Those Comics in Your Basement?

[Bookery]

So basically, what the article is saying is that there are winners in ever market, there are losers in every market and there are those that don't care in every market.

 

 

The article's trying to say that the everyday public is considerably misformed about comics' marketability. It then veers off into some bad examples that aren't clarified.

 

 

Oh, I know exactly what the article is trying to say.

 

This same discussion can spin around any market in the world, though.

 

There are those that know, those that don't know and those that don't care.

 

End.

 

 

But most other markets don't get the media play comics do. Maybe baseball cards and coins, but little else. I'm sure a lot more people come across valuable old books than find valuable comics, but you seldom read about it. The people that bring me in rare books are pretty willing to listen to my explanations of their worth, and accept that I probably know what I'm talking about.

 

The people bringing in random comics finds... not so much. Because the news shows and the magazines and the storage wars and the pickers and the pawn porn and the auction releases have told them that they have a fortune on their hands, and I'm either a crook or am just plain crazy to tell them otherwise!

 

Like I said previously... 20 years ago a $100 offer would make someone's day. Nowadays a $10,000 offer sends them into fits of despair and paranoia that you're trying to cheat them.

 

[The-Collector]

The core problem with the article is that it's schizophrenic.

 

+1.

 

I do not view my books as investments, they are much too speculative to be considered such.

 

this is because of bookery's point, which I also agree with, that for every title that steadily appreciates 50 decline. I do not know anyone who can give accurate long term predictions of which will rise and which will fall. Though a few on here seem to be able to pick short term trends, 6 months to a year, with a degree of consistency.

 

But a majority of the book predictions I see are entirely speculative and conditional upon future facts that are near impossible to foresee.

[oakman29]

Mark my words. Major Inapack's due for a resurgence. (thumbs u

Like everyone I've got a few of those.

[The-Collector]

This article made me laugh. Some of the responses are even funnier.

 

I've had two of my best years ever for finding and flipping collections the last two years, but, don't let facts disuade you from the "expert" opinions out there. Wish I could find more "worthless" collections out there.

 

I flip collections every hour of every day, 52 weeks a year, and have done so for 30 years. What's your point?

 

Then you should be pretty busy counting your millions, shouldn't you?

 

That's what accountants are for. Lucky for you I'm free to continue to entertain here with my sly wit and winning charm. Enjoy!

 

Actually, I've always enjoyed your contributions to these Boards. Nothing in this thread has changed my mind.

 

Now you're just after some of his millions.

 

Actually, I'm thinking adoption. I can be the Arnold to his Mr. Drummond.

 

I would argue that flipping is not the same as the nieve collector buying books to put away in anticipation of capital appreciation.

 

Flippers try and buy below current FMV and then sell as soon as possible.

 

Speculators (though they would call themselves investors) buy at current FMV and hope that in the future prices will rise.

 

I think this approach is particularly speculative because, unlike equity which has an intrinsic value based on real world utility, comic books have no intrinsic value and their price is a function of exceedingly complicated and opaque pop culture trends and personal nostalgia.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I wonder how New Mutants 98 are in those "Worthless" collections.

 

Or Batman Adventures #12

 

Or Uncanny X-Men 266

 

There are a decent amount of moderately valuable books in the era that guy is saying is "worthless."

 

Or Tales of Teen Titans 44, or ASM 300s, or Thor 344, or Hulk 271, or Hulk 340, or Aliens 1, or any one of a dozen "hot" books that were dollar books a couple of years ago.

 

 

ASM #300 has NEVER been a dollar book...

 

 

Depends on who you buy it from. Did find a NM 98 9.6+ in a 50 cent bin last November. Guy overpriced all his SA and early Bronze stuff, but basically wrote off everything after 1980 as garbage. Still a lot of collectors out there with that mentality.

 

Finding it for a dollar, and it being a "dollar book" are different beasts. TTT #44 was, indeed, a "dollar book" (even a quarter book) for most of its life. You would have been hard pressed to find someone willing to pay $1 for it in 2003, or 2007, or 1996. Same with Hulk #271, or Aliens #1, or Thor #344.

