Those Comics in Your Basement?

[mintcollector]

Actually, the article is pretty much accurate. It used poor specific examples, particularly sans details... but that's because speaking in broader, albeit more accurate terms, might be confusing for the non-specialist.

 

Using high-extremes to bolster one's bias is hardly new... Overstreet does it every year. Each year the guide provides charts showing how much your issue went up over last year... in 9.2. But this year for instance, the vast majority of comics went down in value for books 8.0 and below... only rising in the highest grades. 99.9% of all exisiting copies can drop in value, yet proponents will claim another "banner year" based on sales records of a few uber-keys or uber-grades.

 

I think the article is more about average people's perception of comic values anyway. The article seems to take issue with the barrage of stories showing folks how valuable comics are by bringing out examples of the rarest and most valuable finds out there. It's like suggesting all old books are valuable because original Audubon portfolios are.

 

In the 70s & 80s average Americans gave away or threw away small fortunes in old comics because there was no easy way for most to imagine they had any value. Now the media has gone overboard in the opposite direction, leading everyone to believe they have a fortune in every "old" comic book.

 

As for your old comics in the basement being worthless... well, probably not. But at 5 or 10 cents apiece they are only slightly above it.

 

+1

 

[seanfingh]

Actually, the article is pretty much accurate. It used poor specific examples, particularly sans details... but that's because speaking in broader, albeit more accurate terms, might be confusing for the non-specialist.

 

Using high-extremes to bolster one's bias is hardly new... Overstreet does it every year. Each year the guide provides charts showing how much your issue went up over last year... in 9.2. But this year for instance, the vast majority of comics went down in value for books 8.0 and below... only rising in the highest grades. 99.9% of all exisiting copies can drop in value, yet proponents will claim another "banner year" based on sales records of a few uber-keys or uber-grades.

 

I think the article is more about average people's perception of comic values anyway. The article seems to take issue with the barrage of stories showing folks how valuable comics are by bringing out examples of the rarest and most valuable finds out there. It's like suggesting all old books are valuable because original Audubon portfolios are.

 

In the 70s & 80s average Americans gave away or threw away small fortunes in old comics because there was no easy way for most to imagine they had any value. Now the media has gone overboard in the opposite direction, leading everyone to believe they have a fortune in every "old" comic book.

 

As for your old comics in the basement being worthless... well, probably not. But at 5 or 10 cents apiece they are only slightly above it.

 

+1

 

-1

 

This article is just as bad as the "all comics are valuable" articles. How hard is it to say that, for collector comics, value is a factor of condition, demand and scarcity? That would give a layman an accurate basis for understanding. Describing the price curve of UXM 94 in 9.8 is less than useless, it is misleading.

[AlexanderM]

Sounds like he was collecting modern comics..

 

And for his information according to GPA Hulk181 has increased steadily for many years..

 

I assume he is talking about high grade books, and if so he is correct. Far from increasing steadily, high grade bronze books have taken a huge dive. Here is GPA for 9.8 Hulk 181:

 

 

Hehehehe.. now THAT is selective choice of information.

 

9.8 is pretty much the ONLY grade that has fallen.

 

Here is the price development of grades 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 9.2, and 9,4. All significantly increased.

 

9.4

 

 

 

The 9.4 chart indicates the book has been trending downward since it's peak around 2009

 

Nope.. Again not.

 

It only looks like that on the thumb nail. If you click on it to see the entire period you can see that this is also not the case.

 

Ah, I should have noticed the chart was truncated. Still interesting that going back to 2006, a 9.2 would have seen a better return than a 9.4, so as was mentioned, there does seem to be a price point for BA keys where the demand drops off pretty quickly, which now seems to be around 2K or a tad higher.

 

I don't think the figures show any price point for H181 at which it stops or drops.

 

9.4 for instance has broken $3000 and is increasing.

 

9.6 has broken $4000 and is stable.

 

9.2 has broken $2000 (about $2300 right now) and strongly increasing.

 

There was a shard drop in 2009 with the financial crisis, but that can be observed for silver and gold titles too. This has come back and it looks like H181 is going steady upwards.

 

My guess is that prices for 9.0 and up will steadily increase in the coming years. When a 9.0 reaches $5000 and a 8.5 reaches $3-4.000 then collectors will look for the lower rates which will be below $2000.

 

Wolverine is for Bronze age what Spider-man in for the silver age and Supes is for the gold age. And now Bronze may seem recent but as times goes by.. the 13 year difference between AF15 and H181 will seem like nothing.

