THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[lou_fine]

5 hours ago, Glassman10 said:

I just have to stop there and see what kind of effort it actually takes to go to Metropolis, Highgrade,SoCal, Dave and Adam's, whichever and count up the AF15's and note what prices those sites are asking. There just aren't really that many copies in play at any given time. It's not like we're talking 400 books. It seems to me that if GPA really wanted to supply the information, they could just get on the phone and call any of those dealers.

I believe the business model of GPA is to report on prices for all applicable comic book sales and not just for AF 15 only. 

If it was just for AF 15 only, what you are proposing is indeed perfectly feasible.  If it is for the thousands or tens of thousands of other titles also sold on a monthly basis, not so much.  The real comic book world is just so much more than AF 15, but from spending time on these boards here I can understand why that might not be the case for some people here. 

[lou_fine]

35 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

If somebody can post the link to the 5.0 in question, I will email GPA about it myself.  

-J.

Okay Jay, here you go:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=700363

Be sure to report back to us here on what you find out. 

[lou_fine]

39 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Yes that is definitely an advantage when it is the same grade.  Unfortunately as a grading company you really don't want your books to be constantly considered overgraded.  That is a very had reputation to shake.

+1

Most definitely a very bad reputation to shake.

From a business point of view, however, CGC had the business "smarts" and took the fast, simple, and dirty road to give themselves a leg up once it looked like the other company was gaining market share last year. 

The fastest and simplest way to make the other guys look bad is to tightened up your own grading to the point that its almost undergrading.  Unfortunately, although you do make the other guys look bad, you also kind of invalidate the grades of your own books that were previously graded in the past.  Based upon some PM's that I have received, there are quite a few very unhappy speculators who have been hammered on some of their resubmits in the last year or so. 

Grading to an ever changing business agenda is unfortunately sometimes more important than grading consistently. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by lou_fine

[chrisco37]

2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Grading to an ever changing business agenda is unfortunately sometimes more important than grading consistently

This. 

[VintageComics]

50 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

53 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Yes that is definitely an advantage when it is the same grade.  Unfortunately as a grading company you really don't want your books to be constantly considered overgraded.  That is a very had reputation to shake.

+1

The market has generally decided that the two companies are not like for like when it comes to grading so a noticeable discount is routinely baked in to Voldy slabs.  

It depends on the venue, eye appeal, type of book, type of transaction.

Some books sell for record numbers regardless of the label (if people buy the book and not the label) if the book looks better than the grade or is a tough book.

More common books at auction may sell at a slight discount in either label.

And certainly there are notable sales in either holder.

It's no different if it's a PGX holder. If there is value in the holder someone will pay strong money for it.

Voldy was a bit loose when they came of the gates but that is no longer the case from what I've seen.

[blazingbob]

29 minutes ago, chrisco37 said:

This. 

People should look at grading companies and think like grading companies.

Their goal is to get as many submissions on a book as possible.

How do you do this?  Grade tight at first (1).  

Create the crack out game (2).

Loosen a bit (3).

Introduce pressing to the market place (4).  

Crack out,  grade again (5).

Leave some defects in on the first press  (6),  invites a second press and upgrade attempt.

Introduce Signature series (7)

Introduce the crossover grading of other companies books (8)

Throw some tightening and loosening (9+) and multiple that by a grading tier.

Take the emotion out of it,  don't look at the moral compass, think $$$$$.  If you don't think that is discussed at a business meeting then you are not thinking like a grading company.

Casino's are all bells, whistles,  distractions to separate you from your money.  If you don't think that the Grading company "casino model" isn't at play you clearly have not witnessed On-site grading.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by blazingbob

[chrisco37]

4 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

People should look at grading companies and think like grading companies.

Their goal is to get as many submissions on a book as possible.

How do you do this?  Grade tight at first (1).  

Create the crack out game (2).

Loosen a bit (3).

Introduce pressing to the market place (4).  

Crack out,  grade again (5).

Leave some defects in on the first press  (6),  invites a second press and upgrade attempt.