 

Spidey #300 has always been in a class all its own, almost since it was published. Someone may have been willing to sell it for a dollar, but from 1988-now, you would have had dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands, of buyers willing to pay $1 for it...indeed, much more.

[Bookery]

The core problem with the article is that it's schizophrenic.

 

+1.

 

I do not view my books as investments, they are much too speculative to be considered such.

 

this is because of bookery's point, which I also agree with, that for every title that steadily appreciates 50 decline. I do not know anyone who can give accurate long term predictions of which will rise and which will fall. Though a few on here seem to be able to pick short term trends, 6 months to a year, with a degree of consistency.

 

But a majority of the book predictions I see are entirely speculative and conditional upon future facts that are near impossible to foresee.

 

Exactly. In fact, my "what's your point" comment to JiveTurkey was meant to expand into an additional comment, and then I got sidetracked (apologies Jive). Because I think it is easier in comics to make money "flipping" (that's what all of us dealers do... which is my point about doing it every day) than it is to plan long-term investment strategies.

 

If you're informed about your subject, you can buy and sell with varying degrees of spread in fairly short order by keeping up on trends and building a client base. Notice on American Pickers they aren't tucking away that rusted out advertising sign for 10 years... they're looking to flip it as quickly as possible.

 

If you want to make money in comics, learn to "flip" them (ie, a new word for the old word "dealer"). If you want to collect comics, collect and let the chips fall where they may. If you want to invest in comics... don't.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

So basically, what the article is saying is that there are winners in ever market, there are losers in every market and there are those that don't care in every market.

 

 

The article's trying to say that the everyday public is considerably misformed about comics' marketability. It then veers off into some bad examples that aren't clarified.

 

 

Oh, I know exactly what the article is trying to say.

 

This same discussion can spin around any market in the world, though.

 

There are those that know, those that don't know and those that don't care.

 

End.

 

 

But most other markets don't get the media play comics do. Maybe baseball cards and coins, but little else. I'm sure a lot more people come across valuable old books than find valuable comics, but you seldom read about it. The people that bring me in rare books are pretty willing to listen to my explanations of their worth, and accept that I probably know what I'm talking about.

 

The people bringing in random comics finds... not so much. Because the news shows and the magazines and the storage wars and the pickers and the pawn porn and the auction releases have told them that they have a fortune on their hands, and I'm either a crook or am just plain crazy to tell them otherwise!

Like I said previously... 20 years ago a $100 offer would make someone's day. Nowadays a $10,000 offer sends them into fits of despair and paranoia that you're trying to cheat them.

 

Yep. Deal with these kind of people weekly.

[rjpb]

 

If you want to make money in comics, learn to "flip" them (ie, a new word for the old word "dealer"). If you want to collect comics, collect and let the chips fall where they may. If you want to invest in comics... don't.

 

 

This. Flipping and investing are very different approaches. I flip houses for a living ( harder than the TV shows would lead you to believe) I'm not concerned with whether the house will be worth more or less than I sell it for a year from now, let alone a decade. I'm in it to make money of a given house within a few months of when I buy it based on the improvements I make. Pricing trends move slowly enough up or down that I can make a safe estimate of what I can sell for in that short a period of time. As with buying comics to flip, the hardest part is finding something at the right price to begin with, condition, neighborhood and architectural stye are all secondary considerations, and meaningless if I don't see a short term profit in the purchase.

 

Not that people don't successfully invest in real estate, but if that were my goal I'd be looking at very different properties. Comics or houses, knowledgeable flippers can make money regardless of the long term investment trends of what it is they are selling, but it takes work, most of us are never going to have a Church collection fall into our lap.

[slym2none]

PS. I saw the 9.8 FF #2 at SDCC this year, at Heritage's booth. It had 2-3 color breaking spine ticks, and some smoothness to the corners, along with slightly rough edges. I was NOT impressed. It was a beautiful 9.4, but in a 9.8 case. When these grades get watered down by not maintaining the same standards across the ages, it greatly damages the value of the brand.

 

Yeah that is the only thing that concerns me about CGCs grading. Golden/Silver Age books have more "leeway" with the grades then a Modern age book does.

 

I think the same grading scale should be used no matter what the age of the book is. That is the only way to keep it uniform and have it really mean anything.