 

 

I meant that the increases seem to be slower. While for some collectors it's about getting the nicest copy they can, for most there is price threshold at which point they will take a lesser copy rather than chase the higher grade. This matters less with SA keys, as the drop off of copies available in a given grade going up the ladder is often greater than the number of collectors who decide they don't want to pay the higher price, but with Bronze and especially later books, as prices rise overall, it's possible that the demand ends up lagging the available copies at the previous price differential and while there still may be increases in price, the percentage gap between two grades will shrink.

 

Those numbers indicate that a 9.6 is currently worth about 75-80% more than a 9.2, where I'm going to guess that it was probably somewhere between 200 and 300% more six or seven years ago.

 

While in years the gap between AF 15 and IH 181 will continue to feel smaller, in terms of availability in won't. There are currently more unrestored 9.0 or better IH 181s on the census than unrestored AF #15s in any grade, and more than 12X as many in 9.0 and above as there are AF #15s in at least 7.0. True, the census isn't an exact tool for comparing total populations, but I think most would agree that a smaller percentage of extant IH 181s in most every grade have been slabbed compared to AF #15s. The volume of raw copies that still show up on ebay is a testament to that.

 

I'm not going to guess which direction prices will go in the next decade, but the decline of 9.8 prices and the compression of 9.x price ratios should give some caution. If the price differentials continue to compress between the various 9.x grades, that could eventually lead to a decline in prices going down the ladder.

 

I agree with most of what you say here.

 

I see no signs in the actual data that price increases are slowing. And certainly not that declines are on the agenda. Rather the price increases in most grades (besides 9.8) has increased over time.

 

Looking at the price development for most grades the incline is getting steeper over time. So there is no sign of a tapering out.

 

It is of course true that there are more H181s than AF15s. There are on the other hand also far more AF15s than most important DC key and AF15 is still able to out price almost all of them.

 

Wolverine is perhaps the only superhero that can rival Spider-man for popularity. This explains AF15s prices relative to many DCs. But it also explains why H181 could be the best chance to rival AF15 prices in the future.

 

Right now the larger supply of H181 and less time to have had price increases is keeping H181 from reaching even a fraction of AF15 prices. However, I think the gap in prices, between the first appearances of the two most popular super heroes to appear in the past many decades, to narrow in the years to come. I don't actually think that H181 will become more expensive than AF15 or even be priced the same - despite the somewhat similar popularity levels. This is due to the larger supply of H181. This could change if Wolverine becomes more popular as time goes by. If their popularity remains as now then I think H181 will lessen the gap to AF15 over time, but not be quite on par over overtake it - mainly due to the larger supply.

 

PS. I am certainly not saying that all comics or even the ones that are now considered keys will forever increase in price or avoid declines. Walking dead I think might be a blink in time and like the TV show "Lost" it might be extremely popular,, but disappear when it disappears... And who know if Thanos, Deadpool, Ultron, Luke Cage, Punisher and so on and on and on.. will be more than a little spike in time at best... But I think chances are good that we can add Spider-man and Wolverine to the group of Superman and Batman... in other words the titles that are very likely to stand the test of time and become true key titles and superheroes in a historic sense.

[Bio-Rupp]

Can't wait for all the books from Golden to Modern to go back to their original cover price.

 

That means all my $1 boxes will double and triple in value

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

[VintageComics]

Actually, the article is pretty much accurate. It used poor specific examples, particularly sans details... but that's because speaking in broader, albeit more accurate terms, might be confusing for the non-specialist.

 

Using high-extremes to bolster one's bias is hardly new... Overstreet does it every year. Each year the guide provides charts showing how much your issue went up over last year... in 9.2. But this year for instance, the vast majority of comics went down in value for books 8.0 and below... only rising in the highest grades. 99.9% of all exisiting copies can drop in value, yet proponents will claim another "banner year" based on sales records of a few uber-keys or uber-grades.

 

I think the article is more about average people's perception of comic values anyway. The article seems to take issue with the barrage of stories showing folks how valuable comics are by bringing out examples of the rarest and most valuable finds out there. It's like suggesting all old books are valuable because original Audubon portfolios are.

 

In the 70s & 80s average Americans gave away or threw away small fortunes in old comics because there was no easy way for most to imagine they had any value. Now the media has gone overboard in the opposite direction, leading everyone to believe they have a fortune in every "old" comic book.

 

As for your old comics in the basement being worthless... well, probably not. But at 5 or 10 cents apiece they are only slightly above it.

 

+1

 

-1

 

This article is just as bad as the "all comics are valuable" articles. How hard is it to say that, for collector comics, value is a factor of condition, demand and scarcity? That would give a layman an accurate basis for understanding. Describing the price curve of UXM 94 in 9.8 is less than useless, it is misleading.