Throw some tightening and loosening (7+) and multiple that by a grading tier.

If you don't think that is discussed at a business meeting then you are not thinking like a grading company.

 

Absolutely.  We've discussed this very thing on the boards many times and I remember you saying similar things over the years.   With the comic grading, you've always suggested to look at coins and how the grading there "evolved" over the years.  CPR was there to see from the beginning if you looked at coin grading. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by chrisco37

[blazingbob]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Bob;

Greatly appreciate your positive confirmation here. 

Now I understand completely why Metro didn't bother to include their 5.0 sale on GPA. 

Once they found out that the book was in your hands, they simply didn't want to go on record that they only managed to get a meagre $57K for the book when another dealer like you will be able to get so much more for the buyer.  It's a case of they simply didn't want you to one upmanship them. 

While I appreciate the joke the fact is that the 5.0 selling for $57K on Comiconnect sort of kicked off the AF #15 price escalation.  As with any key price appreciation somebody has to go first.  This buyer did and subsequently higher prices have been popping on all grades.  

[Gotham Kid]

53 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

1 hour ago, blazingbob said:

Yes that is definitely an advantage when it is the same grade.  Unfortunately as a grading company you really don't want your books to be constantly considered overgraded.  That is a very had reputation to shake.

+1

Most definitely a very bad reputation to shake.

+2 on this

[lou_fine]

2 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

Bob;

Greatly appreciate your positive confirmation here. 

Now I understand completely why Metro didn't bother to include their 5.0 sale on GPA. 

Once they found out that the book was in your hands, they simply didn't want to go on record that they only managed to get a meagre $57K for the book when another dealer like you will be able to get so much more for the buyer.  It's a case of they simply didn't want you to one upmanship them. 

While I appreciate the joke the fact is that the 5.0 selling for $57K on Comiconnect sort of kicked off the AF #15 price escalation.  As with any key price appreciation somebody has to go first.  This buyer did and subsequently higher prices have been popping on all grades.  

Well, it's best if we keep this between you, me , and Roy then as I believe it was Jay or somebody like that who claimed this price acceleration was in place well before the CC $57K sale, as that sale was only part of a continuing trend that had started earlier. 

We wouldn't want to start up that little discussion here again. 

[Gotham Kid]

47 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Voldy was a bit loose when they came of the gates but that is no longer the case from what I've seen.

As one of MANY examples of recent books that start out in a CGC holder then find their way into a cbcs holder, they took a Tec 29 1.8 Brittle from CGC ( graded earlier this year ) and turned it into a 3.0 slight brittle a couple months later. As a 1.8 it sold for more than as a 3.0.

So no. Not in my book.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Gotham Kid

[Glassman10]

well, it gets even worse if they then do tighten up their grading since the perception will be that the street perception  will assume it's still high and now it gets a double whammy  having gotten a lower grade that is assumed to be higher than it should be.

[blazingbob]

The problem of having to grade loose shows you couldn't compete on price and turnaround times which is how you got started in the first place.

Collector's or dealers will run to the grading company that will give them the highest grade for the cheapest cost.  But,  if that higher grade/lower cost doesn't translate into higher sales number the risk goes up and your reward goes down.  You then have to pay to get the book back into the CGC holder which is not a cost you want to incur.   Which is great for the company that is considered the market leader because they get another grading fee.

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by blazingbob

[VintageComics]

9 minutes ago, Gotham Kid said:

As one of MANY examples of books that started out in a CGC holder then found their way into a cbcs holder, they took a Tec 29 1.8 Brittle from CGC ( graded earlier this year ) and turned it into a 3.0 slight brittle a couple months later. As a 1.8 it sold for more than as a 3.0.

So no. Not in my book.

I don't follow lower grade books much.

If the book and the grade were recognized and discussed on here though, I can see that affecting auction prices moving forward for any particular book as many people read what is written here.

The higher grade stuff I do follow, I know has been crossed over into the same grade, between books (like the AF #15 9.0 and the Hulk #1 8.5 CBCS copies that sold in the past year).

But again, there is a variance in both companies.

