Bigger BA Key: ASM 121 or Batman 232?

[Prince Namor]

No disrespect to Batman 232, which is a great book, but....

ASM 121 forever changed, for better or worse, not just Spider-man, but comics in general.

 

The most popular character in comics, had his girlfriend, a supporting character in the book for ten years, murdered by his most deadly enemy.

 

Comics, once again for better or worse, has been chasing that dramatic scenario ever since, and just haven't been able to equal it. They never will, because everything is retconned now.

 

This was a big deal.

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

 

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

[jools&jim]

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

A more germane comparison would probably be to a comics story which preceded the death of Gwen Stacy by over 30 years, and perhaps even inspired it: the death of Raven Sherman in a 1941 installment of Milton Caniff's Terry and the Pirates comic strip, which in its heyday was read on a daily basis by more people than were reading Superman and Spider-Man comic books combined in 1973. Caniff reported receiving annual tributes from readers on the occasion of the character's passing, and even hate mail for killing her off.

 

So the unexpected death of a major supporting character/romantic interest was not unprecedented in pop culture, but that doesn't make Spidey 121 any less of a landmark issue.

 

What unites the Spidey and Bats books is that both are celebrated for essentially negative reasons (death and villainy, respectively). In that sense, both comics are early signposts along the road of comic books "forever changed, for better or worse," in the decade or two which followed them...

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

A more germane comparison would probably be to a comics story which preceded the death of Gwen Stacy by over 30 years, and perhaps even inspired it: the death of Raven Sherman in a 1941 installment of Milton Caniff's Terry and the Pirates comic strip, which in its heyday was read on a daily basis by more people than were reading Superman and Spider-Man comic books combined in 1973. Caniff reported receiving annual tributes from readers on the occasion of the character's passing, and even hate mail for killing her off.

 

So the unexpected death of a major supporting character/romantic interest was not unprecedented in pop culture, but that doesn't make Spidey 121 any less of a landmark issue.

 

What unites the Spidey and Bats books is that both are celebrated for essentially negative reasons (death and villainy, respectively). In that sense, both comics are early signposts along the road of comic books "forever changed, for better or worse," in the decade or two which followed them...

 

 

Great info on Terry and the Pirates, wasn't aware of that.

 

I wonder about the factors that brought about the change in comics during this time. Declining sales? Competition from other media? A somewhat more educated population needing more than the standard story? A new generation of writers?

You couldn't change who Batman and Spider-man were, that moral code is what made them heroes. But I guess introducing much more devious villains or ramping up the damage a villian did (like murder) would create more of a dilemma for an ethical superhero.

Of course, this would pave the way for the anti-hero and all heck braking loose in the 90's...

[kimik]

The change in the 70s to a darker tone was similar to the early 50s with EC and other horror books taking over the market. It is basically a generational thing. We saw it again with Watchmen and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns in the mid 80s as well.

 

Right now you could argue that Image is pulling the same "change" with all of the sci-fi/fantasy stuff they are putting out that is raking right now.

[kimik]

No disrespect to Batman 232, which is a great book, but....

ASM 121 forever changed, for better or worse, not just Spider-man, but comics in general.

 

The most popular character in comics, had his girlfriend, a supporting character in the book for ten years, murdered by his most deadly enemy.

 

Comics, once again for better or worse, has been chasing that dramatic scenario ever since, and just haven't been able to equal it. They never will, because everything is retconned now.

 

This was a big deal.

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

 

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

It would only be a shock if you were a collector/reader when it happened and you had a vested interest in the character. For those of us who grew up with MJ, Gwen Stacy did not really matter.

[bababooey]

No disrespect to Batman 232, which is a great book, but....

ASM 121 forever changed, for better or worse, not just Spider-man, but comics in general.

 

The most popular character in comics, had his girlfriend, a supporting character in the book for ten years, murdered by his most deadly enemy.

 

Comics, once again for better or worse, has been chasing that dramatic scenario ever since, and just haven't been able to equal it. They never will, because everything is retconned now.

