When you receive a different CGC book than was pictured

[N/A]

But it tastes so sweet.

[Darkowl]

 

That is the essence of "the exception that makes the rule", yes.

 

Thanks for that, I meant to come back to that one. The actual expression is "The exception proves the rule", and doesn't mean what most folks think it does. "No parking on Sunday" implies that on days other than Sunday, parking IS allowed, thus is an exception that proves the rule. (An alternate viewpoint is that "prove" doesn't mean the usual "shows that it is so", but the lesser used "test", and that the expression means that exceptions will test how true the rule actually is.)

 

In this case, "Comics with flaws are not Mint" would be the essence of "the exception that proves the rule." I fear that your "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is more akin to "People are all male, unless they're female."

 

Looks like RockMyAmadeus just got...

 

Must be one of those positive aspects of being a "pedant".

 

Bitterness, exhibited as triumph over one you perceive has wronged you, is poison.

 

And you really believe you're not emotionally entangled in this discussion...?

 

[kav]

 

That is the essence of "the exception that makes the rule", yes.

 

Thanks for that, I meant to come back to that one. The actual expression is "The exception proves the rule", and doesn't mean what most folks think it does. "No parking on Sunday" implies that on days other than Sunday, parking IS allowed, thus is an exception that proves the rule. (An alternate viewpoint is that "prove" doesn't mean the usual "shows that it is so", but the lesser used "test", and that the expression means that exceptions will test how true the rule actually is.)

 

In this case, "Comics with flaws are not Mint" would be the essence of "the exception that proves the rule." I fear that your "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is more akin to "People are all male, unless they're female."

 

Looks like RockMyAmadeus just got...

 

Must be one of those positive aspects of being a "pedant".

 

Bitterness, exhibited as triumph over one you perceive has wronged you, is poison.

 

And you really believe you're not emotionally entangled in this discussion...?

 

Another blockbuster!! Yippee!

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That is the essence of "the exception that makes the rule", yes.

 

Thanks for that, I meant to come back to that one. The actual expression is "The exception proves the rule", and doesn't mean what most folks think it does. "No parking on Sunday" implies that on days other than Sunday, parking IS allowed, thus is an exception that proves the rule. (An alternate viewpoint is that "prove" doesn't mean the usual "shows that it is so", but the lesser used "test", and that the expression means that exceptions will test how true the rule actually is.)

 

In this case, "Comics with flaws are not Mint" would be the essence of "the exception that proves the rule." I fear that your "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is more akin to "People are all male, unless they're female."

 

Looks like RockMyAmadeus just got...

 

Must be one of those positive aspects of being a "pedant".

 

Bitterness, exhibited as triumph over one you perceive has wronged you, is poison.

 

And you really believe you're not emotionally entangled in this discussion...?

 

 

[MatterEaterLad]

Wow...still going...and going...

 

[Lazyboy]

Oh, and I'm sure you are aware there are people - perhaps including you - who go to the comic shop on "new comics day", and look carefully through those brand new stacks of Superior Spider-Man in order to pick out the very best of all those identical books.

 

...which is rendered moot in a picture.

 

This is the key point from people on this side of the argument.

 

I'm still wondering how cracks on top of the case would be visible in a scan (assuming they didn't happen during shipping).

[ttfitz]

 

That is the essence of "the exception that makes the rule", yes.

 

Thanks for that, I meant to come back to that one. The actual expression is "The exception proves the rule", and doesn't mean what most folks think it does. "No parking on Sunday" implies that on days other than Sunday, parking IS allowed, thus is an exception that proves the rule. (An alternate viewpoint is that "prove" doesn't mean the usual "shows that it is so", but the lesser used "test", and that the expression means that exceptions will test how true the rule actually is.)

 

In this case, "Comics with flaws are not Mint" would be the essence of "the exception that proves the rule." I fear that your "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is more akin to "People are all male, unless they're female."

 

Looks like RockMyAmadeus just got...

 

 

Must be one of those positive aspects of being a "pedant".

 

Hey, none of that, this was just a friendly discussion. At least from my end - like I said, I've got no dog in this one.

[youmechooz]

I think what this thread illustrates is that even honest sellers and buyers don't always agree on what constitutes a flaw that needs to be disclosed.

 

This thread doesn't illustrate that at all.

 

Yes it does.

 

All the flaws you brought up, everyone agreed it was important to disclose.

 

Eventually everyone agreed. But not at first. Which is the point.

