ASM 300 Appreciation/ Club Thread 12 12

[valiantman]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

Speaking for myself, I would not pay a premium for newsstand. However, if given the choice I would take the newsstand over the regular.

Right. Any seller who has a newsstand CGC graded copy who only gets direct edition money for it sold too low.

 

So Valiantman are you saying there should be a premium or is an established premium for the newsstand copies?

I'm saying that there are a lot of buyers who don't care... so the general market is "no difference" for direct vs. newsstand.

 

But there are also a few buyers who do care about high grade ASM #300 newsstand...

and newsstand sellers don't have to sell at the regular direct price.

Sellers of newsstand can ask for a little more, wait a little, and they'll likely get more.

 

GPA (and also watchcount.com) says this CGC 8.5 newsstand seller got the full $220 asking price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/361428914577

 

The other two sales in 2016 for CGC 8.5 (direct editions) have averaged $137.

An auction for the newsstand might have ended around the average price...

but the seller had a higher asking price for the newsstand, and he got it.

[Jaydogrules]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

[valiantman]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

Except where I quantified it in the post before yours.

[Jaydogrules]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

Except where I quantified it in the post before yours.

 

So if I also cherry pick a few data points where a newsstand went for the same price or less than a direct can we put this myth to bed again and once and for all ?

 

-J.

[jreezy]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

 

Agreed.

[valiantman]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

Except where I quantified it in the post before yours.

 

So if I also cherry pick a few data points where a newsstand went for the same price or less than a direct can we put this myth to bed again and once and for all ?

 

-J.

 

Let's see...

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man key issue (#300), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You don't like it.

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man unimportant issue (#667), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You love it.

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man unimportant issue (#678), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You love it.

 

Seems like the only difference is that you only love unimportant ASM books.

 

[jreezy]

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

Except where I quantified it in the post before yours.

 

So if I also cherry pick a few data points where a newsstand went for the same price or less than a direct can we put this myth to bed again and once and for all ?

 

-J.

 

Let's see...

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man key issue (#300), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You don't like it.

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man unimportant issue (#667), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You love it.

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man unimportant issue (#678), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You love it.

 

Seems like the only difference is that you only love unimportant ASM books.

 

Actually I "love" ultra rare and sought after ASM variants with a quantifiable and demonstrative scarcity.

 

Not sure what that has to do with this conversation though.

 

This is a conversation about the promulgation of the myth that "newsstand" versions of this common as dirt, mass produced in the hundreds of thousands key book carry a premium to the direct versions, when they absolutely do not. Newsstands are common as dirt. Direct versions are as common as dirt. It is a common as dirt book in all versions (not that the "newsstand" constitutes a "variant" or alternate version the way, um..... actual variants do) To wit...is the "newsstand" version a "variant" of the direct version, or vice versa? Who knows? Who cares? They're both common as dirt.

 

To purport a consistent or provable "premium" for either is a 100% falsehood and is easily debunked. You cherry picked an example that proved nothing. I can cherry pick an example that proves the exact opposite.

 

So what does that mean?

 

It means nothing.

 

-J.

 

PS: No "premium" for NM 98's in "newsstand" form either. Sorry.

[valiantman]

Just because YOU don't recognize a premium for newsstand version of ASM #300 and NM #98 doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

Studying these books for at least a decade, it's obvious that there are a lot more CGC 9.8 direct editions.

The direct is more common. The newsstand is less common. That's a fact.

Of course there are people in the market who don't care. No one said "100%".

You're trying to disprove something I never said.

There are SOME people who care.

 

You are dismissing all of the people who care because YOU don't care. Great job.

 

This is still accurate:

I'm saying that there are a lot of buyers who don't care... so the general market is "no difference" for direct vs. newsstand.

 

But there are also a few buyers who do care about high grade ASM #300 newsstand...

and newsstand sellers don't have to sell at the regular direct price.

Sellers of newsstand can ask for a little more, wait a little, and they'll likely get more.

 

[Lonzilla]

I will say this about newsstand copies because I used to load up on potential key issues when the LCS was sold out (ASM 252, MTU 141, Punisher #1 etc): Unless you bought them at the 7-11, Wawa or wherever as soon as they were unpacked, they were handled by several people before you and those spinner racks could be very very unkind.