 

It's ridiculous considering an X-men 94 was a $1 book, then a $5 book, then a $50 a book and even a $500 for a long time before it became a $1000 book.

 

The fact that multiple copies are selling north of $8K is impressive.

 

Dumb article with no perspective.

 

And FWIW, Walt is a pretty sharp dude. Taking people's quotes out of context to make them look dumb is ...well...dumb.

 

 

[drbanner]

At the beginning of 2009 when 9.8 prices of Hulk 181 peaked, there were 16 copies in 9.8 and 203 copies in 9.4. At the end of 2010 there were 38 copies in 9.8, and 228 copies in 9.4. Almost as many 9.8's were added to the census as 9.4's over that period, but percentage-wise the 9.8 population just exploded due to pressing.

 

Top Census BA books like H 181 and GL 76 have turned out to be horrible investments, but drop one or two grades underneath that and they have been fairly solid.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Sounds like he was collecting modern comics..

 

And for his information according to GPA Hulk181 has increased steadily for many years..

 

I assume he is talking about high grade books, and if so he is correct. Far from increasing steadily, high grade bronze books have taken a huge dive. Here is GPA for 9.8 Hulk 181:

 

 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Anyone else remember when TOD #1 and Swamp Thing #1 among others were selling for close to $3000 in 9.8? GPA holds the truth.

 

No.

 

GPA holds snapshots in time that MUST be correctly interpreted, or it loses all meaning. GPA doesn't hold truth, it holds data: truth comes with context.

 

In this case, the market had been starved of high grade material since the late 80's/early 90's, because those who bought such material refused to sell until and unless they could get the premium they felt such material deserved. When the first few examples of such material finally...ahem...materialized on the market, the market had a feeding frenzy, and just *had* to pay whatever it took to obtain it, because "OH NO, what if there AREN'T any more examples of TOD #1 in 9.8 out there, and this is my only chance to own one????"

 

Of course, that wasn't true, several economic laws kicked in (as they always do), the owners of potential 9.8 copies saw the premium, and sent their copies in to be a part of the gravy train, finally. The wiser among us saw "the first one" sell for $X, then the second sell for $X-Y%, and so on, and knew the time to act was now, before the prices settled. (For the record, I did spectacularly well on a few items, but completely missed the boat...New Mutants #87, for example, and Harbinger #1 too...on others.)

 

The really wisest among us sold at the peaks, then scooped them back up at their lows. But the point is, those "highs" were, are, and always will be ARTIFICIAL. They do not, and never have, represented the actual values of these books in any way.

 

The very same exact thing happened in coins. PCGS opened in 1986, NGC in 1987. By 1989, the ultra high grade coins that collectors had been holding back from the market since the 50's and 60's were finally getting the premiums their owners felt that they should, and which the general market had been deprived for a long time, leading to intense psychological demand. So, the first few coins graded MS65 or better by the services were getting monstrous prices..."OMG, 1882 Morgan Dollar in MS65??? PLEASE, TAKE MY $2,000!!! (of course, coin collectors would never say such a thing as "OMG", but you get the point.)

 

The 1882 Morgan Dollar in MS65 is a $450-$500 coin. Those who paid $2,000 "just to have one" have never recovered, ever, in the 25 years since.

 

That's because the 1882 Morgan Dollar in MS65 was never WORTH $2,000 to begin with. Once the market "figured out" how absolutely rare it was in comparison to the rest of the market, it settled in quite nicely at its actual value.

 

What happened to comics is the same exact thing. While the economy has *some* bearing on the situation, the vast majority of the drop in the last 5 years mirrored what happened in coins...albeit, much more slowly, as there is only one legitimate comic grading company...to a "t".

 

As soon as the amount of submissions levels off...that is, there simply aren't anymore multiples of census copies out there yet to be graded...then the ACTUAL value of these items, relative to actual supply and actual demand, will be established firmly, if it hasn't happened already in the vast majority of cases.

 

For someone to publish an article that says "Look, comics are worthless, look what happened to this X-Men #94! It was once worth $26,000, and now it's $8-$10,000! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!" with absolutely ZERO context is foolish ignorance at BEST, and journalistic malpractice at worst.

 

It is, however, an EXCELLENT example of why every one of us should not take what we read at face value.

[jaybes]

Sounds like he was collecting modern comics..

 

And for his information according to GPA Hulk181 has increased steadily for many years..