 

At first, youmechoose didn't even seem to feel that a cracked case violated his rule that all modern 9.8s are the same:

 

I stand by what I said. The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

 

Only after I asked him if he would have sold the book with those cracks in it without disclosure did he come around on that one point. But then he still insisted there was nothing else wrong with the book:

 

If there was no damage, you couldn't tell the difference between that slab or the picture you saw in the listing except for the Cgc serial number.

 

So then I pointed out the other flaws in the book, which are plainly obvious to me from the photos, but apparently not to him, and he changed his tune again:

 

If the paper is showing and there is fluff inside the case, completely different story.

 

The point is, he didn't see those flaws, or didn't seem to think they were important until AFTER they were pointed out to him, so he would not have disclosed those flaws if he were the seller of this book, without me there to help him see the flaws. How on earth could he disclose flaws he didn't know were there, or didn't think constituted flaws? Remember, in his opinion, it was impossible to tell the difference between that book and any other 9.8. It's right there in bold. So, clearly, he did NOT agree on what needed to be disclosed about that book.

 

So, yes, this thread most certainly does illustrate that not everyone sees the same flaws, or agrees on what should be disclosed. And that's why photos matter.

Jesus Christ. If there was no damage, I consider the fluff, cracked case and other things that cause a book to be reslabbed damage, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Minus the flaws, you can't tell the difference. I knew the op slab had flaws, he needs to send it back or reslab it. I did not need you or anyone else to point out to me the case is different. Never changed my tune. A few posts back I posted several 9.8's. Tell me, if there a difference between the books, if there is, you are lying.

[ttfitz]

 

That is the essence of "the exception that makes the rule", yes.

 

Thanks for that, I meant to come back to that one. The actual expression is "The exception proves the rule", and doesn't mean what most folks think it does. "No parking on Sunday" implies that on days other than Sunday, parking IS allowed, thus is an exception that proves the rule. (An alternate viewpoint is that "prove" doesn't mean the usual "shows that it is so", but the lesser used "test", and that the expression means that exceptions will test how true the rule actually is.)

 

In this case, "Comics with flaws are not Mint" would be the essence of "the exception that proves the rule." I fear that your "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is more akin to "People are all male, unless they're female."

 

As it is used in the vernacular, "the exception that makes the rule" refers to the exceptions that demonstrate a general principle which holds the majority of, but not all, the time. If it doesn't mean what most folks think it does, then the issue may not be with the folks, but rather the saying, provided the meaning isn't obfuscated by the change from the original expression. While I agree with the limited nature of the original expression, it has taken on an expanded meaning in everyday use, and it is that meaning to which I refer.

 

Since it is not technically incorrect to say "the exception that makes the rule", and it doesn't contradict the original meaning (as opposed to, say, "I could care less"), I'll stick to that phraseology. The meaning is clear as it stands.

 

In a scan, all modern 9.8 comic books are identical...unless the package (slab and/or the comic itself) has an atypical flaw. That is by design, on the parts of the manufacturers of the comics, the slabs, and those who put them together.

 

The offered comparison, "people are all male, unless they're female" fails, because there isn't only one possible natural state of gender existence among people, and never has been (which is the heart of this classic logical fallacy.)

 

However, a slab of a modern 9.8 begins its existence as functionally (in this case, in a picture) and ideally identical to its brethren. There is only one designed state of existence for a modern 9.8 slab, and anything that diverges from that is, by definition, flawed.

 

(Some may bring up Sig Series, Restored, and Qualified. Those are, of course, completely different beasts. Some may bring up "well, what if one of the books was signed on the first page, and it's mentioned on the label?" I will respond with "and that book, by definition, is not identical, by virtue of its notation.")

 

The problem I have with the phrase as it is "used in the vernacular", is that the usage is pretty idiotic - people throw that out as an excuse for their sloppy use of language, that the fact that the absolute they stated isn't true because there are things that don't follow the rule is somehow proof that the rule IS correct.

 

More to the point, if you don't see that "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is a meaningless statement, there's really no need to continue. Although I suspect you do realize this, you just like to argue.

 

Which is fine with me, I'm always like that, too, except for now.

[ttfitz]

Minus the flaws, you can't tell the difference.

 

 

[Boba]

I once sold a book I had 2 graded copies of a book I offered for sale and accidentally swapped the one I sold with the other one I kept. They were identical as far as grade and appearance, but it kinda ticked the buyer off as he thought I was trying to pull a fast one. I was wrong, but I was willing to do whoever to make it right, but the buyer finally decided to believe me and we went on our way.

