Define999 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Well, we can agree to disagree…. I respect your opinion and realize its probably the opinion of 99% of collectors. But hear me out for a bit….. The comic book culture is simply that… a culture. Setting aside the common vernacular of collecting for a bit… if you look up “variant” or “reprint” in the dictionary both meanings can be applied to foreign books and both descriptions are accurate from a purely definition standpoint. But, that’s without the layer of culture applied over the top… What’s the interesting thing about “culture”…. The comic book collecting culture like all cultures contains its own vernacular, meanings, history, classifications, you name it. Everything we do can be described as culture, and as such has evolved over time. Instances where culture has changed or shifted in my opinion. Grading standards Classifications Meanings Lingo Restoration standards Values You name it all of these things have changed or evolved since collecting comics books came about! Drop a dealer from the 70’s selling a NM book into todays market and watch his NM book become a VF. Watch him cry and complain that that isnt right, his book is a NM! Drop a kid from the 50’s who taped up his spines for support on his Action 1 into todays market and watch him be beaten up about it and then watch him cry and complain about how he was only trying to preserve his book and he did nothing wrong because that’s what everyone did when their spines got weak? Ask a excited collector from the 70’s about his hulk 180 back before their was such a thing as cameo or 1st full appearance how he feels today after he traded his 181 for a 180 because he wanted Wolvies first appearance? Drop him into todays market and then ask him about evolution of culture…. He might have a thing or 2 to say about it? Ask metarog how during his early days in Florida working at a comics shop they would sometimes get early La Prensa keys in and they would throw them in quarter bins… when just the other day I bid on a La Prensa Iron man #1 that was falling apart with tape on the spine and pages that were nice and creamy and I got outbid because I wouldn’t go higher than 100 bucks! Wait, is that value evolving? Everything evolves…. nothing is concrete as far as I am concerned….. I am a shades of grey guy, black and white exists only on the fringes. Most everything is grey….. Now I agree with you on the Fillipino books… they are pretty much exact in how they reprinted the original American book. But the current classification does not do most foreigns any justice at all…. The cultural and traditional comic book collecting classifications that we know of today concerning variant versus reprint were solidified in a world where foreign books were not on anyones radar. No one was thinking about foreign books and the percentages here in America at that time were miniscule. Knowledge about them was nill! Even current agreed upon cultural standards like CGC get it absolutely wrong when classifying foreign books. The Marvel Conan #1 being a good example…. This is not Conans first appearance, he first appeared in a Mexican comic in the late 50’s as Conan believe it or not. The notation on the CGC case is wrong and needs what? “Evolving” “changing” wait no concrete? Id pay money to be a fly on the wall when someone submits the “Cuentos de abuelito #8” Conans real first appearance in comics to CGC. What are they going to do? Oh wait you guessed it… evolve. Foreign comic books specifically the ones that used American licensing are to complex to just be given the known traditional American classification of reprint. Putting the Fillipino books aside for a bit… Foreign publishers changed a whole hell of a lot and much is original. Altered art/altered coloring/completely original covers/altered stories because of translation/altered continuity/mismatched covers and insides or vice versa/Completely new and original stories/Cover swipes combining different publishers/packaged with toys, stickers, medals in ways American publishers have never dreamed/ etc. etc. So, in a nutshell ….. I respect your opinion, id like you to respect mine and many within my niche of collecting. In my opinion calling many foreign books “reprints” does not adequately represent or classify them. My ideas and those of many of my friends do not line up with 99% of the comic collecting community. And you know what, thats ok. Until a more suitable term like Hector says in another thread, “edition” or something else evolves im going to continue calling them “foreign variants” or simply “foreigns” but I will not call them reprints. And if 99% of the comic collecting community choose to disregard our opinion and the countless upon countless man hours my friends and I spend evolving our expertise/creating online publications/sourcing and absorbing every bit of knowledge we can about these books….. then so be it… Now can we just get back to talking about the Filipino books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant Manatee Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 A very insightful and thought-provoking post, thank you for taking the time to compose it. I actually agree with you that "foreign edition" or "foreign variant" feels like a more accurate term for these books than "reprint". