Warlock First Appearance - Marvel Premiere 1

[joe_collector]

By that logic, Carol Danvers and Ms Marvel are the same person, so are Bill Foster and Black Goliath, Patsy Walker and Hellcat, and a zillion other old, forgotten characters that Marvel has adapted into a new superhero.

 

I'm just saying that if you're a fan of Ms Marvel, going back and collecting the previous appearances of Carol Danvers is not going to give you more Ms. Marvel, as it's a new character created years after Danvers appeared as a co-star in CM.

 

Same with Adam Warlock, and the character in MP 1 is a totally new one, and has almost nothing to do with the long-forgotten Him of the SA. Marvel just didn't want to pay royalties so they took Him and totally created a new character, concept and powers around it to save money.

 

But like others have said, if you're a fan of Warlock, then Marvel Premiere 1 is the book to own.

[___]

As I posted in the similar thread over in the silver section:

 

I love debates like this, it's what makes the comic hobby so fun! I love how much passion folks have on every side of these debates.

 

Looking for clarification on other characters:

 

What other ones are similar to this? I can't think of other marvel characters that had so many cameos (according to Cgc labels) ff66, 67, thor 163, 164, before 165 than moving on to MP1.

 

Who defines what an actual cameo is? I still am a firm believer that just because it's limited to one page doesn't mean it's a cameo. A lot can happen in 4-8 panels. Now if it's a single splash page on last page with mininmal dialogue, yeah that's a cameo.

 

Hulk 180 vs 181 comparison. Does anyone have a list of other characters that there is or was a debate in true first appearance?

[joe_collector]

Hulk 180 vs 181 comparison. Does anyone have a list of other characters that there is or was a debate in true first appearance?

 

There are lots of characters who popped in as a "final panel surprise reveal" similar to Wolverine. Others like Venom are shown in a single panel before their full reveal.

 

One example I remember is Taskmaster.

 

One that OS clearly dropped the ball on is Alpha Flight. X-men 120 is clearly their first appearance, and they are on the cover, they fight the X-Men the entire issue, and are identified by name at the start, but but apparently because of the "whole team reveal" in X-Men 121, OS somehow continues to call it a "cameo".

[AGGIEZ]

It was probably changed due to one of the countless nerd smackdowns on the same subject.

 

I'll buy you a clue, since you obviously need one.

 

CGC is a business, they are not your friends (as some of you seem to think), and they make money through submissions that are driven by seller and buyer demand. If you give dealers, sellers and speculators even more cause to buy and submit those books (through enhanced promotion on the label - which *does* sell books), then you create more revenue and potential profits for your business.

 

And it's SMART BUSINESS to do this, and if I ran CGC, I'd be constantly updating the label contents and notes to appeal to the greatest number of Movie Speculators I could, as good or bad, those drive submissions.

 

If word got out about a Eddie "Iron Man" March movie with him taking over for IM and his brother Marty March as the Guardsman, I would immediately catalogue and update the "First Appearance of Eddie March", "First Appearance of Marty March", "First Appearance of Eddie March in Iron Man costume", etc., etc. It's just Smart Business .

 

Is this really that difficult for people like you to grasp?

 

 

You're such an individual_without_enough_empathy...and you're wrong in this case. It must suck to be you...

 

 

[Heronext]

I propose a "Committee on Key Notations"

[Dr. Balls]

Him is NOT Warlock by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I agree. I tend to think of FF 67 and Thor 165 as stories featuring a prototype character that seemed more influenced by the whole AIM/Advanced Scientist/Secret Organization narrative that Kirby/Lee created and frequently used.

 

For me, Adam Warlock - who he truly is in the Marvel Universe - is what's in Marvel Premiere #1, and his ties to FF 67 and Thor 165 are very superficial.

 

HIM never made it past Thor 165-166 and languinshed for a couple years until Roy Thomas wanted to bring a biblical story to comics, and HIM just happened to fit the idea. It doesn't seem like Lee/Kirby had anything in store for HIM at all. He just shot back into space and that was it (unless there is some appearance between Thor and MP1 I don't know about).