 

I assume he is talking about high grade books, and if so he is correct. Far from increasing steadily, high grade bronze books have taken a huge dive. Here is GPA for 9.8 Hulk 181:

 

 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Anyone else remember when TOD #1 and Swamp Thing #1 among others were selling for close to $3000 in 9.8? GPA holds the truth.

 

No.

 

GPA holds snapshots in time that MUST be correctly interpreted, or it loses all meaning. GPA doesn't hold truth, it holds data: truth comes with context.

 

In this case, the market had been starved of high grade material since the late 80's/early 90's, because those who bought such material refused to sell until and unless they could get the premium they felt such material deserved. When the first few examples of such material finally...ahem...materialized on the market, the market had a feeding frenzy, and just *had* to pay whatever it took to obtain it, because "OH NO, what if there AREN'T any more examples of TOD #1 in 9.8 out there, and this is my only chance to own one????"

 

Of course, that wasn't true, several economic laws kicked in (as they always do), the owners of potential 9.8 copies saw the premium, and sent their copies in to be a part of the gravy train, finally. The wiser among us saw "the first one" sell for $X, then the second sell for $X-Y%, and so on, and knew the time to act was now, before the prices settled. (For the record, I did spectacularly well on a few items, but completely missed the boat...New Mutants #87, for example, and Harbinger #1 too...on others.)

 

The really wisest among us sold at the peaks, then scooped them back up at their lows. But the point is, those "highs" were, are, and always will be ARTIFICIAL. They do not, and never have, represented the actual values of these books in any way.

 

The very same exact thing happened in coins. PCGS opened in 1986, NGC in 1987. By 1989, the ultra high grade coins that collectors had been holding back from the market since the 50's and 60's were finally getting the premiums their owners felt that they should, and which the general market had been deprived for a long time, leading to intense psychological demand. So, the first few coins graded MS65 or better by the services were getting monstrous prices..."OMG, 1882 Morgan Dollar in MS65??? PLEASE, TAKE MY $2,000!!! (of course, coin collectors would never say such a thing as "OMG", but you get the point.)

 

The 1882 Morgan Dollar in MS65 is a $450-$500 coin. Those who paid $2,000 "just to have one" have never recovered, ever, in the 25 years since.

 

That's because the 1882 Morgan Dollar in MS65 was never WORTH $2,000 to begin with. Once the market "figured out" how absolutely rare it was in comparison to the rest of the market, it settled in quite nicely at its actual value.

 

What happened to comics is the same exact thing. While the economy has *some* bearing on the situation, the vast majority of the drop in the last 5 years mirrored what happened in coins...albeit, much more slowly, as there is only one legitimate comic grading company...to a "t".

 

As soon as the amount of submissions levels off...that is, there simply aren't anymore multiples of census copies out there yet to be graded...then the ACTUAL value of these items, relative to actual supply and actual demand, will be established firmly, if it hasn't happened already in the vast majority of cases.

 

For someone to publish an article that says "Look, comics are worthless, look what happened to this X-Men #94! It was once worth $26,000, and now it's $8-$10,000! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!" with absolutely ZERO context is foolish ignorance at BEST, and journalistic malpractice at worst.

 

It is, however, an EXCELLENT example of why every one of us should not take what we read at face value.

 

well said!

[VintageComics]

GPA holds snapshots in time that MUST be correctly interpreted, or it loses all meaning. GPA doesn't hold truth, it holds data: truth comes with context.

 

I really like this.

 

 

[Bookery]

Actually, the article is pretty much accurate. It used poor specific examples, particularly sans details... but that's because speaking in broader, albeit more accurate terms, might be confusing for the non-specialist.

 

Using high-extremes to bolster one's bias is hardly new... Overstreet does it every year. Each year the guide provides charts showing how much your issue went up over last year... in 9.2. But this year for instance, the vast majority of comics went down in value for books 8.0 and below... only rising in the highest grades. 99.9% of all exisiting copies can drop in value, yet proponents will claim another "banner year" based on sales records of a few uber-keys or uber-grades.

 

I think the article is more about average people's perception of comic values anyway. The article seems to take issue with the barrage of stories showing folks how valuable comics are by bringing out examples of the rarest and most valuable finds out there. It's like suggesting all old books are valuable because original Audubon portfolios are.

 

In the 70s & 80s average Americans gave away or threw away small fortunes in old comics because there was no easy way for most to imagine they had any value. Now the media has gone overboard in the opposite direction, leading everyone to believe they have a fortune in every "old" comic book.

 

As for your old comics in the basement being worthless... well, probably not. But at 5 or 10 cents apiece they are only slightly above it.