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 A very insightful and thought-provoking post, thank you for taking the time to compose it. I actually agree with you that "foreign edition" or "foreign variant" feels like a more accurate term for these books than "reprint". Thank you Manatee.... (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chespirito Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Here you go guys I like this....very very very Cool, very cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Yea, its a great copy! (thumbs u And its existence means a #1 could exist as well which also be very cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjrjr Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Well, we can agree to disagree…. I respect your opinion and realize its probably the opinion of 99% of collectors. But hear me out for a bit….. The comic book culture is simply that… a culture. Setting aside the common vernacular of collecting for a bit… if you look up “variant” or “reprint” in the dictionary both meanings can be applied to foreign books and both descriptions are accurate from a purely definition standpoint. But, that’s without the layer of culture applied over the top… What’s the interesting thing about “culture”…. The comic book collecting culture like all cultures contains its own vernacular, meanings, history, classifications, you name it. Everything we do can be described as culture, and as such has evolved over time. Instances where culture has changed or shifted in my opinion. Grading standards Classifications Meanings Lingo Restoration standards Values You name it all of these things have changed or evolved since collecting comics books came about! Drop a dealer from the 70’s selling a NM book into todays market and watch his NM book become a VF. Watch him cry and complain that that isnt right, his book is a NM! Drop a kid from the 50’s who taped up his spines for support on his Action 1 into todays market and watch him be beaten up about it and then watch him cry and complain about how he was only trying to preserve his book and he did nothing wrong because that’s what everyone did when their spines got weak? Ask a excited collector from the 70’s about his hulk 180 back before their was such a thing as cameo or 1st full appearance how he feels today after he traded his 181 for a 180 because he wanted Wolvies first appearance? Drop him into todays market and then ask him about evolution of culture…. He might have a thing or 2 to say about it? Ask metarog how during his early days in Florida working at a comics shop they would sometimes get early La Prensa keys in and they would throw them in quarter bins… when just the other day I bid on a La Prensa Iron man #1 that was falling apart with tape on the spine and pages that were nice and creamy and I got outbid because I wouldn’t go higher than 100 bucks! Wait, is that value evolving? Everything evolves…. nothing is concrete as far as I am concerned….. I am a shades of grey guy, black and white exists only on the fringes. Most everything is grey….. Now I agree with you on the Fillipino books… they are pretty much exact in how they reprinted the original American book. But the current classification does not do most foreigns any justice at all…. The cultural and traditional comic book collecting classifications that we know of today concerning variant versus reprint were solidified in a world where foreign books were not on anyones radar. No one was thinking about foreign books and the percentages here in America at that time were miniscule. Knowledge about them was nill! Even current agreed upon cultural standards like CGC get it absolutely wrong when classifying foreign books. The Marvel Conan #1 being a good example…. This is not Conans first appearance, he first appeared in a Mexican comic in the late 50’s as Conan believe it or not. The notation on the CGC case is wrong and needs what? “Evolving” “changing” wait no concrete? Id pay money to be a fly on the wall when someone submits the “Cuentos de abuelito #8” Conans real first appearance in comics to CGC. What are they going to do? Oh wait you guessed it… evolve. Foreign comic books specifically the ones that used American licensing are to complex to just be given the known traditional American classification of reprint. Putting the Fillipino books aside for a bit… Foreign publishers changed a whole hell of a lot and much is original. Altered art/altered coloring/completely original covers/altered stories because of translation/altered continuity/mismatched covers and insides or vice versa/Completely new and original stories/Cover swipes combining different publishers/packaged with toys, stickers, medals in ways American publishers have never dreamed/ etc. etc. So, in a nutshell ….. I respect your opinion, id like you to respect mine and many within my niche of collecting. In my opinion calling many foreign books “reprints” does not adequately represent or classify them. My ideas and those of many of my friends do not line up with 99% of the comic collecting community. And you know what, thats ok. Until a more suitable term like Hector says in another thread, “edition” or something else evolves im going to continue calling them “foreign variants” or simply “foreigns” but I will not call them reprints. And if 99% of the comic collecting community choose to disregard our opinion and the countless upon countless man hours my friends and I spend evolving our expertise/creating online publications/sourcing and absorbing every bit of knowledge we can about these books….. then so be it… Now can we just get back to talking about the Filipino books? I feel we are discussing the Philippine comic books. I do respect your opinion. I'll continue to use "foreign edition" (not "foreign variants") when referring to the Canadian and UK printings of the Marvel comics. Printings that occurred simultaneously with the US printing. (Yes, I'm aware of the arguments concerning which issues rolled of the press first, etc.) These are different in that they didn't print these with the original US issues, so I feel they deserve a different designation. I'll continue to use the designation that most of