[jaeldubyoo]

It was probably changed due to one of the countless nerd smackdowns on the same subject.

 

I'll buy you a clue, since you obviously need one.

 

CGC is a business, they are not your friends (as some of you seem to think), and they make money through submissions that are driven by seller and buyer demand. If you give dealers, sellers and speculators even more cause to buy and submit those books (through enhanced promotion on the label - which *does* sell books), then you create more revenue and potential profits for your business.

 

And it's SMART BUSINESS to do this, and if I ran CGC, I'd be constantly updating the label contents and notes to appeal to the greatest number of Movie Speculators I could, as good or bad, those drive submissions.

 

If word got out about a Eddie "Iron Man" March movie with him taking over for IM and his brother Marty March as the Guardsman, I would immediately catalogue and update the "First Appearance of Eddie March", "First Appearance of Marty March", "First Appearance of Eddie March in Iron Man costume", etc., etc. It's just Smart Business .

 

Is this really that difficult for people like you to grasp?

 

 

You're such an individual_without_enough_empathy...and you're wrong in this case. It must suck to be you...

 

 

 

JC does raise some valid points, albeit in an acerbic manner.

 

CGC is a business. It must market its products and services just like any business would have to. Let's not forget it is in the business to make money.

 

CGC does not exist to be your friend. While CGC may not have a personal relationship (friendship) with you, it still needs to foster goodwill with its customers. If you feel you have a personal relationship with CGC, then it is a byproduct of the business relationship.

[Lonzilla]

Last I checked, CGC still doesn't note on the label that Hulk Annual #5 is the 2nd appearance of Groot, doesn't mention Groot at all on the label actually but everyone here knows it

here's another one to chew on:

The Cat #1 - 1st appearance of The Cat

Giant Size Creatures #1 - 1st Tigra / Cat becomes Tigra

[Lonzilla]

 

What other ones are similar to this? I can't think of other marvel characters that had so many cameos (according to Cgc labels) ff66, 67, thor 163, 164, before 165 than moving on to MP1.

It's DC, but I get a headache trying to figure out what Darkseid's 1st appearance really is

[Heronext]

It was probably changed due to one of the countless nerd smackdowns on the same subject.

 

I'll buy you a clue, since you obviously need one.

 

CGC is a business, they are not your friends (as some of you seem to think), and they make money through submissions that are driven by seller and buyer demand. If you give dealers, sellers and speculators even more cause to buy and submit those books (through enhanced promotion on the label - which *does* sell books), then you create more revenue and potential profits for your business.

 

And it's SMART BUSINESS to do this, and if I ran CGC, I'd be constantly updating the label contents and notes to appeal to the greatest number of Movie Speculators I could, as good or bad, those drive submissions.

 

If word got out about a Eddie "Iron Man" March movie with him taking over for IM and his brother Marty March as the Guardsman, I would immediately catalogue and update the "First Appearance of Eddie March", "First Appearance of Marty March", "First Appearance of Eddie March in Iron Man costume", etc., etc. It's just Smart Business .

 

Is this really that difficult for people like you to grasp?

 

 

You're such an individual_without_enough_empathy...and you're wrong in this case. It must suck to be you...

 

 

 

JC does raise some valid points, albeit in an acerbic manner.

 

CGC is a business. It must market its products and services just like any business would have to. Let's not forget it is in the business to make money.

 

CGC does not exist to be your friend. While CGC may not have a personal relationship (friendship) with you, it still needs to foster goodwill with its customers. If you feel you have a personal relationship with CGC, then it is a byproduct of the business relationship.

 

CGC is actually my friend. We have regular barbecues and they give me a ride to work when my car breaks down.

 

I don’t care how successful or unsuccessful a company you are, you do not have the time or resources to do an absolute perfect job nailing down all possible angles on generating revenue. They are in it for profit, which is why they have to keep their operating expenses low. You prioritize.