 

+1

 

-1

 

This article is just as bad as the "all comics are valuable" articles. How hard is it to say that, for collector comics, value is a factor of condition, demand and scarcity? That would give a layman an accurate basis for understanding. Describing the price curve of UXM 94 in 9.8 is less than useless, it is misleading.

 

It's ridiculous considering an X-men 94 was a $1 book, then a $5 book, then a $50 a book and even a $500 for a long time before it became a $1000 book.

 

The fact that multiple copies are selling north of $8K is impressive.

 

Dumb article with no perspective.

 

And FWIW, Walt is a pretty sharp dude. Taking people's quotes out of context to make them look dumb is ...well...dumb.

 

 

I dunno. This is obviously a one-shot for the article writer... he's not an expert on comics. Yet his comments and examples are no farther afield then what one would glean reading this, or many other threads, here. Look what we have here already... a fixation on the top end only... what's been brought uo to bolster "the other side"... Hulk 181, WF 71, Superman 76, Detective 31, etc., etc.

 

Anyone want to debate the long-term inflation-adjusted trends for WF 72, Sup 77, Hulk 183, and about 50,000 other issues... especially in lower or mid-grade... which is what most people are likely to own or find? Anyone here want to explain to Joe Non-Expert why he's not going to get a fortune for the vast majority of westerns, romances, non-key crime, movie tie-ins, Disneys, funny animal, funny person, true life comics, most Classics, or even most super-hero issues from Quality, Fawcett, Charlton, Tower, Dell, Gold Key, IW, and that's just the pre-70s stuff!

 

It's easy for people "in the know" to dismiss every bad investment as "crazy money" and every good one as "common sense", especially in retrospect. If most people would only listen and sell at "the peaks" and "buy at the lows"... it's so simple. I did that in the stock market for years until I got so exhausted from making untold billions that I simply had to give it up.

 

Yeah... the article was typical media superficiality. But even a bad article to balance all of the "tear down your walls and look for old comics so you'll be rich!" stuff we've been inundated with for years could have at least some value for the vast uninformed. (Of course-- it's not likely they're reading Bloombergs anyway.)

 

[Beige]

Can we add Cole Schave to this?

The gang's already here......

 

 

 

 

ibtl

 

[mintcollector]

Sorry, but I disagree highly with both the article and a lot of points being made here after ‘bookery’ made his excellent post. One thing that is extremely lacking from this forum (on both sides of the equation) is an unbiased viewpoint. There seems to be little middle ground. Back before bronze age market values collapsed I fondly remember the following books being sold for insane prices in so called 'investment' grade. Here are a few examples (and I can provide a ton more):

 

Sinister House of Secret Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Most 20 cent Marvel number #1 issues in CGC 9.4 went for close to $150 to $200; some more (Vault of Evil #1, Dead of Night #1, Marvel Spotlight #1, etc.)

Marvel Team Up #1 CGC 9.4 $650 +

 

Most of these titles can be had for a lot less and they are NOT in uber high grade. Even esoteric silver age books like Weird War Tales #1, Witching Hour #1, Tower of Shadows #1 (sold for close to $400 in 9.4), Chamber of Darkness #1, etc. all were touted as great 'investments.' Luckily, I didn't buy as I knew better.

 

The fact that this forum fails to acknowledge the great market correction that occurred during this time really makes me wonder what 'truth' we are all misled into believing? Some of you have sent me PM's over the last few months telling me how great your 'insert current hot comic here' increased in value; not realizing that I too hold a massive collection of high grade keys well worth six figures. That being said, why aren't you selling these precious books that claim to return so much money? If you truly bought for investment this should not be an issue for you. Unfortunately, I don't think that was a real reason some of these people bought these books at all and that is the reason they never respond to my later inquiries in this regard.

 

It is really sad what the collectibles marketplace has become. Is Overstreet to blame or are we just addicted to a post-consumer based society where accumulation is the norm? Buying an item that pays no cash flow or dividends and costs money to maintain is not a wise investment in my opinion. Especially when an emotional attachment is concerned. To each his own I guess.

 

 

[Bookery]

The core problem with the article is that it's schizophrenic.

 

It starts off with explaining that all of those boxes of comics in your basement probably aren't going to add up to a lot when it comes time to sell. This is a solid point, and one thousands of folks out there beyond these boards need to be informed about.

 

Then the article veers off to complaining about how some ultra high-end books given artificial grades have collapsed in value. Now either we're talking about folks who have either purchased or inherited a multitude of bulk comics over the years, or we're talking about over-zealous high-end "investors" with money to burn. The guy who discovers the Hulk 181 he bought at a garage sale 20 years ago is worth $8,000 isn't going to complain that it was worth $20,000 a couple of years back. The guy that paid $20,000... not so happy.