I guess if you're spending big money, do your research and buy what you feel comfortable buying.

[comicquant]

34 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

People should look at grading companies and think like grading companies.

Their goal is to get as many submissions on a book as possible.

How do you do this?  Grade tight at first (1).  

Create the crack out game (2).

Loosen a bit (3).

Introduce pressing to the market place (4).  

Crack out,  grade again (5).

Leave some defects in on the first press  (6),  invites a second press and upgrade attempt.

Introduce Signature series (7)

Introduce the crossover grading of other companies books (8)

Throw some tightening and loosening (9+) and multiple that by a grading tier.

Take the emotion out of it,  don't look at the moral compass, think $$$$$.  If you don't think that is discussed at a business meeting then you are not thinking like a grading company.

Casino's are all bells, whistles,  distractions to separate you from your money.  If you don't think that the Grading company "casino model" isn't at play you clearly have not witnessed On-site grading.

 

I appreciate this being outlined because I've brought this up before and received the tin-foil hat stare.  This isn't about having moral flexibility, its about strategic planning.

[paul747]

4 hours ago, blazingbob said:

Assuming that dealers have databases that can generate extracts of sales which I am guessing many don't they would not be calling me.

Also some of you assume that some of the biggest dealers are tracking their sales.  You would be surprised at how many don't.   

It would take me less then 5 mins to put together a daily/weekly or monthly extract of CGC sales.

But as Roy stated in a earlier post I am NOT in business to make you money (You is not you Chris).

I am not sure if people see that dealers need to buy copies of books that they are selling.  If you are raising the sale price of the book you are also raising your cost.  And with more and more "weekend warriors" needing to squeeze every dollar out of a book that job gets harder every day.  Add on top the expense of finding those books and I ask myself why am I helping my competitors price their inventory on my hard work.   Because I'm a nice guy?  This is business and I run it like a business.

And some of you think that "But bob,  if you report your sales you can get more on the next copy".  Not when the GPA buyer mentality is that I don't want to set a GPA record,  I want a GPA discount.  I call that the Slow bowl pricing flush.   Watch the GPA price slowly swirl lower.  Eventually they want you to buy at Retail and sell at Wholesale.  How do I know this?  Years of conversations with buyers using 12 month average,  90 day average,  last sale.  Anything to get the "Look what I just got this for Convention stroll".  

All this comes from the years of the Dealer/collector battle.  You see it all the time.  Did I get over on him?  Did he get over on me?  What,  I got screwed?  Yeah man,  I'm going to sell this on ebay for $500 and I paid $25,  high fives for everyone.   

 

 

 

But your knowledge(data base) is a big plus, if your selling a book thru you on consignment.

[dem1138]

28 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

The problem of having to grade loose shows you couldn't compete on price and turnaround times which is how you got started in the first place.

Collector's or dealers will run to the grading company that will give them the highest grade for the cheapest cost.  But,  if that higher grade/lower cost doesn't translate into higher sales number the risk goes up and your reward goes down.  You then have to pay to get the book back into the CGC holder which is not a cost you want to incur.   Which is great for the company that is considered the market leader because they get another grading fee.

 

 

 

I think we all believe, or at least have the inclination that, the other company made CGC better.  It kickstarted them hiring more people, improving TATs, and taking greater interest in customer concerns.  

[Jaydogrules]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Okay Jay, here you go:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=700363

Be sure to report back to us here on what you find out. 

Thanks! Email sent.   I'll let you know what I hear back.   They are usually pretty fast with their responses to error inquiries.  

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Okay Jay, here you go:

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=700363

Be sure to report back to us here on what you find out. 

So evidently the sale was inadvertently omitted by Vincent on his sales report to GPA for that auction.   

The oversight has been remedied, however, and as of now the sale is reflected on GPA. 

-J.

[jabats]

3 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

So evidently the sale was inadvertently omitted by Vincent on his sales report to GPA for that auction.   

The oversight has been remedied, however, and as of now the sale is reflected on GPA. 

-J.

So much for all our wild theories