 

As much as I think they should have a scholar with a PhD in comic book keys on their staff, why should they spend time researching first, second, cameo appearances for every character under the sun? Why should they prioritize this when they can’t get books back to submitters in reasonable time frames? Being a monopoly makes things even worse (for the customer).

 

Overstreet is also a business, and you’d think their price guides would sell better if the annotations were more complete and more accurate. But they are in fact incomplete and in many cases not accurate. One day CGC will have a full database of key notations, but it will be because of the efforts of collectors.

 

Just last month I requested that a book I submitted be labeled with the first appearance of a well-known character who first appeared over 30 years ago. I had never seen a label noting this character’s first appearance on that book, and it was not in CGC’s database. Now anyone who submits that book will get that label going forward.

 

Every month new comics come out with character debuts, some that will prove significant and some not. CGC is not going to keep on top of that. They have books to grade!

[AGGIEZ]

It was probably changed due to one of the countless nerd smackdowns on the same subject.

 

I'll buy you a clue, since you obviously need one.

 

CGC is a business, they are not your friends (as some of you seem to think), and they make money through submissions that are driven by seller and buyer demand. If you give dealers, sellers and speculators even more cause to buy and submit those books (through enhanced promotion on the label - which *does* sell books), then you create more revenue and potential profits for your business.

 

And it's SMART BUSINESS to do this, and if I ran CGC, I'd be constantly updating the label contents and notes to appeal to the greatest number of Movie Speculators I could, as good or bad, those drive submissions.

 

If word got out about a Eddie "Iron Man" March movie with him taking over for IM and his brother Marty March as the Guardsman, I would immediately catalogue and update the "First Appearance of Eddie March", "First Appearance of Marty March", "First Appearance of Eddie March in Iron Man costume", etc., etc. It's just Smart Business .

 

Is this really that difficult for people like you to grasp?

 

 

You're such an individual_without_enough_empathy...and you're wrong in this case. It must suck to be you...

 

 

 

JC does raise some valid points, albeit in an acerbic manner.

 

CGC is a business. It must market its products and services just like any business would have to. Let's not forget it is in the business to make money.

 

CGC does not exist to be your friend. While CGC may not have a personal relationship (friendship) with you, it still needs to foster goodwill with its customers. If you feel you have a personal relationship with CGC, then it is a byproduct of the business relationship.

 

CGC is actually my friend. We have regular barbecues and they give me a ride to work when my car breaks down.

 

I don’t care how successful or unsuccessful a company you are, you do not have the time or resources to do an absolute perfect job nailing down all possible angles on generating revenue. They are in it for profit, which is why they have to keep their operating expenses low. You prioritize.

 

As much as I think they should have a scholar with a PhD in comic book keys on their staff, why should they spend time researching first, second, cameo appearances for every character under the sun? Why should they prioritize this when they can’t get books back to submitters in reasonable time frames? Being a monopoly makes things even worse (for the customer).

 

Overstreet is also a business, and you’d think their price guides would sell better if the annotations were more complete and more accurate. But they are in fact incomplete and in many cases not accurate. One day CGC will have a full database of key notations, but it will be because of the efforts of collectors.

 

Just last month I requested that a book I submitted be labeled with the first appearance of a well-known character who first appeared over 30 years ago. I had never seen a label noting this character’s first appearance on that book, and it was not in CGC’s database. Now anyone who submits that book will get that label going forward.

 

Every month new comics come out with character debuts, some that will prove significant and some not. CGC is not going to keep on top of that. They have books to grade!

 

 

 

CGC is my kid's godfather.

 

 

[shadroch]

By that logic, Carol Danvers and Ms Marvel are the same person, so are Bill Foster and Black Goliath, Patsy Walker and Hellcat, and a zillion other old, forgotten characters that Marvel has adapted into a new superhero.

 

I'm just saying that if you're a fan of Ms Marvel, going back and collecting the previous appearances of Carol Danvers is not going to give you more Ms. Marvel, as it's a new character created years after Danvers appeared as a co-star in CM.

