Definition of Bronze Age ending point for purposes of the boards

[Bosco685]

We've had many discussions about the Bronze-Copper transition period, and it always seems to blend in between 1980-1984. As mentioned earlier, Joe Collector had brought up some of the events and issues of the beginning period that I have to agree shows some of the change that were taking place.

 

Take your pick for End of Bronze/Start of Copper:

 

May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art

Nov 1979: Iron Man #128 "Demon in a Bottle"

Feb 1980: She-Hulk #1

Mar 1980: King Conan 1

Apr 1980: Star Trek 1

Spring 1980: Epic Illustrated 1

Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix

Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans

Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1

Nov 1980: Moon Knight gets his own series

1980 : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot

Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra

Jan 1981: X-Men 141- Days of Future Past launches alternate time line that would form the basis for lots of uber-fandom-based X-continuity over the next several years

Jan 1981: Capital Comics launches and publishes Nexus 1

Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne

Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series

Mar 1981: Bizarre Adventures starts

Mar 1981: Captain Canuck is cancelled

May 1981: Eclipse Magazine starts

June 1981: The Hulk magazine ends

Jul 1981: Fantastic Four 232 - Byrne takes over FF writing/art duties.

Aug 1981: Rogue debuts

Aug 1981: Marvel Premiere ends

Nov 1981: Captain Victory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher

1981: Marvel cancels many of its reprint titles, including MGC, AA, TTA, MSA, etc.

1981: Stan Lee moves to California to head Marvel TV/movie properties, leaving Jim Shooter in charge

March 1982: Warrior Magazine #1 (Marvelman, V for Vendetta)

May 1982: Saga of the Swamp Thing #1

June 1982: G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

June 1982: Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions #1 (first Marvel mini-series, precursor to Secret Wars)

Sept 1982: Love and Rockets debuts

Sept 1982: Wolverine Mini #1

1982: Harvey Comics, Warren Publishing and Spire Comics cease operations

1982: DC cancels remaining Horror titles

1982: Start of creator royalties at Marvel and DC

1982: Steve Geppi founds Diamond

1982: Marvel introduces Graphic Novel series, including Death of Captain Marvel and X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills

 

Just saying TMNT #1 is that hard stop where the entire influence of the Copper Age took place would be a tough sell. The anti-hero/B&W/creator owned influences are what drove new energy into the market leading to Copper, which required many events/many issues to influence this transition.

[makeminemego]

I've always thought of Marvel's title reorganization in March/April/May of 1968 to be the start of the death spiral of the Silver Age, and a transition to the Bronze Age. In my mind, the Bronze Age started in the summer of 1969, when the big 2 went to 15 cent cover prices. I think it ends when 40 cent cover prices appeared in early 1979.

 

That's just the clean cut way that I organize my short boxes. It's easier than trying to figure out which storyline based "event" triggered a change in what age comics appropriate themselves to. However, if I were to base age seperation into comic events, I would likely think the Kree-Skrull War could be a starting point, and Miller's run on Daredevil could be an ending point.

 

Just conjecture on my part. I know everyone has their own opinions, many of which are more thoughtful than mine.

[the blob]

for selling purposes, 12/31/84...they want to push it to 1986, i'm fine with that...i don't care anymore!

[Gatsby77]

Can't we pick books? You know, Conan 1, GL 76, ASM 121/122 for the beginning.

 

Maybe TMNT 1, or something for the end? Not as familiar with the end. Did you look in the cooper forum?

 

I believe this is (roughly) the definition that both Overstreets and eBay use (1970-1983).

 

Personally, it's hard for me to think of the early New Teen Titans issues as Bronze.

[zosocane]

We've had many discussions about the Bronze-Copper transition period, and it always seems to blend in between 1980-1984. As mentioned earlier, Joe Collector had brought up some of the events and issues of the beginning period that I have to agree shows some of the change that were taking place.

 

Take your pick for End of Bronze/Start of Copper:

 

May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art

Nov 1979: Iron Man #128 "Demon in a Bottle"

Feb 1980: She-Hulk #1

Mar 1980: King Conan 1

Apr 1980: Star Trek 1

Spring 1980: Epic Illustrated 1

Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix

Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans

Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1

Nov 1980: Moon Knight gets his own series

1980 : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot

Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra

Jan 1981: X-Men 141- Days of Future Past launches alternate time line that would form the basis for lots of uber-fandom-based X-continuity over the next several years

Jan 1981: Capital Comics launches and publishes Nexus 1

Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne

Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series

Mar 1981: Bizarre Adventures starts

Mar 1981: Captain Canuck is cancelled

May 1981: Eclipse Magazine starts

June 1981: The Hulk magazine ends

Jul 1981: Fantastic Four 232 - Byrne takes over FF writing/art duties.