 

+1000

 

 

 

-slym

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

This article made me laugh. Some of the responses are even funnier.

 

I've had two of my best years ever for finding and flipping collections the last two years, but, don't let facts disuade you from the "expert" opinions out there. Wish I could find more "worthless" collections out there.

 

I flip collections every hour of every day, 52 weeks a year, and have done so for 30 years. What's your point?

 

Then you should be pretty busy counting your millions, shouldn't you?

 

That's what accountants are for. Lucky for you I'm free to continue to entertain here with my sly wit and winning charm. Enjoy!

 

Actually, I've always enjoyed your contributions to these Boards. Nothing in this thread has changed my mind.

 

Now you're just after some of his millions.

 

Actually, I'm thinking adoption. I can be the Arnold to his Mr. Drummond.

 

I would argue that flipping is not the same as the nieve collector buying books to put away in anticipation of capital appreciation.

 

Flippers try and buy below current FMV and then sell as soon as possible.

 

Speculators (though they would call themselves investors) buy at current FMV and hope that in the future prices will rise.

 

I think this approach is particularly speculative because, unlike equity which has an intrinsic value based on real world utility, comic books have no intrinsic value and their price is a function of exceedingly complicated and opaque pop culture trends and personal nostalgia.

 

My main issue with the article is that it relied almost solely on what local comic book dealers were willing to offer these collectors as the determining force whether their collections were "worthless" or not.. With apologies to the Bookery, and other respected LCS shop owners on here, the "average" LCS is hardly the place to take your collection if you want to maximize your return. In fact, its probably the last place. If you want to get top dollar for your '68 Camaro, do you take it down to Uncle Murray's Used Car Emporium or do you try to market it to the right collector, or even a dealer who deals exclusively with vintage muscle cars?

 

I can't tell you how many times I've purchased a collection or group of books where the owner at least knew to get a second opinion from what their LCS offered. My best purchase of the last five years was a collection that sat on Craigslist for several months. Many dealers saw the "inventory" the owner created, and just couldn't reconcile the asking price with what was there....nevermind that the inventory was only partially accurate and that there were thousands of extra books there easily worth the full asking price (which I didn't come close to paying). The guy said he received several offers, but all were lowballs....and no one came to see the collection before I did. And honestly, there aren't many comic shops that can afford a straight up five figure cash purchase, even if the potential return is several times that, so they play the "talk the books down" game hoping to secure stuff on the cheap. That strategy often leaves a door open for a guy like me to come in and pay a better price.

 

 

[ItsJustRyan]

 

I enjoy all aspects of comics. The art. The hunt. The stories. The mythology. The legends. The culture. The comradery. The buying. The selling. The trading. The grading. The excitement of getting that sweet book in grade. The disappointment of a insufficiently_thoughtful_person seller mailing a book in a non-padded envelope (and outing him here). The anticipation of submission results. The keys. The characters. The life of a comic book junkie....

 

Welcome.

[slym2none]

So basically, what the article is saying is that there are winners in every market, there are losers in every market and there are those that don't care in every market.

 

 

In the meantime, I just thought I'd let people know the Titanic sank.

 

 

 

-slym (was not aiming this post at Roy)

[slym2none]

So basically, what the article is saying is that there are winners in ever market, there are losers in every market and there are those that don't care in every market.

 

 

And the sky is blue, the grass is green, and news of the Titanic sinking will be breaking soon!

 

Dammit...

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Humangatan]

Actually, the article is pretty much accurate. It used poor specific examples, particularly sans details... but that's because speaking in broader, albeit more accurate terms, might be confusing for the non-specialist.

 

Using high-extremes to bolster one's bias is hardly new... Overstreet does it every year. Each year the guide provides charts showing how much your issue went up over last year... in 9.2. But this year for instance, the vast majority of comics went down in value for books 8.0 and below... only rising in the highest grades. 99.9% of all exisiting copies can drop in value, yet proponents will claim another "banner year" based on sales records of a few uber-keys or uber-grades.

 

I think the article is more about average people's perception of comic values anyway. The article seems to take issue with the barrage of stories showing folks how valuable comics are by bringing out examples of the rarest and most valuable finds out there. It's like suggesting all old books are valuable because original Audubon portfolios are.

