Who Shills?

[batman_fan]

 

I see what you're saying. You're saying two things:

a) You're saying you think it's okay to advertise an item at a price you won't accept and then use deceitful methods to try and push the price up in the hope some gullible guppy will pull the trigger on it in a fit of eBay fever; and

 

No.

 

What I am saying is that if someone uses shill bidders, then they were NEVER going to sell you the book at the low price you want to pay. You've uncovered someone who's trying to bait you.

 

 

So....

 

It follows that you can only be 'suckered' in if you are looking to steal something at a low price. The shill bidder can only take advantage of your greed, he can only draw you in based on your own irrational responses to shilling.

 

This is what you should stop worrying about shill bidders and just decide what you want to pay. If you 'overpay' then it's your fault. You're a big boy, blaming a shill bidder is just ignoring your own greed and your own mistakes.

 

 

Perhaps a way to sum this all up is: buyer beware.

 

 

 

b) You're saying that you shill.

 

 

Nope. Read above.

 

 

No, in all seriousness, this is our point of difference: You think a book with no reserve does not mean it has no reserve.

 

No, I mean what I wrote. Is there a point in your responding to my posts if you're just going to re-edit what I actually say into your own personal biased view what you think my intentions are?

 

Blaming shills is just dodging your own responsibility. Yes, it sucks that you can't really have a 150 dollar book for 50 bucks, but if you're realistic about it from the start you can't really be taken in...

 

 

+1000 I am completely amazed at some peoples logic.

[sufunk]

You couldn't possibly be more wrong Doc!

 

I've bid on books that gpa was say $1000. I set my max bid at $1150 because I want it enough to pay more than I should. I then get shill bid up to $1250 and don't win the book for WELL over gpa and FMV not some "low,low price" like you claim. SOMETIMES what you keep saying is what happens and the shill prevents a book from going dirt cheap but even then it is COMPLETELY wrong. The are also plenty of times though that the shill just insures that the book either goes insanely high or doesn't sell at all (thumbs u

 

Seriously, no offense but your "whatever" viewpoint on shilling is pretty disturbing

[Arkham]

Moreover, the shill is not within policy:

 

Shill bidding policy

In this article

 

Policy overview

What are the guidelines?

Why does eBay have this policy?

Policy overview

 

Shill bidding happens when anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or online connections—bids on an item with the intent to artificially increase its price or desirability. In addition, members cannot bid on or buy items in order to artificially increase a seller's Feedback or to improve the item's search standing.

 

Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you don’t, you may be subject to a range of actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account. Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties.

 

Review our shill bidding policy tutorial to learn more about this policy.

 

 

Reporting shill bidding

 

Learn more about reporting listing violations. If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our privacy policy prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue.

 

What are the guidelines?

 

 

Restricted

Buying an item from someone you know, as long as you don't intend to artificially increase its price or desirability or violate our Feedback manipulation or search and browse manipulation policies

 

Not allowed

Bidding on your own items with another account

[roulette44]

i don't understand why we are even having this debate....

 

 

[tinynascarfan-migration]

 

 

I realize how people will misread what I say, because they focus on the unfairness of a shill while ignoring their own role in the problem. Shill bidders take advantage of your own greed and your own irrational responses to being 'outbid'

 

If you can't set a realistic price and be rational in your purchases, then that's your problem.

 

But go on blaming the shill..... that'll solve the problem just fine....

 

I GOT U DOC! what you are trying so hard to say is, that it is as much the buyers fault as it is the sellers

[Arkham]

i don't understand why we are even having this debate....

 

 

[The-Collector]

 

 

I realize how people will misread what I say, because they focus on the unfairness of a shill while ignoring their own role in the problem. Shill bidders take advantage of your own greed and your own irrational responses to being 'outbid'

 

If you can't set a realistic price and be rational in your purchases, then that's your problem.

 

But go on blaming the shill..... that'll solve the problem just fine....

 

Doctor Wyoming I dont agree with you. What about the situation in which you put in your theoretical maximum bid of $100. The only other bidder's maximum is $70. So you become the lead bidder with a bid of $71. Then through the use of shills the seller continually bumps your bid until he surpasses you by a dollar and then retracts his last bid so that you win the item for your maximum bid of $100. In that case you haven't tried to get the item for below fair market value because if the market had been left unmolested the FMV was $71. In this case the seller has used artificial competition to exploit the difference in yor perceived value and the FMV.