Aug 1981: Rogue debuts

Aug 1981: Marvel Premiere ends

Nov 1981: Captain Victory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher

1981: Marvel cancels many of its reprint titles, including MGC, AA, TTA, MSA, etc.

1981: Stan Lee moves to California to head Marvel TV/movie properties, leaving Jim Shooter in charge

March 1982: Warrior Magazine #1 (Marvelman, V for Vendetta)

May 1982: Saga of the Swamp Thing #1

June 1982: G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

June 1982: Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions #1 (first Marvel mini-series, precursor to Secret Wars)

Sept 1982: Love and Rockets debuts

Sept 1982: Wolverine Mini #1

1982: Harvey Comics, Warren Publishing and Spire Comics cease operations

1982: DC cancels remaining Horror titles

1982: Start of creator royalties at Marvel and DC

1982: Steve Geppi founds Diamond

1982: Marvel introduces Graphic Novel series, including Death of Captain Marvel and X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills

 

Just saying TMNT #1 is that hard stop where the entire influence of the Copper Age took place would be a tough sell. The anti-hero/B&W/creator owned influences are what drove new energy into the market leading to Copper, which required many events/many issues to influence this transition.

 

Agreed. TMNT #1 should not be a demarcation point in ages. The book, while very original in its own right (return of funny animal, etc.), was influenced by (i) the resurgence in X-Men and Teen Titans, (ii) the Frank Miller ninja storylines in the '81 period in Daredevil and (iii) the success of the independent publishers like Pacific/First in '81 and '82. In other words, those three things don't happen, we never get to TMNT.

 

A period of resurgence shouldn't mark the end of a period -- it should mark the beginning of a new one. Which is why the start of Copper should fall in the '80 to '82 period. If I had to pick any one issue to start Copper, I would probably pick New Teen Titans #1 (Nov 1980) or, better yet, X-Men # 137 (Sep 1980) (DC was responding to the hugely popular X-Men in dusting Teen Titans off the shelf and pairing up Wolfman/Perez to compete with the Claremont/Byrne juggernaut).

 

That 1980 to 1982 period of resurgence was a great time to be reading new comics; where the agony of anticipating the next issue and the joy of reading easily outweighed the rewards of collecting/investing (today, alas, it seems to be the other way around). Going to the LCS each week was a treat because the stuff that was coming out was really good. The Byrne FF run was really amazing stuff. So was the Moore/Bissette/Tottleben Swamp Thing run. Fun times!

 

 

[Bosco685]

If you look at the extended timeline going into 1984, there were many events that took place in the way of Big Two title changes, character launches from many companies, and creative teams formed that would drive major changes in the industry.

 

May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art

Nov 1979: Iron Man #128 "Demon in a Bottle"

Feb 1980: She-Hulk #1

Mar 1980: King Conan 1

Apr 1980: Star Trek 1

Spring 1980: Epic Illustrated 1

Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix

Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans

Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1

Nov 1980: Moon Knight gets his own series

1980 : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot

Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra

Jan 1981: X-Men 141 "Days of Future Past" launches alternate timeline which would form the basis for many X-continuity books/characters over the next several years.

Jan 1981: Capital Comics launches and publishes Nexus 1

Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne

Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series

Mar 1981: Bizarre Adventures starts

Mar 1981: Captain Canuck is cancelled

May 1981: Eclipse Magazine starts

June 1981: The Hulk magazine ends

Jul 1981: Fantastic Four 232 - Byrne takes over FF writing/art duties.

Aug 1981: Rogue debuts

Aug 1981: Marvel Premiere ends

Nov 1981: Captain Victory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher

1981: Marvel cancels many of its reprint titles, including MGC, AA, TTA, MSA, etc.

1981: Stan Lee moves to California to head Marvel TV/movie properties, leaving Jim Shooter in charge

Jan 1982: Comico Comics founded: publishes Comico Primer #1.

Feb 1982: Comico Primer #2 introduces the character Grendel (Hunter Rose) by Matt Wagner.