 

In the 70s & 80s average Americans gave away or threw away small fortunes in old comics because there was no easy way for most to imagine they had any value. Now the media has gone overboard in the opposite direction, leading everyone to believe they have a fortune in every "old" comic book.

 

As for your old comics in the basement being worthless... well, probably not. But at 5 or 10 cents apiece they are only slightly above it.

 

+1

 

-1

 

This article is just as bad as the "all comics are valuable" articles. How hard is it to say that, for collector comics, value is a factor of condition, demand and scarcity? That would give a layman an accurate basis for understanding. Describing the price curve of UXM 94 in 9.8 is less than useless, it is misleading.

 

It's ridiculous considering an X-men 94 was a $1 book, then a $5 book, then a $50 a book and even a $500 for a long time before it became a $1000 book.

 

The fact that multiple copies are selling north of $8K is impressive.

 

Dumb article with no perspective.

 

And FWIW, Walt is a pretty sharp dude. Taking people's quotes out of context to make them look dumb is ...well...dumb.

 

 

I dunno. This is obviously a one-shot for the article writer... he's not an expert on comics. Yet his comments and examples are no farther afield then what one would glean reading this, or many other threads, here. Look what we have here already... a fixation on the top end only... what's been brought uo to bolster "the other side"... Hulk 181, WF 71, Superman 76, Detective 31, etc., etc.

 

Anyone want to debate the long-term inflation-adjusted trends for WF 72, Sup 77, Hulk 183, and about 50,000 other issues... especially in lower or mid-grade... which is what most people are likely to own or find? Anyone here want to explain to Joe Non-Expert why he's not going to get a fortune for the vast majority of westerns, romances, non-key crime, movie tie-ins, Disneys, funny animal, funny person, true life comics, most Classics, or even most super-hero issues from Quality, Fawcett, Charlton, Tower, Dell, Gold Key, IW, and that's just the pre-70s stuff!

 

It's easy for people "in the know" to dismiss every bad investment as "crazy money" and every good one as "common sense", especially in retrospect. If most people would only listen and sell at "the peaks" and "buy at the lows"... it's so simple. I did that in the stock market for years until I got so exhausted from making untold billions that I simply had to give it up.

 

Yeah... the article was typical media superficiality. But even a bad article to balance all of the "tear down your walls and look for old comics so you'll be rich!" stuff we've been inundated with for years could have at least some value for the vast uninformed. (Of course-- it's not likely they're reading Bloombergs anyway.)

 

+1

 

You're spot on, seems alot of people are taking the article (poorly written as it is) as a personal jab against them, when all it seems to be doing is generalizing a pretty accurate statement: 99% of the comics the average person out there has are worth a few hundred dollars (if that),and nothing more. Pretty simple to me, and makes sense. I don't see any reason to start quoting value increases on rare slabbed comics..

[Prince Namor]

The majority of comics that people own are worthless, because the majority of comics that are printed are worthless.

 

From 1997 to 2009, 12 not-so-stunning years of comic publishing numbers, the Diamond Top 300 consisted of 1 BILLION copies printed of those books.

JUST the Diamond Top 300.

That doesn't include newsstand, or whatever the bottom number of comics were.

 

And that's coming off a previous decade when comic publishing numbers reached it's highest points since the early 50's.

 

99% of that stuff is worthless.

Yes, there is a jewel amongst all of that somewhere.

Yes, some of it in UHG has a small market.

99% of it is worthless.

 

Heck, I'll bet the number of issues printed in just May of 1992 that are STILL OUT THERE would do damage to a land fill.

[Beige]

 

If you want to make money in comics, learn to "flip" them (ie, a new word for the old word "dealer"). If you want to collect comics, collect and let the chips fall where they may. If you want to invest in comics... don't.

 

 

This. Flipping and investing are very different approaches. I flip houses for a living ( harder than the TV shows would lead you to believe) I'm not concerned with whether the house will be worth more or less than I sell it for a year from now, let alone a decade. I'm in it to make money of a given house within a few months of when I buy it based on the improvements I make. Pricing trends move slowly enough up or down that I can make a safe estimate of what I can sell for in that short a period of time. As with buying comics to flip, the hardest part is finding something at the right price to begin with, condition, neighborhood and architectural stye are all secondary considerations, and meaningless if I don't see a short term profit in the purchase.