 

This was a big deal.

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

 

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

It would only be a shock if you were a collector/reader when it happened and you had a vested interest in the character. For those of us who grew up with MJ, Gwen Stacy did not really matter.

True it wasn't a shock for those of us who started after 1973 but I followed and looked forward to the Marvel Tales "timeline" as much as the "current timeline" stuff as a kid.

That's my experience, about a year or so into collecting I finally got to read Marvel Tales 98 & bought three copies because I knew they were going to be worth something!!

 

 

 

[mrlatko]

I voted Bats. Ras is a huge villain, heralded arrival of Talia and League of Assassins.

 

I was too young to see the intro of Gwen, don't really recall too much of any effects of it. Death being a part of life, I'd expect everyone to die. Plus this is Marvel; A - the whole universe is a dream of Kang's, and B - they could retconn it tomorrow and then where would I be? Since nobody really dies in Marvel, doesn't realy strike me as big.

 

Now yes with the Marvel death thing happening every other month, but then? Didn't really happen and it was quite a shake-up in the comic book world in the early 70s, hence its importance today. That's why ASM #121 is a bigger BA key than Bats #232. Can't believe I am saying that as a huge Adams fan, but there it is.

[Jeffro.]

No disrespect to Batman 232, which is a great book, but....

ASM 121 forever changed, for better or worse, not just Spider-man, but comics in general.

 

The most popular character in comics, had his girlfriend, a supporting character in the book for ten years, murdered by his most deadly enemy.

 

Comics, once again for better or worse, has been chasing that dramatic scenario ever since, and just haven't been able to equal it. They never will, because everything is retconned now.

 

This was a big deal.

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

 

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

It would only be a shock if you were a collector/reader when it happened and you had a vested interest in the character. For those of us who grew up with MJ, Gwen Stacy did not really matter.

 

This is a valid perspective for those of us who came after the event.

 

As far as the overall importance, I don't know. I'm torn but I'm leaning toward the first appearance of a major character as being more important than what happened in ASM 121.

 

[telerites]

Bats for me. I actively started reading comics around 1974 and was a Marvel fanatic. Even though both were before, once I discovered the Adams Batmans as I bought back issues, this issue always stood out. Gwen's death never did much to or for me but like others have said, much comes down to personal preference and opinion.

 

Just looking at 9.8 GPA prices of both, ASM 121 has outpaced Bats 232 and the census numbers are staggering - 2065 total (blue, PLOD, GLOD, SS) and only 845 graded for Bats. Even not totally trusting the census numbers, that is quite a bit of difference.

 

 

 

[MK Ultra]

No disrespect to Batman 232, which is a great book, but....

ASM 121 forever changed, for better or worse, not just Spider-man, but comics in general.

 

The most popular character in comics, had his girlfriend, a supporting character in the book for ten years, murdered by his most deadly enemy.

 

Comics, once again for better or worse, has been chasing that dramatic scenario ever since, and just haven't been able to equal it. They never will, because everything is retconned now.

 

This was a big deal.

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

 

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

Was Spidey the most popular character in comics in 1973?

[Maccai3]

tough one, i'd choose the Batman 232 every time as i don't collect Spiderman but it may edge it overall, technically didn't Spiderman kill her? unintentionally of course

[Prince Namor]

No disrespect to Batman 232, which is a great book, but....

ASM 121 forever changed, for better or worse, not just Spider-man, but comics in general.

 

The most popular character in comics, had his girlfriend, a supporting character in the book for ten years, murdered by his most deadly enemy.

 

Comics, once again for better or worse, has been chasing that dramatic scenario ever since, and just haven't been able to equal it. They never will, because everything is retconned now.

 

This was a big deal.

 

Comparable?

The only thing I can think of is, when Superman was in his hey day, the early to mid 60's, having Lex Luthor murder Lois Lane.

Can you even imagine that?

No.

Wouldn't happen.

 

It's a unique issue. And one we won't really ever see the likes of again.