In the mid to late 1980's there were 2 or 3 comic shops that I could get to in 20 minutes. At the same time there a dozen convenience stores that sold comics and were a 5-10 minute drive.

I don't think that there are less newsstand copies of copper age books than direct ones, but they are harder to find in perfect condition.

Back then if you bought 2 copies of a book, a direct and a newsstand and one was to keep and one was to read, you always preserved the direct one. There was a snobbery among collectors that was anti-UPC code, like "I get my books at the comic shop and not at the 7-11"

I was guilty of it as much as anyone

[revat]

I'd pay a premium for a newsstand over direct for the CGC 9.8. Both 'versions' are pretty common for the time, but for the most part there's a 'perception' that newsstands are not as available in ultra high grade because they're more likely to be pawed over by the masses than immediately bagged and boarded by collectors buying from a comic shop or direct mailer. Whether the numbers match up, I don't know, but I think the ANY comic from 30 years ago is likely to have a lower percentage of newsstand comics in ultra high grade than their direct counterparts, because of the behavior of people who buy from newsstands, who are more likely to be kids, or commuters, more likely to be read immediately, or have the comics bagged with groceries or milk, and carried a certain distance. Not to mention the actual shelving or spinner racks were not as conducive to keeping conditions high.

 

For those reasons, whether TRUE or NOT, I PERCEIVE that ultra high grade newsies are harder to get for that era (and subsequent eras), and therefore would pay a premium. I get that that this philosophy doesn't apply to everyone in the market, and that the premium isn't necessarily consistent, but I think it's there. One cent or one dollar is a premium too, so to categorically deny that ANY PREMIUM exists and never exists is a bit to much of a blanket for me. And a lot of collectors really are completionists for things they're passionate about, so they'll go after things like newsstands or price variants not because they love newsstands or price variants (although it may be true), but just because they want all the versions of a given comic or set of comics. And if supply is less (or perceived to be less), that will naturally raise the price.

[Jaydogrules]

Just because YOU don't recognize a premium for newsstand version of ASM #300 and NM #98 doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

Studying these books for at least a decade, it's obvious that there are a lot more CGC 9.8 direct editions.

The direct is more common. The newsstand is less common. That's a fact.

Of course there are people in the market who don't care. No one said "100%".

You're trying to disprove something I never said.

There are SOME people who care.

 

You are dismissing all of the people who care because YOU don't care. Great job.

 

This is still accurate:

I'm saying that there are a lot of buyers who don't care... so the general market is "no difference" for direct vs. newsstand.

 

But there are also a few buyers who do care about high grade ASM #300 newsstand...

and newsstand sellers don't have to sell at the regular direct price.

Sellers of newsstand can ask for a little more, wait a little, and they'll likely get more.

 

Saying that there is no consistent, provable, or quantifiable "premium" observed in the market either way is not the same as "dismissing" people who care about a newsstand copy over a direct copy one way or another or vice versa. I don't know why you are choosing to use such inflammatory language, especially since you have heard other boardies say that even if they might "prefer" a newsstand copy, that they still will not go out of their way to pay "extra" for the bar code.

 

The reality remains that if YOU decide to pay an infinitesimal "premium" for a copy one way or another, do not automatically expect to receive one if you should ever decide to sell the book yourself. Because if you do, your copy will probably sit.

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Actually I "love" ultra rare and sought after ASM variants with a quantifiable and demonstrative scarcity.

 

This is not an accurate characterization.

 

First, the scarcity is NOT "quantifiable", because you don't know the print runs, nor do you know extant copies.

 

It is quantifiable, to an extent, as a SLABBED book (because resubs must be taken into account, always), but it is not a blanket "quantifiable", as you assert here.

 

And it is "demonstrably" scarce only as it relates to market appearances. Market appearances only tell one part of the story, and is, at very best, an incomplete part of it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just because YOU don't recognize a premium for newsstand version of ASM #300 and NM #98 doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

Studying these books for at least a decade, it's obvious that there are a lot more CGC 9.8 direct editions.

The direct is more common. The newsstand is less common. That's a fact.