the comic collecting community has debated and agreed upon. I'm not sure what your researching these comics has to do with the proper designation of these issues however, unless you have uncovered that these issues were printed alongside their original US counterparts, which I have never heard before. Regardless, I do appreciate the research and enthusiasm that is put into finding out more about these foreign comics. Let us agree to disagree on this. So, another question. Has more than one copy of any of these issues been found? For example, is there more than one Star Wars 1 known to exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveraboundingMint Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Here you go guys Superb and unbelievably quality material. That avengers bk shown much earlier led me to prejudge and belittle these books but having seen this and the SubMariner I could now understand Iscomics's interest in them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lscomics Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 So, another question. Has more than one copy of any of these issues been found? For example, is there more than one Star Wars 1 known to exist? There are maybe four or five books at the most that we've seen more than a single copy. They are proving to be rare beyond belief. Just based on the climate conditions and lack of storage supplies I'm willing to bet there are quite a few that were printed of which not a single copy remains in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 It's not a matter of how desirable they are. Plain and simple they are versions of a product with slight differences, be it the cover price, advertisements etc. which is a variation of the original. Hence a variant version. Filipino is not the correct term for the language spoken there, it's Tagalog. The books are in English though. I entirely agree here. Tim knows his stuff, and in this case, I am inclined to call them "variants" as well, because they are later date reprints (no matter if random) in English language in the exact form of the original edition. So, as far as collecting goes, they are similar to a UK Pence copy or a Canadian Price variant, with the additional difference they have a later print date, and new cover ads. They are very fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 (edited) Well, we can agree to disagree…. I respect your opinion and realize its probably the opinion of 99% of collectors. But hear me out for a bit….. The comic book culture is simply that… a culture. Setting aside the common vernacular of collecting for a bit… if you look up “variant” or “reprint” in the dictionary both meanings can be applied to foreign books and both descriptions are accurate from a purely definition standpoint. But, that’s without the layer of culture applied over the top… What’s the interesting thing about “culture”…. The comic book collecting culture like all cultures contains its own vernacular, meanings, history, classifications, you name it. Everything we do can be described as culture, and as such has evolved over time. Instances where culture has changed or shifted in my opinion. Grading standards Classifications Meanings Lingo Restoration standards Values You name it all of these things have changed or evolved since collecting comics books came about! Drop a dealer from the 70’s selling a NM book into todays market and watch his NM book become a VF. Watch him cry and complain that that isnt right, his book is a NM! Drop a kid from the 50’s who taped up his spines for support on his Action 1 into todays market and watch him be beaten up about it and then watch him cry and complain about how he was only trying to preserve his book and he did nothing wrong because that’s what everyone did when their spines got weak? Ask a excited collector from the 70’s about his hulk 180 back before their was such a thing as cameo or 1st full appearance how he feels today after he traded his 181 for a 180 because he wanted Wolvies first appearance? Drop him into todays market and then ask him about evolution of culture…. He might have a thing or 2 to say about it? Ask metarog how during his early days in Florida working at a comics shop they would sometimes get early La Prensa keys in and they would throw them in quarter bins… when just the other day I bid on a La Prensa Iron man #1 that was falling apart with tape on the spine and pages that were nice and creamy and I got outbid because I wouldn’t go higher than 100 bucks! Wait, is that value evolving? Everything evolves…. nothing is concrete as far as I am concerned….. I am a shades of grey guy, black and white exists only on the fringes. Most everything is grey….. Now I agree with you on the Fillipino books… they are pretty much exact in how they reprinted the original American book. But the current classification does not do most foreigns any justice at all…. The cultural and traditional comic book collecting classifications that we know of today concerning variant versus reprint were solidified in a world where foreign books were not on anyones radar. No one was thinking about foreign books and the percentages here in America at that time were miniscule. Knowledge about them was nill! Even current agreed upon cultural standards like CGC get it absolutely wrong when classifying foreign books. The Marvel Conan #1 being a good example…. This is not Conans first appearance, he first appeared in a Mexican comic in the late 50’s as Conan believe it or not. The notation on the CGC case is wrong and needs what? “Evolving” “changing” wait no concrete? Id pay money to be a fly on the wall when someone submits the “Cuentos de abuelito #8” Conans real first appearance in comics to CGC. What are they going to do? Oh wait you