[cousin itt]

Jesus Christ. If there was no damage, I consider the fluff, cracked case and other things that cause a book to be reslabbed damage,

 

So, when you said:

 

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

 

you meant to include the slipped microchamber paper and the white fluff as included when you said "the plastic case"? You see how some might think you were only referring to the plastic case, since what you said is "plastic case"?

 

A few posts back I posted several 9.8's. Tell me, if there a difference between the books, if there is, you are lying.

 

Again, we've already been through this, but I never claimed that ALL 9.8s are different. I only claim that not all 9.8s are the same. SOME are the same. Not all.

[ttfitz]

 

Again, we've already been through this, but I never claimed that ALL 9.8s are different. I only claim that not all 9.8s are the same. SOME are the same. Not all.

 

See, there ya go - agreement is reached! You also think they are the same unless they aren't.

 

Thread over.

 

[kav]

Move along. Nothing to see here. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

[youmechooz]

Jesus Christ. If there was no damage, I consider the fluff, cracked case and other things that cause a book to be reslabbed damage,

 

So, when you said:

 

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

 

you meant to include the slipped microchamber paper and the white fluff as included when you said "the plastic case"? You see how some might think you were only referring to the plastic case, since what you said is "plastic case"?

 

A few posts back I posted several 9.8's. Tell me, if there a difference between the books, if there is, you are lying.

 

Again, we've already been through this, but I never claimed that ALL 9.8s are different. I only claim that not all 9.8s are the same. SOME are the same. Not all.

When I said

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

I said the book, the book, the comic book, looks the same, nothing about the fluff or moved microchamber paper. The book looks the same. What you are saying is If I had two slabs, both the same issue and grade, 9.8, and I threw one of the slabs on the ground cracking the case, I would then say "these are the same". You are assuming I think micro paper showing, cases cracked, debris inside the case, etc is normal, which is not the case. My original point was, if I had 2 9.8 slabs of superior spiderman 1 that didn't have anything wrong with my needing to reslab, then there is not point for 2 individual scans or pictures because they would look the same besides the cert numbers. This only counts for moderns.

[kav]

Jesus Christ. If there was no damage, I consider the fluff, cracked case and other things that cause a book to be reslabbed damage,

 

So, when you said:

 

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

 

you meant to include the slipped microchamber paper and the white fluff as included when you said "the plastic case"? You see how some might think you were only referring to the plastic case, since what you said is "plastic case"?

 

A few posts back I posted several 9.8's. Tell me, if there a difference between the books, if there is, you are lying.

 

Again, we've already been through this, but I never claimed that ALL 9.8s are different. I only claim that not all 9.8s are the same. SOME are the same. Not all.

When I said

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

I said the book, the book, the comic book, looks the same, nothing about the fluff or moved microchamber paper. The book looks the same. What you are saying is If I had two slabs, both the same issue and grade, 9.8, and I threw one of the slabs on the ground cracking the case, I would then say "these are the same". You are assuming I think micro paper showing, cases cracked, debris inside the case, etc is normal, which is not the case. My original point was, if I had 2 9.8 slabs of superior spiderman 1 that didn't have anything wrong with my needing to reslab, then there is not point for 2 individual scans or pictures because they would look the same besides the cert numbers. This only counts for moderns.

I get it. If two identical 9.8's were in two different houses, one a nice house the other a beat up old shack, you wouldn't say the two books were 'different' because where they were located were different....

[youmechooz]

Jesus Christ. If there was no damage, I consider the fluff, cracked case and other things that cause a book to be reslabbed damage,

 

So, when you said:

 

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

 

you meant to include the slipped microchamber paper and the white fluff as included when you said "the plastic case"? You see how some might think you were only referring to the plastic case, since what you said is "plastic case"?

 

A few posts back I posted several 9.8's. Tell me, if there a difference between the books, if there is, you are lying.

 

Again, we've already been through this, but I never claimed that ALL 9.8s are different. I only claim that not all 9.8s are the same. SOME are the same. Not all.

When I said

The plastic case might not look the same, in this case cracked, but that book probably does.

I said the book, the book, the comic book, looks the same, nothing about the fluff or moved microchamber paper. The book looks the same. What you are saying is If I had two slabs, both the same issue and grade, 9.8, and I threw one of the slabs on the ground cracking the case, I would then say "these are the same". You are assuming I think micro paper showing, cases cracked, debris inside the case, etc is normal, which is not the case. My original point was, if I had 2 9.8 slabs of superior spiderman 1 that didn't have anything wrong with my needing to reslab, then there is not point for 2 individual scans or pictures because they would look the same besides the cert numbers. This only counts for moderns.

