The Shiller Speaks

[Doohickamabob]

Now i feel bad. I consider myself a virtuous seller and despise shilling. Now i cant be trusted.

I don't know what you wrote in the thread, but my purpose was not to shame somebody who despises shilling.

Yeah, had to re-read that post again and it doesn't really make sense and the conclusion was wildly_fanciful_statement

Not exactly making your case there.

[youmechooz]

I wrote that if you bid on something, lets say your max bid is $100, just think to yourself that no matter what, the book cost you $100. That way, if its shilled up to $99 you wont go into a rage about the $100.

What you're talking about is bidding practice. That's a different subject than the question of whether shilling is wrong.

Yeah but

1. Someone who says "bid what you are willing to pay" doesn't have any less morals than you or I.

2. Stealing a car and shilling are completely different.

3. Nobody is making you pay $100 more after the $199 shill.

If you are talking about bidding on an item that is $100 with a $100 max bid and the shill bidder bids it up to $99 or whatever then that's terrible but you put that max bid at $100.

Any seller that shills his/her auctions should not be trusted, 100% agree. I also say bid what you are willing to pay and I have very high moral standards and should be trusted.

[youmechooz]

Now i feel bad. I consider myself a virtuous seller and despise shilling. Now i cant be trusted.

I don't know what you wrote in the thread, but my purpose was not to shame somebody who despises shilling.

Yeah, had to re-read that post again and it doesn't really make sense and the conclusion was wildly_fanciful_statement

Not exactly making your case there.

Doesn't matter. I know who I am. Less than 1% of board members buy from me and those who have, I believe, trust me.

[Doohickamabob]

I wrote that if you bid on something, lets say your max bid is $100, just think to yourself that no matter what, the book cost you $100. That way, if its shilled up to $99 you wont go into a rage about the $100.

What you're talking about is bidding practice. That's a different subject than the question of whether shilling is wrong.

Yeah but

1. Someone who says "bid what you are willing to pay" doesn't have any less morals than you or I.

2. Stealing a car and shilling are completely different.

3. Nobody is making you pay $100 more after the $199 shill.

If you are talking about bidding on an item that is $100 with a $100 max bid and the shill bidder bids it up to $99 or whatever then that's terrible but you put that max bid at $100.

Any seller that shills his/her auctions should not be trusted, 100% agree. I also say bid what you are willing to pay and I have very high moral standards and should be trusted.

1. Not my point. The point is if they use "bid what you're willing to pay" as a way to DISMISS the question "Is shilling wrong?", or as their primary, reflexive, be-all-end-all type of answer. Then the person is suspect.

 

2. No kidding. It's not meant to be a 100% parallel, but it does have some basic similarities: There's a culprit, a victim, ways to minimize the chance of victimhood, and the fact that those practices are unrelated to the question of whether the person taking the car is a thief. There are also differences but those differences don't negate the purpose of the comparison (or if they do, then please make a case as to why).

 

3. "Nobody is making you pay $100 more" is irrelevant to the question of whether shilling is wrong. Sure, it's relevant in the sense of advising somebody on a sound bidding practice that will minimize having a bad feeling after an auction ends. But if the subject of a conversation is "Is shilling wrong?" and a person keeps coming back with "Nobody is making you pay more than you're willing to bid!" then there's a disconnect.

[bababooey]

All this anxiety over who doohicky is calling out over shills, morals etc..etc.. just demonstrates the collector condition.

 

NO ONE made you read that wall-of-text that he posted but you !!!!

 

 

[Doohickamabob]

Now i feel bad. I consider myself a virtuous seller and despise shilling. Now i cant be trusted.

I don't know what you wrote in the thread, but my purpose was not to shame somebody who despises shilling.

Yeah, had to re-read that post again and it doesn't really make sense and the conclusion was wildly_fanciful_statement

Not exactly making your case there.

Doesn't matter. I know who I am. Less than 1% of board members buy from me and those who have, I believe, trust me.

That's great. I'm glad.

[youmechooz]

Now i feel bad. I consider myself a virtuous seller and despise shilling. Now i cant be trusted.

I don't know what you wrote in the thread, but my purpose was not to shame somebody who despises shilling.

Yeah, had to re-read that post again and it doesn't really make sense and the conclusion was wildly_fanciful_statement

Not exactly making your case there.

Doesn't matter. I know who I am. Less than 1% of board members buy from me and those who have, I believe, trust me.

That's great. I'm glad.

i don't know man. Tired and really wired, like 4 cups of coffee. I think im just mad at the keyboard?

[youmechooz]

i figure any more caffeine and ill start crying about Game of Thrones last night.

[RockMyAmadeus]

[The-Collector]

But how is sniping manipulating the final price of an auction?

 

It's a bid just like any other.

 

+1

[Doohickamabob]

Now i feel bad. I consider myself a virtuous seller and despise shilling. Now i cant be trusted.

I don't know what you wrote in the thread, but my purpose was not to shame somebody who despises shilling.

Yeah, had to re-read that post again and it doesn't really make sense and the conclusion was wildly_fanciful_statement

Not exactly making your case there.

Doesn't matter. I know who I am. Less than 1% of board members buy from me and those who have, I believe, trust me.

That's great. I'm glad.

i don't know man. Tired and really wired, like 4 cups of coffee. I think im just mad at the keyboard?

Cool man. My original (wall of text) post was kind of P.O.'ed at nobody in particular, more based in bad feelings from experiences where I suspected I got shilled or friends were shilled (or anybody was shilled, friends or otherwise).

 

The auction process is supposed to be fun or at least interesting, with a bit of a gambling element to it ("you might get lucky!"), and also some elements of surprise and a way to determine the true market value of an item among the people bidding.

