Batgirl 19 with a bit of a surprise

[CKB]

Also she's been dating Barbara's brother.

 

Wut??? So we have Crying Game going on in Batgirl?

[miraclemet]

They are simply utilizing the time honored technique of exploitation to seduce white males that have a perversion for voyeurism into buying their pulp.

 

Do you actually think that is what Gail Simone is doing? She's concocted a fiendish plot to increase her readership by including a transgendered bisexual secondary character?

 

I dont get why there are issues of exploitation here but people lap up Michael Turner's Fathom cheescase, or Witchblade....

 

[krighton]

So I guess Barbara's brother knew......or did he. OK maybe I'll visit the golden age forum.

[Crimebuster]

With respect to Stan and Jack introducing the Black Panther, it was a fairly bold move at the time, one that ran more of a risk of losing sales than gaining sales.

 

Seven months prior to FF #52 coming out, Dell put out Lobo #1, featuring a black western gunfighter hero. According to creator Tony Tallarico, Dell printed around 200k copies and ended up selling only around 10k. That's because a number of retailers refused to distribute a book featuring a black hero. Readers never had the chance to decide for themselves. Of course, FF was a much more established title, and Black Panther was only a guest star. But it was a definite risk, rather than some brilliant plan to boost sales.

 

As for the rest of this thread,

[tabcom]

An honest question then. Was it 'agenda driven' when DC and Marvel writers first introduced black supporting characters into mainstream superhero books?

 

The implications of your question is that you are making a false equation argument. That is, sexual politics and racial inequality are similar. They're not.

[october]

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Sorry, I've been gone all week and feeling lazy.

 

Is there any thought that this is why Simone left the book? DC tried to force her to do it and she was unhappy- then she decided to go with it at the cost of losing her job.

 

Honestly, this is not a big deal at all. They should have tried to make her roommate a bigger character that we felt invested in before a move like this happened. It would have added more substance to the issue.

[tabcom]

They are simply utilizing the time honored technique of exploitation to seduce white males that have a perversion for voyeurism into buying their pulp.

 

Do you actually think that is what Gail Simone is doing? She's concocted a fiendish plot to increase her readership by including a transgendered bisexual secondary character?

I can't speak for what the latest sexual politics sub-text is.

 

I checked out the 1st anthology at the library last summer. My recollection of the first six issues was that to striking a match in the dark and watching the bright sparks for a few moments and then blue smoke rising up in the night sky as the match extinguished. I was also mildly aroused for a brief moment during the show. When I returned the book to the library, I had no interest in pulling another match from the box.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

An honest question then. Was it 'agenda driven' when DC and Marvel writers first introduced black supporting characters into mainstream superhero books?

 

The implications of your question is that you are making a false equation argument. That is, sexual politics and racial inequality are similar. Their not.

 

Eh I sort of disagree with your comment here. Equality is something important to all people. Equality stretches beyond color, sex, race, etc.

 

Now was it agenda driven? I think it was story driven- just like this story. Why does everything have to have some alternative secret agenda?

[miraclemet]

An honest question then. Was it 'agenda driven' when DC and Marvel writers first introduced black supporting characters into mainstream superhero books?

 

The implications of your question is that you are making a false equation argument. That is, sexual politics and racial inequality are similar. Their not.

 

Is this better:

 

Is it agenda driven when Marvel/DC introduce any minority group (meaning a group differing from the majority of the population) into the comic book universe?

 

 

[jools&jim]

 

Of course, FF was a much more established title, and Black Panther was only a guest star. But it was a definite risk, rather than some brilliant plan to boost sales.

 

Agreed. And the reason it was risky is because the readership and retail outlets for the FF at that point were more diverse than the relatively more homogenous LCS crowd of today.

 

I can't imagine the typical adult LCS patron cancelling their sub to a title like Batgirl (which is aimed at the adult fanbase) solely because of this; but I can easily imagine racist parents back in the '60s NOT allowing their kids to buy a comic book with a black hero in it.

 

Which is why comparing a modern storyline created for mostly adult fans to something comparably controversial published during the '60s or '70s is wrong-headed: the business of, and the audience for, comics has changed radically during the intervening 40 years...

[Icculus308win]

Political correctness is invading comics,this is a travesty.

 

Why is it 'political correctness' to accurately portray the make-up of our general population?