I get it. If two identical 9.8's were in two different houses, one a nice house the other a beat up old shack, you wouldn't say the two books were 'different' because where they were located were different....

Nope. He assumed I consider a cracked case normal. Again.

They look the same to me, but this one is not the same slab, SLAB,

There was a drop of spilled coke on the slab and I had to clean it before sending it out, which I did. But other than that, no difference between any of these slabs or books. And again, it repeat, no difference between these I sold, or the 9.8's beachbum sold, or the 9.8's Ryan sold. We could have dropped ship between all 3 of us, and the only difference you would see is the number.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That is the essence of "the exception that makes the rule", yes.

 

Thanks for that, I meant to come back to that one. The actual expression is "The exception proves the rule", and doesn't mean what most folks think it does. "No parking on Sunday" implies that on days other than Sunday, parking IS allowed, thus is an exception that proves the rule. (An alternate viewpoint is that "prove" doesn't mean the usual "shows that it is so", but the lesser used "test", and that the expression means that exceptions will test how true the rule actually is.)

 

In this case, "Comics with flaws are not Mint" would be the essence of "the exception that proves the rule." I fear that your "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is more akin to "People are all male, unless they're female."

 

As it is used in the vernacular, "the exception that makes the rule" refers to the exceptions that demonstrate a general principle which holds the majority of, but not all, the time. If it doesn't mean what most folks think it does, then the issue may not be with the folks, but rather the saying, provided the meaning isn't obfuscated by the change from the original expression. While I agree with the limited nature of the original expression, it has taken on an expanded meaning in everyday use, and it is that meaning to which I refer.

 

Since it is not technically incorrect to say "the exception that makes the rule", and it doesn't contradict the original meaning (as opposed to, say, "I could care less"), I'll stick to that phraseology. The meaning is clear as it stands.

 

In a scan, all modern 9.8 comic books are identical...unless the package (slab and/or the comic itself) has an atypical flaw. That is by design, on the parts of the manufacturers of the comics, the slabs, and those who put them together.

 

The offered comparison, "people are all male, unless they're female" fails, because there isn't only one possible natural state of gender existence among people, and never has been (which is the heart of this classic logical fallacy.)

 

However, a slab of a modern 9.8 begins its existence as functionally (in this case, in a picture) and ideally identical to its brethren. There is only one designed state of existence for a modern 9.8 slab, and anything that diverges from that is, by definition, flawed.

 

(Some may bring up Sig Series, Restored, and Qualified. Those are, of course, completely different beasts. Some may bring up "well, what if one of the books was signed on the first page, and it's mentioned on the label?" I will respond with "and that book, by definition, is not identical, by virtue of its notation.")

 

The problem I have with the phrase as it is "used in the vernacular", is that the usage is pretty idiotic - people throw that out as an excuse for their sloppy use of language, that the fact that the absolute they stated isn't true because there are things that don't follow the rule is somehow proof that the rule IS correct.

 

More to the point, if you don't see that "They are all alike, unless they aren't" is a meaningless statement, there's really no need to continue. Although I suspect you do realize this, you just like to argue.

 

Which is fine with me, I'm always like that, too, except for now.

 

I disagree completely, and have made the points necessary to support my position. I like to discuss. I do not like to argue. I also won't suggest that anything you've said is "idiotic" or otherwise insult you and what you've said, because that's what people who just like to argue do. When anyone becomes insulting in a discussion, they've lost control of their emotions (however briefly), and allowed their personal feelings to overcome their ability to make a rational argument and stand by it.

 

If you happen to think the earth is a flat disc around which revolves the sun, moon, and stars, others will insult you and call you stupid. I will not (well...mostly. I am human. But I will make the effort.) Suffice it to say, I'm not going to call anyone's arguments"idiotic" or any other such insult, no matter what my personal opinion about them is, nor how obtuse I think they are being.

 

I do doff my hat to you for a vigorous debate.

 

I already pointed out, at great length, why they are "all alike", except the ones that have flaws, which is contrary to design and intention. If you wish to oversimplify the statement to "they are all alike, unless they aren't", you are free to do so....but *you* are then the one oversimplifying the point to its meaninglessness.

 

The fact is still the fact: in a picture, modern 9.8 slabs of the same book are functionally identical, unless there's a flaw, which is then disclosed.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

(Lunch was fantastic, by the way. )

[kav]

(Lunch was fantastic, by the way. )