 

Not that people don't successfully invest in real estate, but if that were my goal I'd be looking at very different properties. Comics or houses, knowledgeable flippers can make money regardless of the long term investment trends of what it is they are selling, but it takes work, most of us are never going to have a Church collection fall into our lap.

 

Again goes back to the "key" component.

I firmly believe that for the next 5 - 10 years minimum, it will be fairly hard to go wrong if you stick to the established blue-chip GA/SA books.

FF #1, AS #8, X-Men #1, Action # 252, Avengers #1, AF #15 etc, the first issues of an iconic team or character will hold its value as it is supported by the media/cinematic/pop-culture trend.

After Marvel and DC finish their "phases" for the mostly Silver Age/Golden Age characters, then the market will respond to the next impetus it does or doesn't receive. For the film studios, unless the world turns to dust either financially or literally, then that is 10 years away. DC especially won't even consider its JLA team-up film for another 3 years if reports are to be believed. The spin-off "origin" tales - WW, The Flash, AquaMan, Hawkman, MM, (plus extra villans and heroes) will take years to complete.

 

Someone mentioned Casablanca and John Wayne earlier - both blue chip items in their day - but that day has passed.

Heck, 50% of the people who watched the remake of True Grit, probably had no idea there was an original, or the actor that played the main role.

The market for Casablanca memorabilia is also virtually nil, not because the film has suddenly become gash, but because it has simply faded from public awareness.

The current movie rush has spawned a new generation of fans - and to those who say these people are not reading the comics - please look again.

They are, and in droves.

By buying direct, on-line, by-passing the LCS. Cheaper and more efficient.

 

There is potentially a new 25 year lifespan for these GA/SA keys right now, and Marvel/DC producing more and more quality products only serve to increase this timeframe.

The game has changed and those that cannot/will not adapt will be left behind unfortunately.

"Collect what you want" now comes with the addendum - "if you don't mind it being worthless when you disband your collection" - GA/SA keys are the only sure-fire way to minimise this financial inevitablility.

 

All IMHO opinion of course.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Most comic books are a bad bet for investment or speculative purposes.

The "variant" books with different covers devaluate the newsstand editions. Comics are also a bad value for your entertainment dollar

You can walk into a comic store and see that the comics at $4.00 each.

Who wants to pay $8 bucks to read a half hour of the new 52?

I can get Netflix for $8 bucks a month.

I can go buy a video game for $9

Even most big comic books are a LOSING money bad bet.

Go buy a slabbed comic book for $1000,then try to sell that same book for $1000 the next week and you will have lost money to do auction fees, and ebay/paypal fees.

Three factors have fueled and have kept the comics will be valuable illusion alive.

CGC comics being pressed up a grade(biggest money maker by far.)

Movie hyped comics.

Walking Dead comics becoming a hit, so now everybody looks for another Walking Dead.

With all three factors slowly winding down now, plus most comic book fans reaching the average age of 50 with no new age fan base entering the market = prognosis of a future sell off like what happened in stamps. Most common comics will not be sellable or maybe will net 5 cents to 50 cents a piece.

Those AF 15s type comics won`t be walking thru that door!

Buy stocks or 529 plans if you want to pay for your children`s college.

Buy comics to read for entertainment value.

IMHO

[Prince Namor]

 

If you want to make money in comics, learn to "flip" them (ie, a new word for the old word "dealer"). If you want to collect comics, collect and let the chips fall where they may. If you want to invest in comics... don't.

 

 

This. Flipping and investing are very different approaches. I flip houses for a living ( harder than the TV shows would lead you to believe) I'm not concerned with whether the house will be worth more or less than I sell it for a year from now, let alone a decade. I'm in it to make money of a given house within a few months of when I buy it based on the improvements I make. Pricing trends move slowly enough up or down that I can make a safe estimate of what I can sell for in that short a period of time. As with buying comics to flip, the hardest part is finding something at the right price to begin with, condition, neighborhood and architectural stye are all secondary considerations, and meaningless if I don't see a short term profit in the purchase.