guessed it… evolve. Foreign comic books specifically the ones that used American licensing are to complex to just be given the known traditional American classification of reprint. Putting the Fillipino books aside for a bit… Foreign publishers changed a whole hell of a lot and much is original. Altered art/altered coloring/completely original covers/altered stories because of translation/altered continuity/mismatched covers and insides or vice versa/Completely new and original stories/Cover swipes combining different publishers/packaged with toys, stickers, medals in ways American publishers have never dreamed/ etc. etc. So, in a nutshell ….. I respect your opinion, id like you to respect mine and many within my niche of collecting. In my opinion calling many foreign books “reprints” does not adequately represent or classify them. My ideas and those of many of my friends do not line up with 99% of the comic collecting community. And you know what, thats ok. Until a more suitable term like Hector says in another thread, “edition” or something else evolves im going to continue calling them “foreign variants” or simply “foreigns” but I will not call them reprints. And if 99% of the comic collecting community choose to disregard our opinion and the countless upon countless man hours my friends and I spend evolving our expertise/creating online publications/sourcing and absorbing every bit of knowledge we can about these books….. then so be it… Now can we just get back to talking about the Filipino books? I feel we are discussing the Philippine comic books. I do respect your opinion. I'll continue to use "foreign edition" (not "foreign variants") when referring to the Canadian and UK printings of the Marvel comics. Printings that occurred simultaneously with the US printing. (Yes, I'm aware of the arguments concerning which issues rolled of the press first, etc.) These are different in that they didn't print these with the original US issues, so I feel they deserve a different designation. I'll continue to use the designation that most of the comic collecting community has debated and agreed upon. I'm not sure what your researching these comics has to do with the proper designation of these issues however, unless you have uncovered that these issues were printed alongside their original US counterparts, which I have never heard before. Regardless, I do appreciate the research and enthusiasm that is put into finding out more about these foreign comics. Let us agree to disagree on this. So, another question. Has more than one copy of any of these issues been found? For example, is there more than one Star Wars 1 known to exist? ummm I was responding to this This general statement…. If these comics were printed again in another country today, regardless of how they are packaged or whatnot they would still be considered foreign reprints. It is the term that has been used by the comic collecting community for a long time and just because variants are in vogue today with publishers doesn't mean the comic collecting community should not be more precise in how they label the issues. (It kind of reminds me how everyone is labelled a terrorist now by the news media.) I perceived this as being all foreign comics in general? I'm not sure what your researching these comics has to do with the proper designation of these issues however, This simply has to do with “weight” Im not coming from my point of view with a fly by night attitude. Im not some troll trying to start a fight, which unfortunately happens often here at the CGC forums. Im not coming from a monetary angle either... I actually prefer to trade in foreigns and not sell. When Bob Overstreet or Geppi talk comics their opinions matter because they carry “weight”…. Now, I am not saying I or my friends have even a …….01 percent of the “weight” of those giants. But, when it comes to foreigns I can say we have probably combined put more energy as American collectors into researching /combining/ making people aware/ data mining/ sourcing etc. etc. than anyone else here at the CGC forums or possibly even in the country. The reason I bring it up is simply to bring awareness to my qualifications concerning the "niche" of foreigns, which then informs my opinion on this matter.... Make sense? But, thats neither here nor there….. You have every right to believe how you believe, and I do agree with you in a traditional way. And thank you for being so polite in this discussion. To often these things devolve into nastiness and that hasnt happened! Wait, I have another opinion... the danger in being to black and white is.... if as a collector you perceive proper designation as a closed book, or a debate that has already been won? Than you run the risk of being that dealer I talked about earlier with his 1970’s NM book, or the kid who traded his hulk 181 for a 180 and is still bitter to this day for the (cameo/1st full appearance) fiasco….. there isn’t any changing your mind which is perfectly fine. In fact I thank you sir! This thread has allowed me to put all my thought and ideas together in a more coherent way than before. Im having this same debate on other forums and I am not so nearly as concise with my responses. So moving on…. The Star Wars #1 NB book scan that is on comiccollectorlives’s database is the same book as what is in metarog’s STL gallery. Only one scan have we ever seen online that we can find. Never have I found a record of sale for this book either…. It is quite possibly sitting in someone’s long box with them not even realizing how rare and good conditioned it is for a NB book. It is quite possibly like I stated earlier the rarest SW#1 on the planet. Rarer than any 35cent variant…. Their are issues we know of where there are 2 copies we can prove exist because of scans on the internet. Unfortunately I have to go at the moment so maybe Tim can fill you in on those…. And ask Tim to show his scans of the HOM he has and his amazing goodwill bats 237 which I think we know of 2 copies… but Tims is better… Edited September 26, 2013 by Define999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lscomics Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 There were also books done for National Bookstore and Goodwill Bookstore in the Philippines. The Filipino books are incredibly hard to find based on a few factors. 