold, on a print run of about 300,000 (again, this is generous, as the print run for #93 or #95...probably #95...the first part of X-Tinction Agenda...was 318,000 copies, and while the print run would go up for #96 and #97, they would have sunk back down again for #98.)

 

What does all of that mean? Practically speaking, an absolute print run of between 250,000-350,000 TOPS, against actual sales of 175,000-225,000, with the rest BEING DESTROYED (or, at least, mangled beyond collectability.)

Remember...print runs in the days of the newsstand are fairly meaningless as indicators of existing copies when dealing with books that were distributed to the newsstand (as nearly every single Marvel book was and is even to this day.) It wasn't until the newsstand pretty much died in the mid-90's that print runs came near to being absolute numbers in terms of existing copies, meaning that there was NEVER a print run of "500,000 or more" of this book, and actual surviving copies in collectable condition is somewhere around 200,000 in the best case scenario.

 

This book was printed, published, and placed on sale in December of 1990. It would be another nearly 2 years before print runs would increase drastically for nearly all mainstream comics. Yes, you had the anomalous Spiderman #1, but that was all Todd McFarlane. Prior to that, the modern record holder was Legends of the Dark Knight, with 800,000 copies printed. Yes, you read that correctly. The modern RECORD HOLDER (post 1969) for most copies printed was Legends of the Dark Knight #1 at about 800,000. Spiderman came along and topped it at ~1.75 million, but the real craziness didn't even start until 1991's X-Men, then 1992's Spawn #1 and Superman #75...and THEN the lunacy that was 1993 came about.

 

December of 1990...? Not so much.

 

So...can we please put to rest the claims that New Mutants #98 has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of copies, all in pristine condition, sitting around waiting to be subbed...? Tens of thousands, yes. Hundreds....? No.

[awakeintheashes]

The way I read it is that the plethora of little yellow guys were in reference to the "Blowout Cards" forum where they were discussing ways to try to cheat a Signature Series label, not your comments, even though the quote blocks went all the way back to you.

 

That's what mine were for. Sorry...screwed up the editing when replying by phone.

[the blob]

RMA messing with me I suppose. May his hoard of Maxx variants develop off-white pages!

 

RMA's link goes to page three, but I suspect he meant to point to six where he wrote,

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Come on, folks, this is 2013. We don't need to make stuff up out of thin air anymore. We have Google and the internet; this information is at the tips of our fingers.

 

Facts:

 

Statement of Ownership, New Mutants #99.

 

Filing Date: Oct 1, 1990.

 

So the single issue nearest to filing date published for purposes of item #10A, Net Press Run, since #99 was printed and published in Jan of 1991, would be either #95 or #96...probably #95...well after Liefeld and Cable became "hot."

 

Average number of copies printed for the preceding period was 289,387, and the actual press run of the single issue nearest to filing date for which this information was known (#95) was 318,102.

 

Next, we have total paid circulation, item #10C, with the following numbers: avg number of copies sold was 182,499, while the single issue nearest to filing date for which this information was known was 194,300. This is the ACTUAL NUMBER OF COPIES SOLD.

 

However...it must be pointed out that in the PREVIOUS statement of ownership, published in issue #89, the numbers were HIGHER, with average print run 313,910; average paid circulation 210,335, so even with blips, the average was still about 10% LESS during the first 8-10 months of Liefeld's tenure than the previous year. New Mutants, sadly, was a declining title, which is the most often cited reason as to why it was given to Liefeld in the first place.

 

It would make sense, either way, as a Wolverine appearance was still a force to be reckoned with, and numbers for #93 OR #95 were up substantially from previous issues, which explains the higher numbers. #95, it must be noted, was part of the first round of X-Tinction Agenda, a crossover so popular, it created the very first demand-based second printings in X-Men history. X-Men #270, New Mutants #95, and X-Factor #60 all sold out at the distribution level, prompting second printings of all three issues almost immediately, a phenomenon that was totally unknown to Marvel before 1990.