 

That's the article's primary flaw (and it's a big one). But the story that's never told is that the vast vast majority of comics out there... vintage and modern... generally don't keep pace with inflation, and whole swaths of even older material have actually dropped considerably over the years, with much more declines to come in titles and genres that fall out of favor with upcoming genertions. For every issue that keeps going "up up and away" in value, there are probably 50 that either stall or decline.

 

Now it is a truism that only a small fraction of any collected merchandise remains truly collectible... it's true of books, coins, posters, and on and on. The one difference with comics is that, historically, it is the only "market" that has continually hyped the myth that ALL comics just keep going up in value over time. Overstreet is the worst offender, with issuing an annual publication that includes even the latest books in its "price" guide. There isn't any other collectibles guide that does that. No coin guide ties up printing space telling you last year's penny is worth a penny. No paperback guide includes last spring's James Patterson relase in its listings. No antique manual goes out of its way to give you a price range on 2007's Ethan Allen sofa.

 

20 years ago I would have instances every month where someone would bring in a so-so stack of vintage comics that I could pay $100 for, and their eyes would light up with excitement, as they exclaimed they were expecting just a few bucks for them. Now today all I ever see is disappointment, except from a few long term knowledgeable collectors who know the score. A few months ago I bought a reasonably high-grade collection of golden-age books, with some nice items but no keys, and a preponderance of humor titles. Nevertheless I valued the collection fairly and came up with an offer of $16,000. Pretty good change for a young couple that inherited everything free of charge.

 

But you'd have thought I'd stepped on their kitten. They loooked in the guides and on eBay and were "certain they are worth a lot more." This is the new norm... almost to a person. They sold, but were clearly disappointed.

 

I miss the days when my occupation actually brought a lot of joy to sellers. So if I get ticked off by the hype and misinformation intentionally or unintentionally foisted on the public year after year, It comes from daily experience, not because I'm "anti-comics" or a "sourpuss" or a "bad manager". Obviously I want comic collectors AND investors to succeed... it's my busness! But you can support your hobby and still want people to have access to honest and straight-forward information. In fact... anything less is, and has been, harmful to the very hobby/business lobbyists are trying so fervently to promote.

 

[Owls Head]

Sorry, but I disagree highly with both the article and a lot of points being made here after ‘bookery’ made his excellent post. One thing that is extremely lacking from this forum (on both sides of the equation) is an unbiased viewpoint. There seems to be little middle ground. Back before bronze age market values collapsed I fondly remember the following books being sold for insane prices in so called 'investment' grade. Here are a few examples (and I can provide a ton more):

 

Sinister House of Secret Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Most 20 cent Marvel number #1 issues in CGC 9.4 went for close to $150 to $200; some more (Vault of Evil #1, Dead of Night #1, Marvel Spotlight #1, etc.)

Marvel Team Up #1 CGC 9.4 $650 +

 

Most of these titles can be had for a lot less and they are NOT in uber high grade. Even esoteric silver age books like Weird War Tales #1, Witching Hour #1, Tower of Shadows #1 (sold for close to $400 in 9.4), Chamber of Darkness #1, etc. all were touted as great 'investments.' Luckily, I didn't buy as I knew better.

 

The fact that this forum fails to acknowledge the great market correction that occurred during this time really makes me wonder what 'truth' we are all misled into believing? Some of you have sent me PM's over the last few months telling me how great your 'insert current hot comic here' increased in value; not realizing that I too hold a massive collection of high grade keys well worth six figures. That being said, why aren't you selling these precious books that claim to return so much money? If you truly bought for investment this should not be an issue for you. Unfortunately, I don't think that was a real reason some of these people bought these books at all and that is the reason they never respond to my later inquiries in this regard.

 

It is really sad what the collectibles marketplace has become. Is Overstreet to blame or are we just addicted to a post-consumer based society where accumulation is the norm? Buying an item that pays no cash flow or dividends and costs money to maintain is not a wise investment in my opinion. Especially when an emotional attachment is concerned. To each his own I guess.

 

 

 

[mintcollector]

Sorry, but I disagree highly with both the article and a lot of points being made here after ‘bookery’ made his excellent post. One thing that is extremely lacking from this forum (on both sides of the equation) is an unbiased viewpoint. There seems to be little middle ground. Back before bronze age market values collapsed I fondly remember the following books being sold for insane prices in so called 'investment' grade. Here are a few examples (and I can provide a ton more):

 

Sinister House of Secret Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Most 20 cent Marvel number #1 issues in CGC 9.4 went for close to $150 to $200; some more (Vault of Evil #1, Dead of Night #1, Marvel Spotlight #1, etc.)