Of course there are people in the market who don't care. No one said "100%".

You're trying to disprove something I never said.

There are SOME people who care.

 

You are dismissing all of the people who care because YOU don't care. Great job.

 

This is still accurate:

I'm saying that there are a lot of buyers who don't care... so the general market is "no difference" for direct vs. newsstand.

 

But there are also a few buyers who do care about high grade ASM #300 newsstand...

and newsstand sellers don't have to sell at the regular direct price.

Sellers of newsstand can ask for a little more, wait a little, and they'll likely get more.

 

Saying that there is no consistent, provable, or quantifiable "premium" observed in the market either way is not the same as "dismissing" people who care about a newsstand copy over a direct copy one way or another or vice versa. I don't know why you are choosing to use such inflammatory language, especially since you have heard other boardies say that even if they might "prefer" a newsstand copy, that they still will not go out of their way to pay "extra" for the bar code.

 

The reality remains that if YOU decide to pay an infinitesimal "premium" for a copy one way or another, do not automatically expect to receive one if you should ever decide to sell the book yourself. Because if you do, your copy will probably sit.

 

-J.

 

Didn't you JUST praise Valiantman for his fine data gathering skills...and now, because he takes a position with which you disagree, you dismiss those very skills....?

 

Seems a little odd.

 

And, what "inflammatory language" did he use...? I don't see any. Would you mind pointing it out?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just wondering if there is a price premium for newsstand versions of ASM 300 in CGC 9.8?

 

No. Any alleged "premium" is completely unquantifiable, random, and unprovable.

 

-J.

Except where I quantified it in the post before yours.

 

So if I also cherry pick a few data points where a newsstand went for the same price or less than a direct can we put this myth to bed again and once and for all ?

 

-J.

 

Let's see...

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man key issue (#300), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You don't like it.

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man unimportant issue (#667), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You love it.

 

There are multiple versions of an Amazing Spider-man unimportant issue (#678), with one of them seen less often in the market at some kind of 1:X ratio.

 

You love it.

 

Seems like the only difference is that you only love unimportant ASM books.

 

Actually I "love" ultra rare and sought after ASM variants with a quantifiable and demonstrative scarcity.

 

Not sure what that has to do with this conversation though.

 

This is a conversation about the promulgation of the myth that "newsstand" versions of this common as dirt, mass produced in the hundreds of thousands key book carry a premium to the direct versions, when they absolutely do not. Newsstands are common as dirt. Direct versions are as common as dirt. It is a common as dirt book in all versions (not that the "newsstand" constitutes a "variant" or alternate version the way, um..... actual variants do) To wit...is the "newsstand" version a "variant" of the direct version, or vice versa? Who knows? Who cares? They're both common as dirt.

 

To purport a consistent or provable "premium" for either is a 100% falsehood and is easily debunked. You cherry picked an example that proved nothing. I can cherry pick an example that proves the exact opposite.

 

So what does that mean?

 

It means nothing.

 

-J.

 

PS: No "premium" for NM 98's in "newsstand" form either. Sorry.

 

Since "common as dirt" has no real meaning (other than, of course, its literal meaning, which would render the statement untrue), would you mind refraining from such subjective phrases and use more accurate language when describing these things?

 

Just a request, if you can't, that's fine.

[Martin Sinescu]

FWIW I'm part of the 300 club and I have a 9.8 newsstand for which I happily paid a premium (about 10% more than directs were selling for at the time), basically for the exact reasons mentioned (relative scarcity in high grade versus directs).

 

Really, though, It's disappointing that CGC hasn't started differentiating newsstand versions on the majority of books so that we could have some more accurate data on how many exist in high grade for these discussions. They're still hit-or-miss in marking Canadian Editions, but at least they do acknowledge the difference. I understand that there's already a large graded sample out there which doesn't denote this, but after a few years, some accurate data would hopefully start to emerge, especially if people resubmitted their books to have the designation added. If a segment of the market has already gone this way and if it continues to gain momentum, at what point in time does it become justifiable to start labeling them this way? Guess I'm just a "no time like the present" type, but the longer they act like there's no difference, the harder it's going to be to make a meaningful assessment going forward.