 

Was Spidey the most popular character in comics in 1973?

 

It's hard to say because there isn't hard data there but Marvel had taken over the top spot from DC by this point and ASM was there top selling book.

[Loki]

tough one, i'd choose the Batman 232 every time as i don't collect Spiderman but it may edge it overall, technically didn't Spiderman kill her? unintentionally of course

 

The scenario I've heard put forth is that by suddenly stopping Gwen's fall with his webbing, Spidey caused her neck to fracture, resulting in her death.

 

However, had he done nothing, I'm 99.9% certain the fall would have killed her. In which case, I'd still place the blame with the Goblin for Gwen's death - he acted with intent to put Gwen in the position of peril in the first place. Just as a back-up argument -> Good Samaritan laws, etc, etc...

 

BTW - My vote goes for ASM #121.

[Dark Knight]

Voted for ASM 121 even if I'm a big Batman fan.

[lscomics]

As you can see, I'm partial to the 232 and voted that way for a couple of reasons.

 

1) The death of a character has been turned into a meaningless gimmick over the last 20 years. At the time of publication I'd say that Gwen's death was a much bigger deal and had more of an impact but has been trivialized over the years with all the subsequent deaths and resurrections.

 

2) Ra's Al Ghul is without question one of the most original villains conceived since the Silver Age and the original epic by Adams & O'Neil starting in Detective Comics 405 and running through Batman 245 is every bit as good today as it was 40 years ago.

 

[Ken Aldred]

Exactly.

 

I answered the question from a 'now' rather than 'then' perspective. Novel, shocking and powerful to see then, especially as a teenager, now little more than the first big example (at Marvel) of a device which has become a tired, boring, manipulative, temporary sales-boosting strategy.

[40sJohn]

Voted for ASM 121 even if I'm a big Batman fan.

 

Same here.

[MagnetoWasRight]

I voted for ASM 121 myself...some people claim I tend to be a Marvel Zombie...I don't know what they're talking about.

 

Speaking of, do we have a ASM 121 club thread?

[jjonahjameson1]

Which is the more valuable and historically significant Bronze Age key:

 

Amazing Spider-Man 121?

 

or

 

Batman 232?

 

 

I want to take the discussion back to the the original posters' question, which is actually two questions:

 

1. Which is the more valuable?

2. Which is the more historically significant?

 

The second question is easiest to answer. Historically, ASM 121 is hands-down most significant. Remember, we're not taking about current day popularity, number of subsequent appearances in comics, movies, etc. Taking the question in this context clearly eliminates Batman 232 as a consideration for historically significant.

 

Regarding question #1, which is the more valuable, well, GPA and results from auction houses will answer that.

[bronze johnny]

Hi, jjonahjameson1, and thanks for the insight. The main question presented is which is the bigger BA key? In determining this question, I included the two primary "properties" that are generally assessed in defining a key book and its degree of overall significance: historical and market value. I specifically connected these properties with a conjunction since they are both required in any successful attempt to determine which is the overall important key book. I'm not exclusively asking whether one is more historically significant or more valuable than the other. This disjunctive connection takes us in a different direction leading to the example you provide and begs the question- which is the bigger key? ASM 121 or Bats 232?

Moreover, I'm not sure it's that easy to conclude that ASM 121 is historically more significant than Bats 232. The history of each of these books and the interpretations of posterity have evolved. Whether "death" books have impacted ASM 121's significance or the question of Ras'' evolutionary rise in stature as perhaps the greatest and darkest villian of the BA during the decades that followed his inception are historical questions that should be analyzed. Should a book only be defined at the time of its inception and what reaction it receives at that time? Wouldn't be fair to either of these two great BA books if we simply took them in their BA context and left it at that. Both books continue to demonstrate their greatness generally because of the historical impact they've had on the posterity of comic book readers and collectors. Their respective publishers have subsequently even gone to great lengths to capitalize on these books (perhaps to a gratuitous extreme in some cases?).

Respectfully,

John