1) Print runs were not high. 2) The paper quality is lower than normal for Bronze Age books. 3) The climate conditions in the Philippines are not conducive to preserving paper products, staples either for that matter. 4) The majority of collectors there regarded (and still do) the Filipino versions as substandard and have no great interest in them so they were generally not cared for very well. Here's pics of the National and Goodwill Bookstore editions that I've been able to get my hand on so far. As far as books that we have seen more than one copy of, there are four of them pictured in my initial post in this thread. Here's the list: 1) Action Comics #411 (saw another on ebay) 2) Avengers #96 (Define999 has one too) 3) Batman #237 (there's a lower grade copy pictured at STL) 4) World's Finest #210 (saw another on ebay) 5) Tarzan #205 (Define999 has one and a Filipino contact I spoke to has one) That's it. We haven't seen duplicates of any others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaillant Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 @rjrjr: I agree with you "foreign edition" is a better term for the UK and Canadian, but these are de facto "price variants", as they are in each and every aspect the same of US editions (not interested if they were printed simultaneously or at a slight later date), and thus the term "variants" is acceptable. With the Philippines books, they are clearly foreign edtions, but in English, so they are more close to the original, as they have not been edited in terms of dialogues, not translated, and I would call them "foreign reprints". All the others (translated and adapted) are foreign editions, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rommin Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The funny thing is, for the longest time, I was ticked off that I had this weird book in my Joker run! I know better thanks to these boards. I think I bought my Jokers either before the movie in '89 or just after so that's how long it's been in my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant Manatee Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 This seller on eBay from the Philippines has several for sale: Dekada Collectibles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metarog Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 I found a pic of one more Philippines edition on my computer from who knows when... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 (edited) All the others (translated and adapted) are foreign editions, IMO. So you agree with me Claudio that the traditional American category/classification idea concerning foreigns in that some would call lets say a Italian 300 a foreign reprint is misleading or even wrong? And, that a different classification is needed or should evolve? ie: foreign edition, or foreign, or something else? Edited September 26, 2013 by Define999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 This seller on eBay from the Philippines has several for sale: Dekada Collectibles Yea, he is cool, and the most consistent EBAY-er from the Phillapines to offer these books for sale. We have talked to him, and we have sent him wantlists but he doesn't really respond much except to say these books are extremely rare and he is actively looking for more. I have bought form him and if you are interested in owning a copy of one of these books a good place to start for sure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 I found a pic of one more Philippines edition on my computer from who knows when... Awesome! I have never seen that title represented before? I think we need to come up with a master list of all known titles and issues at some point. We all have lists bit we can combine them to get a better understanding of breadth and time frame maybe? You guys down with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Define999 Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 (edited) Crazy... I actually have quite a few National Bookstore books! More than I thought at least.... And, believe it or not I have some alamar bookstore editions that I mistook for NB's because the price boxes were completely blank similar to the NB's? Confusing... ill get pics of those in a bit... But as it stands this is what I got as far as NB... Hulk 187 (going to Tim in a bit) Fantastic Four 166 Fantastic Four 167 Iron Fist 4 Fantastic Four 168 Daredevil 134 Ghosts 53 Marvel Double feature 14 Swamp Thing 14 Batman 270 Action 436 Hulk 196 Xmen 100 Marvel double feature 13 Marvel double feature 15 Daredevil 132 Marvel greatest comic 64 Worlds Finest 211 Brave and the bold 100 GI Combat 156 Weird western tales 26 Weird war tales 30 Xmen 101 Xmen 98 Tarzan 207 Alamar and Goodwill to come.... Edited September 27, 2013 by Define999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solarcadet Posted September 27, 2013 Share Posted September 27, 2013 A very insightful and thought-provoking post, thank you for taking the time to compose it. I actually agree with you that "foreign edition" or "foreign variant" feels like a more accurate term for these books than "reprint". +1 (thumbs u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