 

Considering there is not one other transgendered character in the whole of the Marvel & DC stable, I'd say the publishers have been failing to reflect their readership for a very long time.

I couldn't agree less with this statement.

 

According to New York Times, a leading crusader of liberal sexual politics, only about 1 in 30 identify themselves as gay. Out of the less than 4% of the general population, who identify themselves gay, how many would identify with a cross gender superhero? That guess would certainly fall somewhere less than 1%.

 

With respects to DC reflecting their readership, they got that figured perfectly.

They are simply utilizing the time honored technique of exploitation to seduce white males that have a perversion for voyeurism into buying their pulp.

 

Not too shabby. Not too shabby at all.

[Wally's Comics]

Plain and Simple - COMICS ARE ON LIFE SUPPORT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A NOSTALGIC FUTURE!

 

 

This this reason I left moderns, just too many titles that are trying to be

hey looky me shock topics, and if it's not shocking enough let's put peanut butter on it!

 

Seems like they are literally in a contest to who can get to a hot button the quickest.

 

I am counting down the seconds to Batman giving Robin cleveland steamers

and Krypto playing 2 girls one cup with Commissioner Gordon...

 

Not to go all JC on you, but this craap is colossally boring!!!

 

 

 

[Point Five]

It sounds like some folks posting here have not read the interview with writer Gail Simone that Dan/Donut provided. Here are some excerpts:

 

 

GS: Well, yeah, I want to do this right, representation is important. No one wants stereotypes or tokens. We want believable characters we can care about, that we want to know more about. The nice thing is, with Alysia, she’s been in the book since issue one, readers already know her and care about her. They’ve been asking for more of her story, so I think they are already rooting for her. It makes me happy—I have met so many trans readers over the years. I hope they love Alysia as much as we do.

 

... But there’s a large LGBTQ readership in comics, the audience is hugely diverse. It’s wonderful. Our common language is nerdhood. I love that. We may come from different continents, but dammit, we can recite the Green Lantern Oath!

 

... Absolutely, I have been speaking with trans writers and bloggers and friends about this for quite some time, and they’ve been keeping it confidential, for which I’m eternally grateful. I can’t thank them enough for their generosity and kindness and insight, particularly blogger Natalie Reed, who is a hardcore comics fan and a wonderful writer, who gave endlessly of her time to help us get this right.

 

 

[miraclemet]

Sorry, I've been gone all week and feeling lazy.

 

Is there any thought that this is why Simone left the book? DC tried to force her to do it and she was unhappy- then she decided to go with it at the cost of losing her job.

 

Honestly, this is not a big deal at all. They should have tried to make her roommate a bigger character that we felt invested in before a move like this happened. It would have added more substance to the issue.

 

Well Issue #16 was supposed to be her last issue, so I dont know that she would have already pitched this part of issue #19 at the time, but maybe...

 

Not to add fuel to this speculation but in reading Gail's letter of thanks (when she was initially pulled off the title) she does not thank Dan Dido when she goes thru her list of thanks to various staff at DC. Maybe that has to do with him not actually supporting her decision to include this aspect of the story? Or maybe it just has to do with the nature of her firing (via email).

 

I think Alysia has been pretty integrated as much of a roomate would be. Not as much as say Marvel integrates Peter Parker's friends and family, but DC doesnt seem to do this as much, so the fact that Alysia has dated Barbara's brother, met her mom, interacted with the whole Gordon family in various ways all while Barbara keeps running out the do to go to Batgirl stuff seems organic enough to me.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Plain and Simple - COMICS ARE ON LIFE SUPPORT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A NOSTALGIC FUTURE!

 

 

This this reason I left moderns, just too many titles that are trying to be

hey looky me shock topics, and if it's not shocking enough let's put peanut butter on it!

 

Seems like they are literally in a contest to who can get to a hot button the quickest.

 

I am counting down the seconds to Batman giving Robin cleveland steamers

and Catwoman playing 2 girls one cup with Commissioner Gordon...

 

Not to go all JC on you, but this craap is colossally boring!!!

 

 

 

I couldn't disagree with this more. I think we are entering a new age of comics. The films have shown that comics are a viable medium that can be tapped for quality stories.