Marvel Team Up #1 CGC 9.4 $650 +

 

Most of these titles can be had for a lot less and they are NOT in uber high grade. Even esoteric silver age books like Weird War Tales #1, Witching Hour #1, Tower of Shadows #1 (sold for close to $400 in 9.4), Chamber of Darkness #1, etc. all were touted as great 'investments.' Luckily, I didn't buy as I knew better.

 

The fact that this forum fails to acknowledge the great market correction that occurred during this time really makes me wonder what 'truth' we are all misled into believing? Some of you have sent me PM's over the last few months telling me how great your 'insert current hot comic here' increased in value; not realizing that I too hold a massive collection of high grade keys well worth six figures. That being said, why aren't you selling these precious books that claim to return so much money? If you truly bought for investment this should not be an issue for you. Unfortunately, I don't think that was a real reason some of these people bought these books at all and that is the reason they never respond to my later inquiries in this regard.

 

It is really sad what the collectibles marketplace has become. Is Overstreet to blame or are we just addicted to a post-consumer based society where accumulation is the norm? Buying an item that pays no cash flow or dividends and costs money to maintain is not a wise investment in my opinion. Especially when an emotional attachment is concerned. To each his own I guess.

 

 

 

 

(thumbs u

 

The post was designed to spur thought.

 

Kind Regards,

 

mint

[RockMyAmadeus]

Sorry, but I disagree highly with both the article and a lot of points being made here after bookery made his excellent post. One thing that is extremely lacking from this forum (on both sides of the equation) is an unbiased viewpoint. There seems to be little middle ground. Back before bronze age market values collapsed I fondly remember the following books being sold for insane prices in so called 'investment' grade. Here are a few examples (and I can provide a ton more):

 

Sinister House of Secret Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love #1 CGC 9.4 $600 +

Most 20 cent Marvel number #1 issues in CGC 9.4 went for close to $150 to $200; some more (Vault of Evil #1, Dead of Night #1, Marvel Spotlight #1, etc.)

Marvel Team Up #1 CGC 9.4 $650 +

 

Most of these titles can be had for a lot less and they are NOT in uber high grade. Even esoteric silver age books like Weird War Tales #1, Witching Hour #1, Tower of Shadows #1 (sold for close to $400 in 9.4), Chamber of Darkness #1, etc. all were touted as great 'investments.' Luckily, I didn't buy as I knew better.

 

The fact that this forum fails to acknowledge the great market correction that occurred during this time really makes me wonder what 'truth' we are all misled into believing? Some of you have sent me PM's over the last few months telling me how great your 'insert current hot comic here' increased in value; not realizing that I too hold a massive collection of high grade keys well worth six figures. That being said, why aren't you selling these precious books that claim to return so much money? If you truly bought for investment this should not be an issue for you. Unfortunately, I don't think that was a real reason some of these people bought these books at all and that is the reason they never respond to my later inquiries in this regard.

 

It is really sad what the collectibles marketplace has become. Is Overstreet to blame or are we just addicted to a post-consumer based society where accumulation is the norm? Buying an item that pays no cash flow or dividends and costs money to maintain is not a wise investment in my opinion. Especially when an emotional attachment is concerned. To each his own I guess.

 

 

Couple of quick clarifying questions:

 

1. To whom, or to what, specifically, are you replying?

 

2. Why do you say the forum fails to acknowledge the great market correction of the last several years? I posted a multi-paragraph saying exactly that, and then explained precisely why it happened: The market corrected itself because of a situation that never "should" have happened (I say "should" entirely philosophically, not realistically. Realistically, what happened was precisely what should have happened, and did in fact happen.) That is, the near starvation of the market of premium high grade material for a couple of decades creating hysterical prices when the first few examples finally appeared for sale, followed by the rush to market by others wishing to cash in, which resulted in the inevitable increase in supply, and concurrent decrease in demand, of said material, until equilibrium was once more obtained.

 

That a few myopic individuals, with no understanding of history, might claim otherwise does not mean that the forum, as a whole, does so.

 

The general point of the article IS correct. The vast majority of comics are "worthless", that is, they do not rise in value to beat inflation, much less make a good investment. This is true in every market. You cannot buy a VG 1947D Lincoln Cent for 5 cents, and expect to ever make 10 cents from it.

 

And Bob Overstreet has the lion's share of the blame in this: it has been his stated policy that his price guide should always show a gentle, consistent rise in prices over time. In that, he has resisted the realities of the market on both sides, listing $100 comics for $3, and steadfastly refusing to LOWER prices on vast swaths of books that do not sell for the prices in the price guide (which, unfortunately, has been moderately obscured by the very phenomenon I described in my previous post.)