 

[Speedy-D]

 

 

I realize how people will misread what I say, because they focus on the unfairness of a shill while ignoring their own role in the problem. Shill bidders take advantage of your own greed and your own irrational responses to being 'outbid'

 

If you can't set a realistic price and be rational in your purchases, then that's your problem.

 

But go on blaming the shill..... that'll solve the problem just fine....

is he trolling or does he really not understand?

[Arkham]

*edit.

 

Wasn't a helpful post.

[The-Collector]

So if anything it doesn't disadvantage the cheap bidders as those should be naturally competed away it disadvantages the big spenders.

 

And just because someone is willing to spend over FMV it does not give the seller any right to use subterfuge to take advantage of that.

[tinynascarfan-migration]

If you snipe, you can't be shilled.

 

BREAK BREAK BREAK

 

I have actually taken a couple of folks snipe huntin back in the day.

We moved to Knoxville, im a freshman, from a very small town. i make friends, we hangout, we play pranks, i got pranked, i got even.

 

sorry for the interuption in your argument folks, now back to the scheduled fights.

[Chespirito]

 

 

I realize how people will misread what I say, because they focus on the unfairness of a shill while ignoring their own role in the problem. Shill bidders take advantage of your own greed and your own irrational responses to being 'outbid'

 

If you can't set a realistic price and be rational in your purchases, then that's your problem.

 

But go on blaming the shill..... that'll solve the problem just fine....

is he trolling or does he really not understand?

 

I looked for the words "Forum Trolling" in Miriam Websters Online Dictionary, and it had that last POST as an example...so yeah...yeah....totally,

he's totally trolling...

[Prince Namor]

 

Fine, but you're being too concrete here. People taken in by shills clearly start out wanting to pick up books cheaper than market value.

 

Market Value is determined by what someone will actually pay for an item.

Since a shill doesn't actually pay, they are manipulating market value price.

HENCE, it's against eBay policy and actually illegal in some states.

'Market value' isn't something that is determined once and held, it's a constantly evolving price based upon what people actually pay for something. Any manipulation of that is cheating.

 

Winning an item for less than market value isn't cheating. It's the market determining it's value.

 

 

 

[spracknetch23]

Speaking of shills, I had a 0 feedback bidder put 6 bids in at the last minute last night. He paid right away and there were no problems. Sometimes what looks like a shill really isn't. Hopefully the other bidders won't think I was shilling and blacklist me.

 

auction in question:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251225512993

[Tony S]

Gee, what an interesting thread. To begin with, did the OP really ask and expect an answer from sellers that shill?

 

But anyway, I'd like to offer a few observations/comments.

 

First, I suggest that shilling takes two different forms.

a) A "hidden reserve", where the seller wants to make sure it doesn't sell for less than a certain price. But they don't want to list the item with a reserve, for fear bidding will be discouraged. And reserves cost money.

b) The "price inflating" shill, here the seller intends to sell for whatever the highest bid ends up being. But they use shills to try to inflat the price some. The theory being that an interested buyer will not want to lose an item over a dollar or two.

 

One can protect themselves in a large measue from the second type of shill. Those shills stop bidding in the last hour, certainly the last ten minutes of an auction. Price inflating shills DO NOT want to win the item. Snipping - either by waiting to bid in the last minute or using a snipping program, takes care of this type of shilling. At least some second chance offers are a result of price inflating shilling gone bad (for the seller)

 

The first type of shill however - with their hidden reserve - not so much you can do to protect yourself there. The seller is not going to sell the comic for what the market will pay that day - unless it meets their minimum price. It would be more honest to just set a reserve. But reserves cost money and they hold back bidding. I don't do business with sellers I've seen shamelessly shill. A seller a few weeks ago had some nice mid grade keys on ebay. They actually ran the same books in concurrent listings. One a "no reserve" auction, the other BIN listings. Same books. These are CGC graded books, you can see the serial numbers. The auctions closed with winning bids way under the books buy it now prices. Three weeks later the books are still for sale with the BIN listings.