 

Not that people don't successfully invest in real estate, but if that were my goal I'd be looking at very different properties. Comics or houses, knowledgeable flippers can make money regardless of the long term investment trends of what it is they are selling, but it takes work, most of us are never going to have a Church collection fall into our lap.

 

Again goes back to the "key" component.

I firmly believe that for the next 5 - 10 years minimum, it will be fairly hard to go wrong if you stick to the established blue-chip GA/SA books.

FF #1, AS #8, X-Men #1, Action # 252, Avengers #1, AF #15 etc, the first issues of an iconic team or character will hold its value as it is supported by the media/cinematic/pop-culture trend.

After Marvel and DC finish their "phases" for the mostly Silver Age/Golden Age characters, then the market will respond to the next impetus it does or doesn't receive. For the film studios, unless the world turns to dust either financially or literally, then that is 10 years away. DC especially won't even consider its JLA team-up film for another 3 years if reports are to be believed. The spin-off "origin" tales - WW, The Flash, AquaMan, Hawkman, MM, (plus extra villans and heroes) will take years to complete.

 

Someone mentioned Casablanca and John Wayne earlier - both blue chip items in their day - but that day has passed.

Heck, 50% of the people who watched the remake of True Grit, probably had no idea there was an original, or the actor that played the main role.

The market for Casablanca memorabilia is also virtually nil, not because the film has suddenly become gash, but because it has simply faded from public awareness.

The current movie rush has spawned a new generation of fans - and to those who say these people are not reading the comics - please look again.

They are, and in droves.

By buying direct, on-line, by-passing the LCS. Cheaper and more efficient.

 

There is potentially a new 25 year lifespan for these GA/SA keys right now, and Marvel/DC producing more and more quality products only serve to increase this timeframe.

The game has changed and those that cannot/will not adapt will be left behind unfortunately.

"Collect what you want" now comes with the addendum - "if you don't mind it being worthless when you disband your collection" - GA/SA keys are the only sure-fire way to minimise this financial inevitablility.

 

All IMHO opinion of course.

 

. What I see is interest in the book BEFORE the movie, and then it tends to go a bit dead after the movie actually comes out.

How does the drove know ahead of time?

If you're talking new comics, then why isn't the Avengers comic numbers going up?

It was the biggest of all the superhero movies, yet the comic publishing numbers seem kinda, enh.

People love those dog gone Iron Man movies.... the comic.... just so-so.

Where are these droves?

[Prince Namor]

Most comic books are a bad bet for investment or speculative purposes....Buy comics to read for entertainment value.

IMHO

 

(thumbs u

 

Congrats to Red Sox.

[Beige]

Most comic books are a bad bet for investment or speculative purposes.

The "variant" books with different covers devaluate the newsstand editions. Comics are also a bad value for your entertainment dollar

You can walk into a comic store and see that the comics at $4.00 each.

Who wants to pay $8 bucks to read a half hour of the new 52?

I can get Netflix for $8 bucks a month.

I can go buy a video game for $9

Even most big comic books are a LOSING money bad bet.

Go buy a slabbed comic book for $1000,then try to sell that same book for $1000 the next week and you will have lost money to do auction fees, and ebay/paypal fees.

Three factors have fueled and have kept the comics will be valuable illusion alive.

CGC comics being pressed up a grade(biggest money maker by far.)

Movie hyped comics.

Walking Dead comics becoming a hit, so now everybody looks for another Walking Dead.

With all three factors slowly winding down now, plus most comic book fans reaching the average age of 50 with no new age fan base entering the market = prognosis of a future sell off like what happened in stamps. Most common comics will not be sellable or maybe will net 5 cents to 50 cents a piece.

Those AF 15s type comics won`t be walking thru that door!

Buy stocks or 529 plans if you want to pay for your children`s college.

Buy comics to read for entertainment value.

IMHO

 

I usually agree with most of your posts - but the quote below is utter tripe.

Have you not been in moderns lately? Do a quick poll re: ages and the average is well under 30!

 

plus most comic book fans reaching the average age of 50 with no new age fan base entering the market

 

My kids (teenagers) and pretty much all their friends at University are into comics, movies and TV stuff. The current teenager/twenty-somethings are well into comic books!