FF1 or Showcase 4...which is in 2nd place in the SA?

[budsbundy]

Nothing beats FF1

(In the opinion of a hardcore FF collector)

[RCheli]

Showcase #4 is much more important than FF #1. FF #1 wasn't even really a super-hero comic as much as it was an adventure story with guys with funky powers. It was an extension of Lee's late-50s Atlas sci-fi books (scientists gaining strange powers) that he did with Kirby/Heck/Ditko.

 

The same can be said for the Hulk and even Iron Man.

 

AF #15 was an obvious super-hero right from the start. As was Showcase #4.

 

[AlexanderM]

To me the most important SA books are AF15 > BB28/FF1 > Hulk 1 > SC4

 

Many would disagree re SC4. It is a very important book, but if we were to note the first appearance of Spidey it would be AF15 for instance. The first appearance of Flash is not SC4. That book is just the first appearance of the SA flash.

[AlexanderM]

Do this...

Ask any grade school kid to name superheroes and I can bet that Flash nor any member of FF come up.

 

You will hear:

Superman

Batman

Iron Man

Hulk

Spider-man

Thor (maybe)

 

Like it or not these are the kids who will be relieving you of your collections....

 

Good list.

I would remove Superman and Thor, and add Wolverine/X-Men

 

I love FF1 but I believe TOS 39 will prove to be the more important book over time based on pop culture and those who grew up with the character.

 

Of course, I am a bit biased but I really believe that behind AF15 is TOS 39 and then Hulk 1/FF1

 

I think the top 4 will be:

 

Superman

Batman

Spider-man

Wolverine

[namisgr]

I gotta go FF1 for the historical significance.

 

+1

[ChasingKingKirby]

In my opinion, the SA started with Tec 225, so that takes a lot of lustre off of SC4. SC4 is a retread of an existing character. FF1 launches the Marvel Universe.

 

FF1>Tec225>SC4

[VintageComics]

In my opinion, the SA started with Tec 225, so that takes a lot of lustre off of SC4. SC4 is a retread of an existing character. FF1 launches the Marvel Universe.

 

FF1>Tec225>SC4

 

One reason I never took Tec #225 as seriously as SC #4 in this debate is because of first hand accounts I've read by readers who actually saw the books on the newsstand.

 

It's easy form an opinion of how a book affected contemporaries in hindsight but it doesn't necessarily reflect what effect the book had on those that bought comics from the newsstands back in the day. It would be newsstand sales to children and not historians looking back which would define what shape the market took in 1956. For that reason it's worth considering how contemporaries reacted to those books.

 

I remember reading how our own Burntboy (who had an extensive OO collection) recollected his reaction to seeing Showcase #4 when it was on the newsstand and he was apparently captivated by it and remembered it being different from everything else around it. I searched for the exact post but couldn't find it.

 

I have a hard time seeing how someone would have the same reaction to a Tec #225.

 

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

In my opinion, the SA started with Tec 225, so that takes a lot of lustre off of SC4. SC4 is a retread of an existing character. FF1 launches the Marvel Universe.

 

FF1>Tec225>SC4

 

One reason I never took Tec #225 as seriously as SC #4 in this debate is because of first hand accounts I've read by readers who actually saw the books on the newsstand.

 

It's easy form an opinion of how a book affected contemporaries in hindsight but it doesn't necessarily reflect what effect the book had on those that bought comics from the newsstands back in the day. It would be newsstand sales to children and not historians looking back which would define what shape the market took in 1956. For that reason it's worth considering how contemporaries reacted to those books.

 

I remember reading how our own Burntboy (who had an extensive OO collection) recollected his reaction to seeing Showcase #4 when it was on the newsstand and he was apparently captivated by it and remembered it being different from everything else around it. I searched for the exact post but couldn't find it.

 

I have a hard time seeing how someone would have the same reaction to a Tec #225.

 

 

Well, yes. SC4 does have a better cover if that's what you mean.

 

Were judging importance of a book now, not in 1956. Tec 225 has a better case to be the book that kicks off the Silver age. Totally new superhero in the fuzzy period that separates GA from SA. SC4 is a much more ROMANTIC pick because it's a bigger character, (though a retread...), and the cover emanates change/transition. I've always been confused that this is even an argument, were talking about the FIRST APPEARANCE of a founding member of the JLA vs the reincarnation of an existing character. (albeit, also a founding member...) Don't get it, but I know others have strong opinions. :shrug:

[jjonahjameson1]

In my opinion, the SA started with Tec 225, so that takes a lot of lustre off of SC4. SC4 is a retread of an existing character. FF1 launches the Marvel Universe.

 

FF1>Tec225>SC4

 

One reason I never took Tec #225 as seriously as SC #4 in this debate is because of first hand accounts I've read by readers who actually saw the books on the newsstand.