 

What's worse is on books like Batman #497 where they have the statement "Newsstand edition exists without black outer cover" on all copies. So, even on a book where there is a significant difference, they still just cop out and put a disclaimer like "eh, this copy could have the outer cover and then again it might not, you figure it out." Ugh. How much simpler would it be to just say "Newsstand Edition (No black outer cover)" on the ones that don't have it so that we could see how many of the 1125 copies are newsstands and ebay sellers that have the common direct wouldn't list theirs as "newsstand" because it says it on the label?

 

[valiantman]

The current eBay ASM 300 slab list:

 

131 active items

 

Direct Editions

9.8 = 17 copies

9.6 = 30 copies

9.4 = 28 copies

9.2 = 14 copies

9.0 = 6 copies

8.5 = 7 copies

8.0 = 3 copies

7.5 = 4 copies

6.0 = 1 copy

4.5 = 1 copy

Total = 111 copies

Average Grade = 9.23

 

Newsstand Editions

9.8 = 1 copy

9.6 = 0 copies

9.4 = 5 copies

9.2 = 1 copy

9.0 = 2 copies

8.5 = 4 copies

8.0 = 3 copies

7.5 = 0 copies

7.0 = 1 copy

6.5 = 1 copy

6.0 = 1 copy

5.5 = 1 copy

Total = 20 copies

Average Grade = 8.35

 

"high grade" (9.2 or higher): 7 newsstand vs. 89 direct

Ratio: 1 "high grade" newsstand for every 12.7 "high grade" direct

At 9.6 or higher, the ratio would be 1 newsstand for every 47 direct.

 

35% of newsstand at 9.2 or higher, 80% of direct at 9.2 or higher.

5% of newsstand at 9.6 or higher, 42% of direct at 9.6 or higher.

 

________________________________

 

When I did a check in March 2014 and posted it on the board, I scrolled through 60 CGC ASM #300 auctions and 55 were direct, 5 were UPC. So that was 1 newsstand for every 11 direct on a random day almost two years ago.

[Jaydogrules]

This is all well and good but none of it has (or has ever) translated in to any quantifiable, consistent, or verifiable "premium" realised in prices either way.

While the data is certainly sound, it is, at least in this case, irrelevant.

 

-J.

 

 

[valiantman]

This is all well and good but none of it has (or has ever) translated in to any quantifiable, consistent, or verifiable "premium" realised in prices either way.

While the data is certainly sound, it is, at least in this case, irrelevant.

 

-J.

Irrelevant? It's 131 data points in a public segment of the market... eBay.

That's statistically valid to 95% confidence, if that is supposedly what you're asking.

(No one with "dog" and "rules" in their name has ever been taken serious as a statistician.

Primarily because so few with "dog" and "rules" in their name have finished high school.)

 

Has ANY part of the CGC market ever translated to any quantifiable, consistent, or verifiable anything?

Carved in stone, take it to the bank, verify it, consistently. What would do that? Multiple data points? Got 'em.

It's a market. Ups and downs. Things are sold too low, things are overpaid. Past results are no guarantee of future performance. Blah, blah, etc.

 

Why are you requesting some level of proof here that isn't required anywhere else?

Multiple guys have stated that there is a premium of some kind for newsstand ASM #300.

The data shows that there are fewer in high grade... a fact.

You said a premium for newsstand is a myth. There is a premium of some kind, it's no myth.

Fewer in high grade equals a premium everywhere else. But not ASM #300, huh?

 

"Irrelevant" is the correct word. Unfortunately, it applies to your opinion.

[valiantman]

P.S. While I'm at it... there's no way someone who hasn't finished high school would own ALL those books in their signature, scanned with different scanners, in various lighting conditions, and valued so wildly differently. If it was an auction, it would be scam city. Since it's a collection, we're supposed to be impressed by it, and not point out the obvious. He just-so-happens major keys, minor keys, and brand-new-worth-something-because-they're-rare-and-probably-purchased-for-$50-or-less comics. He has a world class collection worth in the high six-figures, but he's genuinely worried someone is getting $10 extra for a newsstand ASM #300 somewhere. Shhhh... I shouldn't be typing what we're all thinking.

 

Poser dog rules.