 

But the article uses examples that are so completely devoid of context, it renders the entire argument pointless, and presents a wildly erroneous view of the comics market. The lack of context is so egregious, the point the author was trying to make is obliterated, and the market is DAMAGED by people who do not know better, but see only "What? This comic book was worth $26,000, and now it's only worth $8,000?? Well forget THAT! I'm not wasting my money in THAT market!"

 

People see...and remember...numbers. They will remember that figure far longer than they will remember any other point the author was trying to make, rendering the entire article a waste of time. Worse, because of the lack of context, these people will therefore project that misinformation onto the entire comics market, creating a specific negative impression of the entire market that it does not deserve.

 

As far as this forum having very few unbiased viewpoints, that is, sadly, correct. There is very little of it. But it DOES exist, if you look for it.

 

One final note: 9.4 may not be "uber" high grade, but it's awful darn close. When I started buying seriously in 1990, all the high grade silver age books had disappeared from the marketplace. Entirely gone. I did not know that there WERE any "near mint" books left printed before about 1972, and would not see them again until the CGC age a decade later. So 9.4 certainly falls within a "very high grade" discussion of just about anything before 1975.

[RockMyAmadeus]

No coin guide ties up printing space telling you last year's penny is worth a penny.

 

Actually....they do.

 

[Hamlet]

Yeah, it is funny what the internet does to change perceptions.

 

I grew up in the 1980s collecting comics in LaCrosse WI. My access to vintage material was limited to say the least. We did have a local gold and silver seller that expanded into comics and a vintage comics section at the book exchange. I collected for years without realizing that comic books from the 60s could actually look "new".

 

I remember finding a short box late 60s comics at a local antique seller that redefined what "NM" meant to me. The books were bright and glossy, and some of them were nice enough that they would be considered high grade even today.

 

It was my own little personal "Mile High" find, albeit one completely devoid of key issues.

 

One final note: 9.4 may not be "uber" high grade, but it's awful darn close. When I started buying seriously in 1990, all the high grade silver age books had disappeared from the marketplace. Entirely gone. I did not know that there WERE any "near mint" books left printed before about 1972, and would not see them again until the CGC age a decade later. So 9.4 certainly falls within a "very high grade" discussion of just about anything before 1975.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Yeah, it is funny what the internet does to change perceptions.

 

I grew up in the 1980s collecting comics in LaCrosse WI. My access to vintage material was limited to say the least. We did have a local gold and silver seller that expanded into comics and a vintage comics section at the book exchange. I collected for years without realizing that comic books from the 60s could actually look "new".

 

I remember finding a short box late 60s comics at a local antique seller that redefined what "NM" meant to me. The books were bright and glossy, and some of them were nice enough that they would be considered high grade even today.

 

It was my own little personal "Mile High" find, albeit one completely devoid of key issues.

 

 

I was astonished...and THRILLED...to see flawless books from the Silver Age and before. To see a book printed in 1964 without a SINGLE spine tick? And not a single crease ANYWHERE...? No spots, no stains, no rounded corners???

 

 

PS. I saw the 9.8 FF #2 at SDCC this year, at Heritage's booth. It had 2-3 color breaking spine ticks, and some smoothness to the corners, along with slightly rough edges. I was NOT impressed. It was a beautiful 9.4, but in a 9.8 case. When these grades get watered down by not maintaining the same standards across the ages, it greatly damages the value of the brand.

[Bookery]

No coin guide ties up printing space telling you last year's penny is worth a penny.

 

Actually....they do.

 

 

It's been years since I've looked at a coin guide, so it may have changed. IIRC they do have recent dates listed, but primarily to show the value of proof issues or special uncirculated copies? An Overstreet equivalent might be to show what a high-grade limited variant cover lists for... but not the standard off-the rack issue from last year... especially when it tops out at 9.2!

 

When I wrote the pulp guides, I took even inexpensive digests up through the 1960s, but unless something was an unusual value-exception, saw little point in addressing issues after that.

 

And, while I'm at it, RMA, I think your previous post was pretty good. Again... the issue isn't arguing with folks here about the difference between bulk comons and long-term collectibles... clearly folks on these boards know the difference. But it's a shame there's no good way to at least prepare the novices and estate managers out there as to what to realistically expect. I guess I was glad to see an opposing article to, say, the Metropolis one from a few weeks back which was something along the lines of "10 Great Reasons to Invest in Old Comics." But your points about the article's weaknesses are certainly well taken.