This book was printed, published, and placed on sale in December of 1990. It would be another nearly 2 years before print runs would increase drastically for nearly all mainstream comics. Yes, you had the anomalous Spiderman #1, but that was all Todd McFarlane. Prior to that, the modern record holder was Legends of the Dark Knight, with 800,000 copies printed. Yes, you read that correctly. The modern RECORD HOLDER (post 1969) for most copies printed was Legends of the Dark Knight #1 at about 800,000. Spiderman came along and topped it at ~1.75 million, but the real craziness didn't even start until 1991's X-Men, then 1992's Spawn #1 and Superman #75...and THEN the lunacy that was 1993 came about.

 

December of 1990...? Not so much.

 

That's pretty interesting. So was Liefield full of sh**t when he was claiming the circulation was under 100K when he took over? It does seem that there are zillions of 100s out there. But if he cut circulation by 10% why was he rewarded with a re-boot and a new title?

 

I would have figured that Peter Parker 1 and Star Wars 1 would have had huge print runs, but I guess not approaching 800K? Alpha Flight 1? Seemed like for years I was tripping over Dazzler 1s and Moon Knight 1s.

[the blob]

RMA, any idea what the print-runs on Wolverine Mini 1 and Ronin 1 were?

[thehumantorch]

Holy moly, I may have just picked up the best copper collection I have ever found today. It is looking epic!

 

It is amazing how many 30 somethings have a nice stash of copper in their houses from their childhood.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA messing with me I suppose. May his hoard of Maxx variants develop off-white pages!

 

RMA's link goes to page three, but I suspect he meant to point to six where he wrote,

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Come on, folks, this is 2013. We don't need to make stuff up out of thin air anymore. We have Google and the internet; this information is at the tips of our fingers.

 

Facts:

 

Statement of Ownership, New Mutants #99.

 

Filing Date: Oct 1, 1990.

 

So the single issue nearest to filing date published for purposes of item #10A, Net Press Run, since #99 was printed and published in Jan of 1991, would be either #95 or #96...probably #95...well after Liefeld and Cable became "hot."

 

Average number of copies printed for the preceding period was 289,387, and the actual press run of the single issue nearest to filing date for which this information was known (#95) was 318,102.

 

Next, we have total paid circulation, item #10C, with the following numbers: avg number of copies sold was 182,499, while the single issue nearest to filing date for which this information was known was 194,300. This is the ACTUAL NUMBER OF COPIES SOLD.

 

Now...there is some debate as to whether or not the issue "nearest to filing date" for net press run and the issue "nearest to filing date" for paid circulation is THE SAME ISSUE. If they are not, those numbers would be represented by issues #95 and probably #93, respectively. If they are, obviously they didn't have the paid circulation numbers until approximately two months after the issue first went on sale, so in this case, it would be #93.

 

However...it must be pointed out that in the PREVIOUS statement of ownership, published in issue #89, the numbers were HIGHER, with average print run 313,910; average paid circulation 210,335, so even with blips, the average was still about 10% LESS during the first 8-10 months of Liefeld's tenure than the previous year. New Mutants, sadly, was a declining title, which is the most often cited reason as to why it was given to Liefeld in the first place.

 

It would make sense, either way, as a Wolverine appearance was still a force to be reckoned with, and numbers for #93 OR #95 were up substantially from previous issues, which explains the higher numbers. #95, it must be noted, was part of the first round of X-Tinction Agenda, a crossover so popular, it created the very first demand-based second printings in X-Men history. X-Men #270, New Mutants #95, and X-Factor #60 all sold out at the distribution level, prompting second printings of all three issues almost immediately, a phenomenon that was totally unknown to Marvel before 1990.

