Did this book really just flip this fast?

[batman_fan]

I saw this Spiderman 1 on CLINK the other day but it had already sold for $9,975. Seemed like a decent deal. Well it must have been because it is listed with the same scan at $14,000 now.

 

[Illustrious]

I noticed that too.

[MatterEaterLad]

[Davenport]

I thought that was just a normal level of Gaming these days, or tactic or 'play', however you want to say it.

Where some clients 'win', but never take delivery, just relist at a new premium.

 

Seems like Pedigree Comics posted once about that level of play when under fire about whether reported sales actually took place or not.

 

And it makes a kind of sense. Playing at the nose-bleed levels, why risk shipping damage or loss if it's flip-fodder on a blind venue? Safer to just tell the vendor to hold it for a breath and relist.

[Tony S]

It might be a flip. But it could also be that it is the same seller. I forget the details, but there was a thread about CL auctions where the books look to be sold but aren't really. Something about in the last day or few hours the book is bumped by CL almost to the reserve price so the next bid puts it over. AND when they do this it no longer shows as a book with a reserve. So if no one else bids the book looks sold but is not - and then often shows up the next day on the Exchange.

 

Someone want to help me out here that remembers the thread or knows the policy better? I know in the thread I read this policy was heatedly criticized.

[The-Collector]

It might be a flip. But it could also be that it is the same seller. I forget the details, but there was a thread about CL auctions where the books look to be sold but aren't really. Something about in the last day or few hours the book is bumped by CL almost to the reserve price so the next bid puts it over. AND when they do this it no longer shows as a book with a reserve. So if no one else bids the book looks sold but is not - and then often shows up the next day on the Exchange.

 

Someone want to help me out here that remembers the thread or knows the policy better? I know in the thread I read this policy was heatedly criticized.

 

Was this CL or heritage?

[miraclemet]

It might be a flip. But it could also be that it is the same seller. I forget the details, but there was a thread about CL auctions where the books look to be sold but aren't really. Something about in the last day or few hours the book is bumped by CL almost to the reserve price so the next bid puts it over. AND when they do this it no longer shows as a book with a reserve. So if no one else bids the book looks sold but is not - and then often shows up the next day on the Exchange.

 

Someone want to help me out here that remembers the thread or knows the policy better? I know in the thread I read this policy was heatedly criticized.

 

Was this CL or heritage?

 

it was CL

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Beyond all the shady sales tactics, that is a beautiful looking book. Shame about the PQ.

[drbanner]

Clink may not even have the book in hand yet as the seller keeps possession of the book until it's sold. The new buyer may or may not have Clink hold it when CGC receives it from the original, or maybe Clink bought it?

 

Makes you wonder what % of 4/5-figure books are bought by dealers/flippers for direct re-sale with or without a press. Several of the Cole Schave books have already shown up for resale...

[Wally's Comics]

On the one hand I hated to miss it at $9,975, but on the other I'm dumbfounded how it received this grade with that chunk out above the top staple. Maybe CGC knows something I don't know...

 

 

 

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

Clink may not even have the book in hand yet as the seller keeps possession of the book until it's sold. The new buyer may or may not have Clink hold it when CGC receives it from the original, or maybe Clink bought it?

 

Makes you wonder what % of 4/5-figure books are bought by dealers/flippers for direct re-sale with or without a press. Several of the Cole Schave books have already shown up for resale...

Interesting and it makes me wonder what would ever happen if those limited amount of dealers/flippers ever went out of business or loss interest in comic book back issues?

Do the prices drop dramatically without them to keep them at that level?

The vintage Comic book high grade market is vastly smaller compared to the stock market, as in if the big comic book players ever decided to play somewhere else,then the market could be affected much more then on Wall Street. On Wall Street it would be a blip if some decided not to play anymore.

It makes me think that the comic book vintage market is really based on a deck of cards kind of foundation for the most part. Kind of interesting if somebody is spending thousands of dollars based on this shaky foundation.

Don`t you think?

[CKB]

On the one hand I hated to miss it at $9,975, but on the other I'm dumbfounded how it received this grade with that chunk out above the top staple. Maybe CGC knows something I don't know...

 

 

 

 

 

Looks might that might be from the removal of an amateur color touch. Maybe not, just is consistent with what it looks like. If CGC somehow convinced themselves it was a bindery issue I can understand the grade. But I'm with you, I like my VFs to not have small pieces missing from the spine.

 

[Dark Knight]

That book closely resembled my 6.5 copy I had back in 2008. Has that same small circular piece out at the top staple.

[Tony S]

Clink may not even have the book in hand yet as the seller keeps possession of the book until it's sold. The new buyer may or may not have Clink hold it when CGC receives it from the original, or maybe Clink bought it?

 

Makes you wonder what % of 4/5-figure books are bought by dealers/flippers for direct re-sale with or without a press. Several of the Cole Schave books have already shown up for resale...

 

CL has all books in hand that are for their auctions. It is the Exchange where the seller typically has the book and ships it to CL once it sells

 

[passion4comics]

Clink may not even have the book in hand yet as the seller keeps possession of the book until it's sold. The new buyer may or may not have Clink hold it when CGC receives it from the original, or maybe Clink bought it?

 

Makes you wonder what % of 4/5-figure books are bought by dealers/flippers for direct re-sale with or without a press. Several of the Cole Schave books have already shown up for resale...