 

It's easy form an opinion of how a book affected contemporaries in hindsight but it doesn't necessarily reflect what effect the book had on those that bought comics from the newsstands back in the day. It would be newsstand sales to children and not historians looking back which would define what shape the market took in 1956. For that reason it's worth considering how contemporaries reacted to those books.

 

I remember reading how our own Burntboy (who had an extensive OO collection) recollected his reaction to seeing Showcase #4 when it was on the newsstand and he was apparently captivated by it and remembered it being different from everything else around it. I searched for the exact post but couldn't find it.I have a hard time seeing how someone would have the same reaction to a Tec #225.

 

 

Roy, you and I weren't around when Showcase 4 was on the stands, but I have a hard time believing this book was so different from everything else around it. Perhaps the fellow you mentioned in your post didn't see the contemporary issues of World's Finest, Superman, Action Comics, Batman, Detective Comics, Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, Wonder Woman, etc on the racks/newstands or wherever it was that he purchased his comics?

[VintageComics]

Well, yes. SC4 does have a better cover if that's what you mean.

 

Were judging importance of a book now, not in 1956. Tec 225 has a better case to be the book that kicks off the Silver age. Totally new superhero in the fuzzy period that separates GA from SA. SC4 is a much more ROMANTIC pick because it's a bigger character, (though a retread...), and the cover emanates change/transition. I've always been confused that this is even an argument, were talking about the FIRST APPEARANCE of a founding member of the JLA vs the reincarnation of an existing character. (albeit, also a founding member...) Don't get it, but I know others have strong opinions. :shrug:

 

The confusion probably stems from which importance you are looking to define.

 

How do you define what characteristics make a book important today?

 

Martian Manhunter may have been a founding member of the JLA and Flash may have been a reboot, but which one captured buyers on the newsstand back in the day (even and especially buyers who didn't care about the past and only bought comics to read) and encouraged DC to expand the character?

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

Roy, you and I weren't around when Showcase 4 was on the stands, but I have a hard time believing this book was so different from everything else around it. Perhaps the fellow you mentioned in your post didn't see the contemporary issues of World's Finest, Superman, Action Comics, Batman, Detective Comics, Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, Wonder Woman, etc on the racks/newstands or wherever it was that he purchased his comics?

 

I can't speak for him, I can only remember what he said about Showcase #4. I'm pretty sure he was aware of everything being sold at the newsstands. He amassed quite an impressive OO collection that was sold for the most part through this forum. It consisted of both Marvel and DC books.

 

I can drop him a message and see if he wants to join the discussion.

 

 

EDIT: Sent him a PM. I don't know if he's still around or not. He used to be a regular here.

[HarveySwick]

Curious to see what board reactions are to what book is the runner up in the Silver Age, FF1 or Showcase 4?

 

Showcase 4 has been red hot lately. FF1 is always in demand.

 

Thoughts?

What is 1st? AF15 right?

[HarveySwick]

I've been reading the discussion after I replied -

 

There are some really valid points made that Showcase #4 essentially sparked the SA and FF #1 started the Marvel Age. I was just reading the responses from some very knowledgeable guys ( ) and was surprised that you guys would rank AF #15 lower than the both of them. As far as iconic characters in comics, the "Big 3" have to be Superman, Batman and Spider-man, right?

[Hepcat]

Nothing beats FF1

 

(In the opinion of a hardcore FF collector)

 

Aesthetically I prefer Fantastic Four 3. They got their iconic jumpsuits, the Fantasticar and "The Greatest Comic Magazine in the World" cover blurb, even though it wasn't - yet.

 

[Hepcat]

Tec 225 has a better case to be the book that kicks off the Silver age. Totally new superhero in the fuzzy period that separates GA from SA. SC4 is a much more ROMANTIC pick because it's a bigger character, (though a retread...), and the cover emanates change/transition. I've always been confused that this is even an argument, were talking about the FIRST APPEARANCE of a founding member of the JLA vs the reincarnation of an existing character. (albeit, also a founding member...

 

But the Martian Manhunter was nothing but a derivative character and ended up playing out his career as a permanent backup in the pages of Detective Even when given cover feature status in the secondary/tertiary House of Mystery title in 1964, he couldn't sustain the title and within ten issues lost his lead status to Robby Reed of all characters.

 

Flash, on the other hand, was one of the two characters that defined DC's Silver Age for me and other DC buyers at the time. (The other was Green Lantern.)

 

[Hepcat]

Roy, you and I weren't around when Showcase 4 was on the stands, but I have a hard time believing this book was so different from everything else around it. Perhaps the fellow you mentioned in your post didn't see the contemporary issues of World's Finest, Superman, Action Comics, Batman, Detective Comics, Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, Wonder Woman, etc on the racks/newstands or wherever it was that he purchased his comics?