March 1982: Warrior Magazine #1 (Marvelman, V for Vendetta)

May 1982: Saga of the Swamp Thing #1

June 1982: G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1

June 1982: Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions #1 (first Marvel mini-series, precursor to Secret Wars)

Sept 1982: Love and Rockets debuts

Sept 1982: Wolverine Mini #1

1982: Harvey Comics, Warren Publishing and Spire Comics cease operations

1982: DC cancels remaining Horror titles

1982: Start of creator royalties at Marvel and DC

1982: Steve Geppi founds Diamond

1982: Marvel introduces Graphic Novel series, including Death of Captain Marvel and X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills.

Dec 1982: New Mutants introduction published in Marvel Graphic Novel #4, leading to a 1983-1991 dedicated title.

Jan 1983: Bill Willingham’s The Elementals introduced as part of backup story of Justice Machine Annual 1 (Texas Comics).

Jan 1983: Albedo Anthropomorphics #0 published by Steven Gallacci.

Feb 1983: The Buyer's Guide to Comics Fandom is acquired by Krause Publications and changes its name to Comics Buyer's Guide.

Mar 1983: Warp published by First Comics, which also is its first comic by this later recognized independent publisher.

May 1983: Jason Todd makes his debut as the second Robin in Detective Comics #526.

Jun 1983: Master of Kung Fu, with issue #125, is cancelled by Marvel.

Jun 1983: Marvel Two-in-One, with issue #100, is cancelled by Marvel (replaced the following month by the new title The Thing).

Jun 1983: Jon Sable published by First Comics.

Jul 1983: First issue of Frank Miller's Ronin limited series published by DC Comics.

Jul 1983: Final issue of Brave and the Bold; also features a preview insert for the new title Batman and the Outsiders.

Jul 1983: Mike Baron’s The Badger #1 published by Capital Comics.

Aug 1983: Alan Moore's "The Bojeffries Saga" starts with Warrior #12, published by Quality Communications (continued through 1986).

Aug 1983: Harris Publications acquired Warren Publishing's company assets (Vampirella, Creepy, Eerie); later gives up Creepy and Eerie.

Sep 1983: With issue #503, DC ceases publishing Adventure Comics, which had been running continuously since November 1938.

Oct 1983: House of Mystery, with issue #321, canceled by DC.

Oct 1983: American Flagg! published by First Comics.

Nov 1983: Walt Simonson makes his debut as writer/artist on Thor with issue #337; introduces Beta Ray Bill.

1983: DC Comics acquires most of Charlton's superhero characters (includes Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, The Question).

Jan 1984: Alan Moore takes over writing responsibilities for Saga of the Swamp Thing title with issue #20.

May 1984: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 published by Mirage Studios.

May 1984: Marvel launches the Secret Wars; includes the introduction of a Spider-Man black suit in issue #8.

Nov 1984: Albedo Anthropomorphics #2 contains Stan Sakai’s “The Goblin of Adachigahara”, introducing Usagi Yojimbo.

1984: Antarctic Press, Continuity Comics, Deluxe Comics, Matrix Graphic Series, and Renegade Press launch comic publication.

 

That's why to say it all started with TMNT #1 would mean characters like American Flagg!, The Badger, The Elementals, The New Mutants and Nexus were all Bronze Age creations. I have never heard of these titles falling into that time period bucket.

 

And look at all that activity between 1982-1983 alone that drove a lot of what becomes the Copper Age.

[vane]

This what ended the Bronze Age.

 

 

[chrisco37]

This what ended the Bronze Age.

 

 

 

Why do you say that?

[vane]

This what ended the Bronze Age.

 

 

 

Why do you say that?

 

It's the death of an icon. The golden age Batman.

[Tony S]

I've come to dislike the "ages" in comics. No matter how, they have an artificial, contrived feel. Worse still, they are based on precious metals. Some day there will be modern books that are too old to be modern anymore. What metal is left? Tin? Aluminum?

 

I collected comics starting in the mid 60's. Let me tell you - in 1971 we didn't know that the Silver Age was over and the Bronze had started. If we talked about ages at all, we talked about being in the "Second Heroic Age" of comics. It started with Flash 105 according to the OPG and we were in it.

 

If you talk about ages, if you create ages, invariably you have a point in time. And that means a book. For every age there are books that blur the line, that indicate things to come. Important, but not important enough. Detective 225 came out before Showcase 4 - as did Young Men 24. The Phantom appeared in Ace Comics before Superman did in Action Comics. They aren't enough

 

TMNT 1 is the point in time, the book, that clearly marks something really had changed.