 

If you also look at the sales of books on Comixology it is staggering. I think we are in an age where comics are being forced to be told at a high level with stories that would interest the masses.

[miraclemet]

It sounds like some folks posting here have not read the interview with writer Gail Simone that Dan/Donut provided. Here are some excerpts:

 

 

GS: Well, yeah, I want to do this right, representation is important. No one wants stereotypes or tokens. We want believable characters we can care about, that we want to know more about. The nice thing is, with Alysia, she’s been in the book since issue one, readers already know her and care about her. They’ve been asking for more of her story, so I think they are already rooting for her. It makes me happy—I have met so many trans readers over the years. I hope they love Alysia as much as we do.

 

... But there’s a large LGBTQ readership in comics, the audience is hugely diverse. It’s wonderful. Our common language is nerdhood. I love that. We may come from different continents, but dammit, we can recite the Green Lantern Oath!

 

... Absolutely, I have been speaking with trans writers and bloggers and friends about this for quite some time, and they’ve been keeping it confidential, for which I’m eternally grateful. I can’t thank them enough for their generosity and kindness and insight, particularly blogger Natalie Reed, who is a hardcore comics fan and a wonderful writer, who gave endlessly of her time to help us get this right.

 

 

great pull quotes point5

 

I like to think of all the different characters as different tools in a tool box. Some writers have a very thin tool box and all their characters sound the same, and arent very distinguishable from each other in any substantive way. Gail has always seemed to me (from Birds of Prey to Suicide Squad, to Batgirl) to have a pretty deep toolbox filled with a range of character types to fill her universe with. Alysia is just another of those tools.

[Prince Namor]

If I was reading a novel and a character in it revealed themselves to be transgendered, I wouldn't think anything of it except for how it might fit within the context of the story.

Why limit yourself in comics to the type of stories you can tell and characters you can use? Mainstream Comics are limited enough as it is.

 

Really, other than an obsessive collecting habit, I just can't imagine still reading Amazing Spider-man now at my age. I read it for 20 years. 20 years after I can't possibly believe they've done anything really worth my time to go back and read. It's limited in what stories it's going to tell. There's only so much that can be done.

 

That's why death became a big thing comics. Where else can you go?

Alternative Universe stories. Elseworlds. Where else can you go?

Unknown offspring of characters, and rediscovered clones. Where else can you go?

What is it people want? We have this corporate PROPERTY that we can't change, what can we do to make it seem exciting?

 

If Seinfeld never ended and was still putting out 22 episodes a year and none of the characters had changed would it still be worth watching?

You can't sustain that level of creativity by churning it out month after month, year after year.

 

Comics are just searching for something, anything to be relevant. To tell stories they haven't told before.

Even if they were still doing the same stories they were doing in the 70's, most of us wouldn't be reading them now anyway.

[krighton]

Seinfeld had a good 2 or 3 more years left in it...missing your point entirely of course.

[Sal]

It sounds like some folks posting here have not read the interview with writer Gail Simone that Dan/Donut provided. Here are some excerpts:

 

 

GS: Well, yeah, I want to do this right, representation is important. No one wants stereotypes or tokens. We want believable characters we can care about, that we want to know more about. The nice thing is, with Alysia, she’s been in the book since issue one, readers already know her and care about her. They’ve been asking for more of her story, so I think they are already rooting for her. It makes me happy—I have met so many trans readers over the years. I hope they love Alysia as much as we do.

 

... But there’s a large LGBTQ readership in comics, the audience is hugely diverse. It’s wonderful. Our common language is nerdhood. I love that. We may come from different continents, but dammit, we can recite the Green Lantern Oath!

 

... Absolutely, I have been speaking with trans writers and bloggers and friends about this for quite some time, and they’ve been keeping it confidential, for which I’m eternally grateful. I can’t thank them enough for their generosity and kindness and insight, particularly blogger Natalie Reed, who is a hardcore comics fan and a wonderful writer, who gave endlessly of her time to help us get this right.

 

 

Dammit PointFive, this doesn't fit the narrative some people are trying to establish! It's all just a ruse, didn't you know? Truly there can't be any honest rationale to create this type of background for the character!

 

 

 

If you don't read the book, at least try - just try - to give the writer the benefit of the doubt before you ascribe your own prejudices to the origin of this character's recent "reveal". It's a lot less stressful that way