 

Is that why it takes them 3-weeks to get the books you win into your hands?

[drbanner]

They have the auction books in hand when the auction starts, but this book was listed on the exchange (I believe?) so they would not necessarily have had it on hand when it sold for $9k+.

[Tony S]

They have the auction books in hand when the auction starts, but this book was listed on the exchange (I believe?) so they would not necessarily have had it on hand when it sold for $9k+.

 

They could always make exceptions, but I have talked to them about this and they say for their auctions books are in hand. You can see that the scans all look the same, something that would not be the case if owners were keeping the books and uploading scans themselves.

 

As for the comment from another boardie about three week shipping time: I don't work for CL so I have no reason to defend them. But their auctions are getting pretty large and it seems reasonable that it's going to take a while to get all of the books shipped out, even when payment has been made a means that they don't need to wait for clearance.

 

I've purchased books from CL's and Pedigree's auctions. I've never purchased from Heritage's or Comic Connect auctions. Pedigree did indeed send my books out quicker. How does three weeks compare to Heritage and Comic Connect auctions?

[Sqeggs]

Clink may not even have the book in hand yet as the seller keeps possession of the book until it's sold. The new buyer may or may not have Clink hold it when CGC receives it from the original, or maybe Clink bought it?

 

Makes you wonder what % of 4/5-figure books are bought by dealers/flippers for direct re-sale with or without a press. Several of the Cole Schave books have already shown up for resale...

Interesting and it makes me wonder what would ever happen if those limited amount of dealers/flippers ever went out of business or loss interest in comic book back issues?

Do the prices drop dramatically without them to keep them at that level?

The vintage Comic book high grade market is vastly smaller compared to the stock market, as in if the big comic book players ever decided to play somewhere else,then the market could be affected much more then on Wall Street. On Wall Street it would be a blip if some decided not to play anymore.

It makes me think that the comic book vintage market is really based on a deck of cards kind of foundation for the most part. Kind of interesting if somebody is spending thousands of dollars based on this shaky foundation.

Don`t you think?

 

It's a reasonable observation. The tipping point may come in a few years when -- as I expect -- super hero movies no longer top the charts. If that genre fades, I think there will be significant fallout in the comic market.

 

It could be a long way to the bottom for books currently selling in the mid-five figures and above. Particularly since, as you note, those prices appear to be supported more by continuing rounds of flipping than by books being absorbed long term into collections.

[VintageComics]

It's a reasonable observation. The tipping point may come in a few years when -- as I expect -- super hero movies no longer top the charts. If that genre fades, I think there will be significant fallout in the comic market.

 

It could be a long way to the bottom for books currently selling in the mid-five figures and above. Particularly since, as you note, those prices appear to be supported more by continuing rounds of flipping than by books being absorbed long term into collections.

 

Two counterpoints to consider before the sky starts falling.

 

a) Collectors are always flipping books as a means to get to the books they want. Once they get to something they want, it stops being flipped. There's someone who's going to want that ASM #1, it just hasn't reached them yet.

 

b) Books were worth lots of money before the movies became a factor. I'd venture to say that they'll probably still be worth 'a lot' after the movies stop being a factor as well.

 

 

[Sqeggs]

It's a reasonable observation. The tipping point may come in a few years when -- as I expect -- super hero movies no longer top the charts. If that genre fades, I think there will be significant fallout in the comic market.

 

It could be a long way to the bottom for books currently selling in the mid-five figures and above. Particularly since, as you note, those prices appear to be supported more by continuing rounds of flipping than by books being absorbed long term into collections.

 

Two counterpoints to consider before the sky starts falling.

 

a) Collectors are always flipping books as a means to get to the books they want. Once they get to something they want, it stops being flipped. There's someone who's going to want that ASM #1, it just hasn't reached them yet.

 

b) Books were worth lots of money before the movies became a factor. I'd venture to say that they'll probably still be worth 'a lot' after the movies stop being a factor as well.

 

 

Those are also reasonable observations. (I'm a very agreeable sort of person. )

 

But I would say with respect to a) -- I think this was CC's point -- that a lot of the flippers aren't actually collectors, so should they high tail it out of the hobby, there will be an effect on prices. That is, even if a book eventually lands in the hands of a collector after multiple flips, the collector sees the high price he paid as reasonable only because all of the churning by flippers made it seem reasonable.

 

Here's an analogy to the U.S. housing market. A family might have bought a house in 2005 in Las Vegas, San Diego, Miami, etc. for, say, $400,000 in a neighborhood where a few years before houses were selling for $200,000. They aren't flippers; they actually want to live in the house. But $400,000 seemed like a reasonable price to them only because of the artificial churning of the market caused by flippers, subprime borrowers, and so on. When the artificial churning disappeared, prices plummeted.

 

With respect to b), many books were doing well -- although, not this well (think AF 15) -- before the movies. The broader point is that we are in a highly favorable moment in time for comic book prices: boomers in their max income years, super heroes ascendant in movies/TV, comics widely seen as an "investment," and so on. And we have had one heck of a long bull market in prices.

 

Maybe it will go on indefinitely and 20 years from now mid grade AF 15s will be $100K books. But man, I wouldn't want to risk serious money on the proposition. I would say it's a least as likely that the prices of most key books will be lower 10 years from now as it is that they will be higher.