 

Same with Adam Warlock, and the character in MP 1 is a totally new one, and has almost nothing to do with the long-forgotten Him of the SA. Marvel just didn't want to pay royalties so they took Him and totally created a new character, concept and powers around it to save money.

 

But like others have said, if you're a fan of Warlock, then Marvel Premiere 1 is the book to own.

 

 

That might be true if

1) Him was some long forgotten figure from the SA, which he wasn't. Barely three years had passed since his last appearance and reading the Thor storyline, its pretty obvious he would be back.

2) more importantly Marvel was paying royalties which it wasn't.

 

Since neither of your statements are facts, your summary is simply typical jc baloney.

 

[Chip Cataldo]

Isn't this argument kinda like saying Congressman Obama and President Obama are two different characters?

 

Peace,

 

Chip

[joe_collector]

here's another one to chew on:

The Cat #1 - 1st appearance of The Cat

Giant Size Creatures #1 - 1st Tigra / Cat becomes Tigra

 

Good call, and this is exactly what happened with Adam Warlock and I can't believe I didn't remember it.

 

The Cat was a 4-issue fiasco that crashed the burned with the other "girl power" books of the early-70's and was subsequently forgotten. A few years later, Marvel needed a female were-woman for their horror line, so to keep the copyright and pay not royalties, The Cat was transformed into Tigra.

 

It is interesting that CGC notes "1st Tigra" and bizarrely (and quite mistakenly) refers to Marvel Premiere # 1 as "Origin of Warlock", which is insane, since Warlock did not exist before MP 1.

 

No matter how you feel on the Him - Warlock front, "origin of Warlock" is just plain wrong.

[joe_collector]

Isn't this argument kinda like saying Congressman Obama and President Obama are two different characters?

 

Sure, if Obama disappeared for 5 years, then emerged from a cocoon with new and enhanced powers, sported a red costume with a a lightning bolt on it, chose a duplicate of Earth to live on, and was given a Soul Gem by God that directly led to a few decades worth of cosmic Marvel storylines.

 

Then yes, it would be similar.

[Heronext]

No matter how you feel on the Him - Warlock front, "origin of Warlock" is just plain wrong.

 

I wouldn't argue that.

 

See, CGC are not experts - I've seen plenty of first appearances denoted as simply "Super Person appearance".

 

First appearance classification is a science in its infancy.

[Heronext]

MP1, in decreasing order of preference:

 

"Him becomes Warlock"

 

"1st appearance of Him as Warlock"

 

"1st appearance of Warlock (previously Him)"

[joe_collector]

why should they spend time researching first, second, cameo appearances for every character under the sun?

 

Did you just fall off the turnip truck yesterday?

 

If you had any knowledge of CGC, you would know they don't do any of this, and simply wait until the appearance or storyline becomes popular enough to warrant inclusion on the label. What the CGC label says has a great deal to do with how much it sells for, and many dealers send their books in for reholdering when a "first appearance" makes its way to the label, due to movie popularity, dealer requests or collector demand. And CGC regularly changes their labels due to the above.

 

Look at the situation here, FF 67 was initially identified as:

 

1st appearance of Him

 

Lately it's changed to:

 

First appearance of Him (Warlock)

 

And all of this is good business strategy, but I cannot believe you people think CGC is a pile of simpletons without an iota of business sense. They know how important the label information is when it comes to first appearances, and you're insulting their intelligence when you say they don't care.

[joe_collector]

"1st appearance of Warlock (previously Him)"

 

That's the most correct one, as prior to MP 1 Warlock didn't actually exist, but the Tigra precedent is the proper one:

 

1st Tigra / Cat becomes Tigra

 

1st Warlock / Him becomes Warlock

[djpinkpanther67]

Isn't this argument kinda like saying Congressman Obama and President Obama are two different characters?

 

Sure, if Obama disappeared for 5 years, then emerged from a cocoon with new and enhanced powers, sported a red costume with a a lightning bolt on it, chose a duplicate of Earth to live on, and was given a Soul Gem by God that directly led to a few decades worth of cosmic Marvel storylines.

 

Then yes, it would be similar.