[Battle]

Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars but I'm a Marvel Lemming.

[chrisco37]

This what ended the Bronze Age.

 

 

 

Why do you say that?

 

It's the death of an icon. The golden age Batman.

 

Ahhh..I thought it might've been last sucky Jim Aparo cover.

[chrisco37]

 

TMNT 1 is the point in time, the book, that clearly marks something really had changed.

 

In all seriousness, I agree with this. (thumbs u

[Bosco685]

It is a very clean approach to pick a single book. We all want that simple cutoff which can be recognized as the transition point. So I can understand why someone would pick something so different like TMNT #1.

 

But in building out that timeline of events brought me more comfort with the conclusion there was no single book which served as the catalyst leading to the Copper Age. It was not that cut-and-dry a period in comic history. And that's okay, because so much greatness occurred during that time.

[Dale Roberts]

Amazing Spider-man #238, Wolverine #1 mini series, Punisher #1 mini series, etc is probably about the time of the beginning of the copper age. New Teen Titans #1, the Last Superman story, lots of stuff like this happening around this time. Independent publishers is certainly a factor as well.

[Bosco685]

Amazing Spider-man #238, Wolverine #1 mini series, Punisher #1 mini series, etc is probably about the time of the beginning of the copper age. New Teen Titans #1, the Last Superman story, lots of stuff like this happening around this time. Independent publishers is certainly a factor as well.

 

 

Good times!

 

DC Comics Presents 26 was also another great book from that period. I still love that cover.

 

[chrisco37]

It is a very clean approach to pick a single book. We all want that simple cutoff which can be recognized as the transition point. So I can understand why someone would pick something so different like TMNT #1.

 

But in building out that timeline of events brought me more comfort with the conclusion there was no single book which served as the catalyst leading to the Copper Age. It was not that cut-and-dry a period in comic history. And that's okay, because so much greatness occurred during that time.

 

It's definitely a "grey area". Much like Bronze; is it GL#76, Conan #1, ASM 121/122?

 

If you have to pick one, I do like TMNT #1 as the start (if I have to pick a book). It falls within the generally accepted time frame.

 

Nobody disputes that it is a "true key". It ushered in the the Independent books (Cerebus #1 was earlier, but definitely a Bronze book).

[shadroch]

Amazing Spider-man #238, Wolverine #1 mini series, Punisher #1 mini series, etc is probably about the time of the beginning of the copper age. New Teen Titans #1, the Last Superman story, lots of stuff like this happening around this time. Independent publishers is certainly a factor as well.

 

 

 

I agree,but there is quite a bit of time between Wolverine 1 and The Last Superman story arc.

[vaillant]

I've come to dislike the "ages" in comics. No matter how, they have an artificial, contrived feel. Worse still, they are based on precious metals. Some day there will be modern books that are too old to be modern anymore. What metal is left? Tin? Aluminum?

 

Right, but this goes for all kind of labeling, even in philosophy, or historical studies. Hell, even in medicine.

There is to say that age ranges seem to have been emerged quite "naturally", so strictly speaking they are not "artificial".

 

Proof of what you say, however, is that no one has come up with a decent label for the current age, as "Modern" does not indicate anything and strictly speaking it’s not a chronological category.

[Tony S]

I've come to dislike the "ages" in comics. No matter how, they have an artificial, contrived feel. Worse still, they are based on precious metals. Some day there will be modern books that are too old to be modern anymore. What metal is left? Tin? Aluminum?

 

Right, but this goes for all kind of labeling, even in philosophy, or historical studies. Hell, even in medicine.

There is to say that age ranges seem to have been emerged quite "naturally", so strictly speaking they are not "artificial".

 

Proof of what you say, however, is that no one has come up with a decent label for the current age, as "Modern" does not indicate anything and strictly speaking it’s not a chronological category.

 

"Modern" is not much of a label for an "age" for sure. I don't know if anyone will be calling this current age anything different in the future, but I have a good idea of what the next age might be called.

 

Comics in digital form are slowing catching on. As a collector it is hard for me to imagine treasuring what's on my computer or tablet the way I do printed comics. But it seems likely that sometime in the not too distant future digital downloads will catch up to and surpass printed comics. So the "Digital Age". Maybe the exact date of the Digital age will be decided by when digital sales overall surpass printed. But more likely - given previous ages - it will be based on the first digital book that consistently enjoys widespread success.