If we look at Capital City order numbers, which are known, the order numbers for New Mutants #98 was 55,200. According to established sources, Capital City accounted for about 25-30% of all comics sales at that point, with Diamond accounting for another 40-45% and the newsstand distribution system accounting for the remaining 25-35%. It is important to remember that Net Press Run can be deceiving, as the Direct Market bought comics at a steeper discount that could NOT be returned, while newsstands were returnable. So, while sales at the newsstand accounted for 25-35% of the market, the print run for the newsstand accounted for about 50% of the total print run, with about 70% of the newsstand run ending up as returns (destroyed.) Quite astonishing numbers, but fairly standard at the time. Obviously, the bulk of actual sales at this point was to the Direct Market. (70%+)

 

It is also important to keep in mind that AFTER X-Tinction Agenda was over, orders naturally sank back down. Deadpool as a character did not ignite the world on fire. He would not reappear in the pages of any comic for another 6 months, in the pages of X-Force #1, and then not in a story until issue #2. Unlike both Cable and Gambit, who were immensely popular at or relatively near the time of their first appearances, Deadpool would take 3 years...until his first mini by new fav Joe Maduriera...to "break out", and then it was only a temporary blip. it would be another nearly 15 years before the character finally gained traction with the collecting community as anything beyond a $5 book.

With the 52,500 Cap City number, that puts an actual sales total of *approximately* 175,000-210,000 copies of New Mutants #98 sold, on a print run of about 300,000 (again, this is generous, as the print run for #93 or #95...probably #95...the first part of X-Tinction Agenda...was 318,000 copies, and while the print run would go up for #96 and #97, they would have sunk back down again for #98.)

 

What does all of that mean? Practically speaking, an absolute print run of between 250,000-350,000 TOPS, against actual sales of 175,000-225,000, with the rest BEING DESTROYED (or, at least, mangled beyond collectability.)

Remember...print runs in the days of the newsstand are fairly meaningless as indicators of existing copies when dealing with books that were distributed to the newsstand (as nearly every single Marvel book was and is even to this day.) It wasn't until the newsstand pretty much died in the mid-90's that print runs came near to being absolute numbers in terms of existing copies, meaning that there was NEVER a print run of "500,000 or more" of this book, and actual surviving copies in collectable condition is somewhere around 200,000 in the best case scenario.

 

This book was printed, published, and placed on sale in December of 1990. It would be another nearly 2 years before print runs would increase drastically for nearly all mainstream comics. Yes, you had the anomalous Spiderman #1, but that was all Todd McFarlane. Prior to that, the modern record holder was Legends of the Dark Knight, with 800,000 copies printed. Yes, you read that correctly. The modern RECORD HOLDER (post 1969) for most copies printed was Legends of the Dark Knight #1 at about 800,000. Spiderman came along and topped it at ~1.75 million, but the real craziness didn't even start until 1991's X-Men, then 1992's Spawn #1 and Superman #75...and THEN the lunacy that was 1993 came about.

 

December of 1990...? Not so much.

 

So...can we please put to rest the claims that New Mutants #98 has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of copies, all in pristine condition, sitting around waiting to be subbed...? Tens of thousands, yes. Hundreds....? No.

 

 

(Silly page count differences. If y'all would just set to 25 posts/page, there wouldn't be a problem.)

 

[MK Ultra]

Ronin 6 is impossible to find.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That's pretty interesting. So was Liefield full of sh**t when he was claiming the circulation was under 100K when he took over? It does seem that there are zillions of 100s out there. But if he cut circulation by 10% why was he rewarded with a re-boot and a new title?

 

I would have figured that Peter Parker 1 and Star Wars 1 would have had huge print runs, but I guess not approaching 800K? Alpha Flight 1? Seemed like for years I was tripping over Dazzler 1s and Moon Knight 1s.

 

The number historically given for NM #87 is 110,000 copies SOLD (circulation.) While this may be LOW, it is not too far off when you consider the average was 182K, with the high being 194K (meaning that earlier issues would be substantially lower...perhaps in the 150s...to make the average.)

 

He was given X-Force because circulation numbers for X-Tinction Agenda AND #100 were huge, and Marvel was NOT blind to what was happening in the aftermarket...they gambled, and it paid off in spades, selling 1.75 MILLION copies of X-Force #1.