 

It's deplorable - but eBay doesn't seem to give a sheet so it just is what it is.

 

In my experience, hidden reserve shilling is seldom about keeping a nice book from going too cheap. I see this type of shilling more often where sellers want prices way above market. They have a mid grade JIM 83 - a book that routinely sells for around $5,500. And they want 10K for their copy by golly and no less.

 

[Tony S]

Speaking of shills, I had a 0 feedback bidder put 6 bids in at the last minute last night. He paid right away and there were no problems. Sometimes what looks like a shill really isn't. Hopefully the other bidders won't think I was shilling and blacklist me.

 

auction in question:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=251225512993

 

A good point. Shilling is obvious when the book is back for sale immediately. New customers sign up for eBay every day. Lots of new customers. I've had good luck in my auctions with new or nearly new eBay buyers. They are trying to build positive feedback so pay quickly.

[Arkham]

Gee, what an interesting thread. To begin with, did the OP really ask and expect an answer from sellers that shill?

 

No, I was more interested in the thoughts and vibe of the community at large. Hoping for an interesting thread and ever-so-slightly stirring the pot.

 

Kudos to Doc for speaking his mind and, even though his views were unpopular, sticking to his guns.

 

The end result has been a really interesting and thought provoking thread - thanks to all who chipped in! :-)

[Jonesin4Comics]

I shill so much, my shills have shills! I hope you don't get the chills, cuz of all my shills

 

My shills help me pay the bills, that's on the reals

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, I'll be here all week!

 

i shill 4 real

i shill 2 steal

money from my buyers

i laugh with my suppliers

 

Duet on YouTube. Plz. Thx.

 

It was either make a rhyme or kick a puppy, and I was fresh outta puppies

[miraclemet]

If you snipe, you can't be shilled.

 

Yes you can, just not with the upbidding shill method.

 

There are two types of shills.

 

1. The shill who wants to push the bidding up to the lowest acceptable ammount the seller would really want to sell the book at (this is the one where we ask, why not just list it at that price from the start!?!?)

 

2. The shill who wants to get as much as possible out of the real highest bidder, not $1 more than the 2nd highest real bidder.

 

Both of these can be accomplished even when someone tries to snipe.

 

Scenario 2 only requires one very high shill bill that ensures that the shiller wins the auction for $1 more than the max snipe bid, at which point the seller can offer you the book at your max ammount vs having to sell it for $1 more than the 2nd highest real bid.

 

Scenario 1 can do the same with a single shill bid (placed at any time) of the minimum amount the buyer is willing to sell the book for.

 

Either way sniping doesnt help. Sniping only helps if the seller is doing reactive shilling (pushing bids up as they come in) rather than pre-emptive shiilling as I described above.

[COI]

 

I see what you're saying. You're saying two things:

a) You're saying you think it's okay to advertise an item at a price you won't accept and then use deceitful methods to try and push the price up in the hope some gullible guppy will pull the trigger on it in a fit of eBay fever; and

 

No.

 

What I am saying is that if someone uses shill bidders, then they were NEVER going to sell you the book at the low price you want to pay. You've uncovered someone who's trying to bait you.

 

 

So....

 

It follows that you can only be 'suckered' in if you are looking to steal something at a low price. The shill bidder can only take advantage of your greed, he can only draw you in based on your own irrational responses to shilling.

 

This is what you should stop worrying about shill bidders and just decide what you want to pay. If you 'overpay' then it's your fault. You're a big boy, blaming a shill bidder is just ignoring your own greed and your own mistakes.

 

 

Perhaps a way to sum this all up is: buyer beware.

 

 

 

b) You're saying that you shill.

 

 

Nope. Read above.

 

 

No, in all seriousness, this is our point of difference: You think a book with no reserve does not mean it has no reserve.

 

No, I mean what I wrote. Is there a point in your responding to my posts if you're just going to re-edit what I actually say into your own personal biased view what you think my intentions are?

 

Blaming shills is just dodging your own responsibility. Yes, it sucks that you can't really have a 150 dollar book for 50 bucks, but if you're realistic about it from the start you can't really be taken in...

 

 

+1000 I am completely amazed at some peoples logic.