 

When I think of a seller moving behind the scenes to manipulate the process, and mislead bidders, turning them into his own puppets, and basically making people think they're playing one game when really they're playing a different game, it bothers me. I believe in the Golden Rule and I bid on a lot of auctions. I want those auctions to be fair and to really have the chance to get a deal from time to time. In return, when I sell things in auction format, I am willing to take a hit if the item doesn't sell for what I think it should. That's part of the deal, part of the gamble.

 

A seller who shills an auction is basically slapping a price sticker on his item that nobody can see. It's "I have a reserve but you don't know there's a reserve, and too bad for you if you thought you might get a deal."

 

Here's another example: It's like if you played the Lottery and there were never any winners, or the winners were chosen by somebody inside instead of being at random like they're declared to be. Sure, you were willing to pay that $2 anyway, and sure there's hardly any difference between a 1 in 10,000,000 chance and a 0 in 10,000,000 chance. But there is still a real and important difference, and it's not just a numerical difference but a difference between something honest and something dishonest.

 

When I see people who don't really appear to understand why shilling is wrong, or who seem to be subtly victim-blaming, or shifting the discussion onto the behavior of the victim or potential victim, then I start to wonder whether those people "get it." Or even whether they might be rationalizing excuses for why shilling is OK, no big deal, not wrong, etc.

 

In other threads about shilling here on the CGC forums, I've seen users say things like, "Why should the bidder think he can get a discount?" (I specifically remember somebody saying something to this effect, in full defense of shilling. I can probably go back and find the actual message if I search hard enough.) The fact that people think this way is irksome.

 

When you read a thread like this and see people making those rationalization-leaning arguments over and over, you get a sense that maybe those people don't have a firm grasp of ethics. I will gladly allow that some benefit of the doubt can be given, and that sometimes people play Devil's Advocate, etc. In reverse, I also acknowledge that a person can make all the most self-righteous and logical arguments and it doesn't mean you should trust their actual real-life behavior.

 

Anyway, that's my view... I will now relieve you from this wall o' text.

[Doohickamabob]

i figure any more caffeine and ill start crying about Game of Thrones last night.

I demand a trial by combat.

[CAHokie]

This thread has taken on a whole new direction. The good part is that it lets boardies know which dealers are ok with shilling and which ones are not.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Undisclosed shilling is dishonest. If a seller is going to shill by having an uninterested party bid, they should inform you upfront. Then you can decide if the item is worth it.

 

[youmechooz]

i figure any more caffeine and ill start crying about Game of Thrones last night.

I demand a trial by combat.

Was upset that it didn't play out last night. Was waiting for something like that. Can't wait for next week, going crazy now.

This thread has taken on a whole new direction. The good part is that it lets boardies know which dealers are ok with shilling and which ones are not.

give us a list. can't read between the lines on these. Adderall stopped working around 5 or so.

[dupont2005]

Shilling is using deceit to extract extra money from unsuspecting bidders. It is done by the lowest of the low. Anyone who does it is a #$^&$!^ and should be banned. I really don't see how anyone could think otherwise.

 

Agreed, anyone with a shred of decency knows it's dishonest.

 

True enough, but it's widely done. A lot of people consider it part of their normal selling practice, particularly on certain books.

Yeah, there's some notable sellers with questionable ethics. I don't buy here often, and I don't buy high dollar items often, but I like to think of this community as a special place, where a more trustworthy group of people who value character buy and sell. I'd like to see people who are known to shill and partake in other unethical penny pinching practices be run off from this place.

[Mr Sneeze]

Shilling is using deceit to extract extra money from unsuspecting bidders. It is done by the lowest of the low. Anyone who does it is a #$^&$!^ and should be banned. I really don't see how anyone could think otherwise.

 

Agreed, anyone with a shred of decency knows it's dishonest.

 

True enough, but it's widely done. A lot of people consider it part of their normal selling practice, particularly on certain books.

Yeah, there's some notable sellers with questionable ethics. I don't buy here often, and I don't buy high dollar items often, but I like to think of this community as a special place, where a more trustworthy group of people who value character buy and sell. I'd like to see people who are known to shill and partake in other unethical penny pinching practices be run off from this place.

 

Shilling is just wrong and I really can't see how there's even a debate on it. I have sold my share of stuff on ebay over the years always with a philosophy of my opening bid is my reserve. It has worked well enough when I had something of value to sell.

[slym2none]

I getcha now, thank you.

You're welcome. Sorry if my tone got strident. (Or if my stone got trident.)

 

Arthur Curry & The Stone Tridents - great band name.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

I wrote that if you bid on something, lets say your max bid is $100, just think to yourself that no matter what, the book cost you $100. That way, if its shilled up to $99 you wont go into a rage about the $100.

What you're talking about is bidding practice. That's a different subject than the question of whether shilling is wrong.

Yeah but

1. Someone who says "bid what you are willing to pay" doesn't have any less morals than you or I.

2. Stealing a car and shilling are completely different.

3. Nobody is making you pay $100 more after the $199 shill.

If you are talking about bidding on an item that is $100 with a $100 max bid and the shill bidder bids it up to $99 or whatever then that's terrible but you put that max bid at $100.

Any seller that shills his/her auctions should not be trusted, 100% agree. I also say bid what you are willing to pay and I have very high moral standards and should be trusted.

 

If we put that $100 bid in the last 5 seconds and win at the opening bid because no one bid against us, that is OK, right? Because then we avoid the shiller altogether.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

i figure any more caffeine and ill start crying about Game of Thrones last night.

 

Who had sex with whom that later ended up dead?

 

 

 

 

-slym