 

As far as sales in the 80's, they didn't even come close to the heyday of the early 50's, or even much of the 60's. X-Men, the #1 title of the mid-80's, routinely sold about 300-500K copies total, on print runs of about 400-600K.

 

Dazzler #1...especially as a Direct Market Only book...would have had 100% sell-through...for Marvel, anyways...but likely had a print run of only 300-400K copies.

 

Peter Parker #1 doesn't have any circulation info, but Amazing Spiderman from the same period, #175, had an avg. print run of 578K, and sales of 281K. PP #1 would have been printed in lower numbers.

 

Star Wars, of course, hadn't even been released when Star Wars #1 came out, so the print run would have been maybe 200-300K....then when the movie became a pop culture phenom, the first several issues were reprinted ad nauseum to meet demand almost immediately...again, a first for any comic company.

[Ryan.]

What about the print run on an Evil Ernie 1?

 

If anyone's looking for a copy, PM me.

[RockMyAmadeus]

RMA, any idea what the print-runs on Wolverine Mini 1 and Ronin 1 were?

 

The number usually given for Wolverine #1 is 750,000 copies printed. The reason it seems so ultra common is because it is: more than half of the print run was immediately put away in 9.6 (and better) condition, within minutes of the ink drying. It was hoarded like crazy.

 

Ronin #1 likely had about 250,000 copies printed, but again, that was a Direct Market only book, so copies printed = copies sold...as far as DC is concerned. In 1982, selling 250,000 copies of an odd title, even by the hottest artist in the market, was a huge accomplishment, especially at the hefty cover price ($2.50) against a current cover price of 60 cents for regular books.

 

By the way...Ronin #1 is the direct inspiration for the cover of TMNT #1.

 

 

[joecgcmaniac]

RMA, any idea what the print-runs on Wolverine Mini 1 and Ronin 1 were?

 

Wolverine Mini 1 print run? One for every man, woman, and child on Earth. At least that's what it seems like when you can still find unopened cases of the book.

[kimik]

RMA, any idea what the print-runs on Wolverine Mini 1 and Ronin 1 were?

 

Wolverine Mini 1 print run? One for every man, woman, and child on Earth. At least that's what it seems like when you can still find unopened cases of the book.

 

And yet it still flies at shows for up to $75 per raw copy.......

Edited September 14, 2013 by kimik

[joecgcmaniac]

RMA, any idea what the print-runs on Wolverine Mini 1 and Ronin 1 were?

 

Wolverine Mini 1 print run? One for every man, woman, and child on Earth. At least that's what it seems like when you can still find unopened cases of the book.

 

And yet it still flies at shows for up to $75 per raw copy.......

 

Just another example that high print runs don't mean a book can't increase in price and maintain the higher prices.

 

It doesn't hurt that it also has one hell of an iconic cover either.

[Kevin76]

Print run doesn't matter, demand is what matters, think about Hulk 181, no matter how many are out there, it always sells

[Bronty]

Good info RMA but don't you think Peter Parker 1 would have had higher #s than asm 175? That was a hoarded book and a #1 and in my experience very common...

[Bosco685]

RMA, any idea what the print-runs on Wolverine Mini 1 and Ronin 1 were?

 

Wolverine Mini 1 print run? One for every man, woman, and child on Earth. At least that's what it seems like when you can still find unopened cases of the book.

 

And yet it still flies at shows for up to $75 per raw copy.......

 

NM 98 has been selling for an average of $140-$150 for a little while on Ebay when NM. That's quite a markup if these are going for $75 at shows, and then being flipped on Ebay.

[HouseofComics.Com]

Good info RMA but don't you think Peter Parker 1 would have had higher #s than asm 175? That was a hoarded book and a #1 and in my experience very common...

 

I would imagine that even if the print run weren't higher, that the sell through was much higher from speculators buying from their local newsstand distributor, etc.

 

Even in the mid-80s people still had these ties. I know a comic shop owner in Grand Rapids, MI that was able to pick up a good number of Punisher mini #1s newsstand copies from his local distributor when the thing was red hot.