 

Burntboy was the real deal as a buyer/collector! He amassed the original owner collection that now bears the Sid's Luncheonette pedigree. See these two threads:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=5399942&Searchpage=2&Main=246748&Words=Luncheonette&topic=0&Search=true#Post5399942

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6160369&fpart=1

 

 

[ChasingKingKirby]

Tec 225 has a better case to be the book that kicks off the Silver age. Totally new superhero in the fuzzy period that separates GA from SA. SC4 is a much more ROMANTIC pick because it's a bigger character, (though a retread...), and the cover emanates change/transition. I've always been confused that this is even an argument, were talking about the FIRST APPEARANCE of a founding member of the JLA vs the reincarnation of an existing character. (albeit, also a founding member...

 

But the Martian Manhunter was nothing but a derivative character and ended up playing out his career as a permanent backup in the pages of Detective Even when given cover feature status in the secondary/tertiary House of Mystery title in 1964, he couldn't sustain the title and within ten issues lost his lead status to Robby Reed of all characters.

 

Flash, on the other hand, was one of the two characters that defined DC's Silver Age for me and other DC buyers at the time. (The other was Green Lantern.)

 

 

So does that mean Importance = Popularity? To me, the importance of Tec 225 is it's place in history as the turning point of DC ushering in new/different characters for the Silver age. Since Tec 225 is an earlier start, to me it's more important. Obviously, SC4 is the more popular and valuable book. But does that by default make it the more important book? Not to me.

 

 

[jjonahjameson1]

Tec 225 has a better case to be the book that kicks off the Silver age. Totally new superhero in the fuzzy period that separates GA from SA. SC4 is a much more ROMANTIC pick because it's a bigger character, (though a retread...), and the cover emanates change/transition. I've always been confused that this is even an argument, were talking about the FIRST APPEARANCE of a founding member of the JLA vs the reincarnation of an existing character. (albeit, also a founding member...

 

But the Martian Manhunter was nothing but a derivative character and ended up playing out his career as a permanent backup in the pages of Detective Even when given cover feature status in the secondary/tertiary House of Mystery title in 1964, he couldn't sustain the title and within ten issues lost his lead status to Robby Reed of all characters.

 

Flash, on the other hand, was one of the two characters that defined DC's Silver Age for me and other DC buyers at the time. (The other was Green Lantern.)

 

 

If MM's appearance in Tec 225 was a failure, would Showcase 4 exist?

[VintageComics]

Tec 225 has a better case to be the book that kicks off the Silver age. Totally new superhero in the fuzzy period that separates GA from SA. SC4 is a much more ROMANTIC pick because it's a bigger character, (though a retread...), and the cover emanates change/transition. I've always been confused that this is even an argument, were talking about the FIRST APPEARANCE of a founding member of the JLA vs the reincarnation of an existing character. (albeit, also a founding member...

 

But the Martian Manhunter was nothing but a derivative character and ended up playing out his career as a permanent backup in the pages of Detective Even when given cover feature status in the secondary/tertiary House of Mystery title in 1964, he couldn't sustain the title and within ten issues lost his lead status to Robby Reed of all characters.

 

Flash, on the other hand, was one of the two characters that defined DC's Silver Age for me and other DC buyers at the time. (The other was Green Lantern.)

 

 

So does that mean Importance = Popularity? To me, the importance of Tec 225 is it's place in history as the turning point of DC ushering in new/different characters for the Silver age. Since Tec 225 is an earlier start, to me it's more important. Obviously, SC4 is the more popular and valuable book. But does that by default make it the more important book? Not to me.

 

 

..but the question that comes to my mind is what spawns importance for a specific time period? Popularity on the newsstand is the only answer. Without popularity on the newsstand you don't have future issues / titles.

 

Kids buy tons of copies, publishers print more stories, they continue to sell, publishers integrate characters into their own titles as well as groups.

 

Flash was obviously more important that Manhunter.

 

Someone important back then doesn't necessarily translate into importance today.

 

FF #1 was considered more important than Spidey for a few decades. Ditto for Captain Marvel over Superman. Doesn't seem to be the case any more but it doesn't negate the past.

 

Sure Superman and Spidey are more important today, but where were they in their respective time periods?

 

That's why I initially qualified it and said that the confusion probably stems from which importance you are looking to define.

[Hepcat]

There are some really valid points made that Showcase #4 essentially sparked the SA and FF #1 started the Marvel Age. I was just reading the responses from some very knowledgeable guys ( ) and was surprised that you guys would rank AF #15 lower than the both of them. As far as iconic characters in comics, the "Big 3" have to be Superman, Batman and Spider-man, right?

 

Oh absolutely! Spider-Man is a great hero and is now right up there with Superman and Batman. Some may even argue that Spidey has now nosed ahead.

 

But had it not been for Showcase 4 and then Fantastic Four 1 and the revolution in super-hero comics they precipitated, Spider-Man might not have been launched in Amazing Fantasy 15, if at all.... There may have been no Second Heroic Age, no Silver Age, no Marvel Age of comics without Showcase 4 and then Fantastic Four 1. Imagine that if you can.