Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[ChrisInBaltimore]

How the heck was it a 7.0 in the purple label case?

A book doesn't get a grade bump just because it's a PLOD correct?

 

The fact that a micro-trim was missed isn't that upsetting to me, since it's happened before.

But the difference between a 6.0 and 7.0 on a JIM 83 is huge.

 

-Yes, I'm the only person in the thread more concerned about that than the trim which probably makes me a weirdo.

 

No one who has been paying attention expects CGC ( or practically anyone else) to guarantee they will grade a book the same way twice. Grading is too subjective, and prone to shifting assessments of what the sum of the flaws should mean. In part the faith in CGC's grading is that it is impartial, not that it is absolute. It would be nice if CGC appeared to be a bit more consistent some times, but that's what you are going to get with multiple graders, even if they are using the same criteria. To repeat, there are no absolute grades, the best we can do is find a fairly tight ( generally 2-3 grades) range that most knowledgeable people can agree on. Does CGC sometimes fall outside of a general consensus of what that might be? Yes, and a 7.0 for this particular book may be such a case, but it is hardly unique, and even the most trusted and consistent of graders may at times find their opinion at odds with the bulk of the collecting community.

 

And that is why we buy the book and not the label.

 

The big issue is the difference that the market creates between a 6.0 and a 7.0. My LCS and I had a discussion recently about how people seem to see 7.0+ as more collectible while the price gab between a 5.0 and 6.0 isn't all that extreme.

 

Of course we had no evidence to support it. It was just a discussion but there does seem some truth in it.

[comeaux]

CGC Forum

[mschmidt]

Do other 3rd party grading companies do this?

 

I need to say this right now. I am PRO CGC, I am not advocating any other grading companies.

 

The answer to your question is yes, the newest upstart does have re-grading as part of its policies. I also believe, they have public grading standards.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Vault grading? The company that charges $55 for graders' notes, doesn't disclose who's actually grading the books, and has a re-grading service that's $8 more expensive than just grading?

 

Our proprietary grading process is based on industry standards and is performed to produce accurate and consistently fair grades.

Seems even less transparent than CGC :shrug:

[THE_BEYONDER]

Good enough for me! I am getting my next submission ready as we speak!

 

 

 

[kav]

[divad]

How the heck was it a 7.0 in the purple label case?

A book doesn't get a grade bump just because it's a PLOD correct?

 

The fact that a micro-trim was missed isn't that upsetting to me, since it's happened before.

But the difference between a 6.0 and 7.0 on a JIM 83 is huge.

 

-Yes, I'm the only person in the thread more concerned about that than the trim which probably makes me a weirdo.

 

No one who has been paying attention expects CGC ( or practically anyone else) to guarantee they will grade a book the same way twice. Grading is too subjective, and prone to shifting assessments of what the sum of the flaws should mean. In part the faith in CGC's grading is that it is impartial, not that it is absolute. It would be nice if CGC appeared to be a bit more consistent some times, but that's what you are going to get with multiple graders, even if they are using the same criteria. To repeat, there are no absolute grades, the best we can do is find a fairly tight ( generally 2-3 grades) range that most knowledgeable people can agree on. Does CGC sometimes fall outside of a general consensus of what that might be? Yes, and a 7.0 for this particular book may be such a case, but it is hardly unique, and even the most trusted and consistent of graders may at times find their opinion at odds with the bulk of the collecting community.

 

And that is why we buy the book and not the label.

 

The big issue is the difference that the market creates between a 6.0 and a 7.0. My LCS and I had a discussion recently about how people seem to see 7.0+ as more collectible while the price gab between a 5.0 and 6.0 isn't all that extreme.

 

Of course we had no evidence to support it. It was just a discussion but there does seem some truth in it.

 

A 7.0 is in the "VF range", while a 5.0 and a 6.0 are in the "FN range". I am always amazed at what a good deal the minus (-) grades can be, because of the "stigma" of the minus. You can often buy a 9.2 cheaper than a 9.0 (on any given day).

[stanley1883]

So whats bothering me is that is would seems that the bare minimum was done by CGC and people are satisfied. This is what I meant by we the consumers creating the problem. CGC is off the hook and back to business as usual, let's send them our money.

 

They acknowledged the mistake, well I would hope so. Them taking the book off the market really does nothing, it's a weak attempt at best. Then we are given "we're human, we make mistakes, blah blah."

 

How about answering how it happened? "We make mistakes" is not an acceptable answer to me. Especially when "Everyone" looked at the book. How long do graders look at a book? What exactly is done" What is QC and do they really do anything?

 

I want transparency, why not share what the "grading standards" are? If you really have "bar none the best graders" as claimed, then others knowing your "standards" will be irrelevant as they won't be able to match your staff.

 

I don't know, CGC took a step in the right direction but that;s all it is to me, a step.

Edited April 1, 2014 by stanley1883

[Rip]

 

 

[LordRahl]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

[shadroch]

Do other 3rd party grading companies do this?

 

I need to say this right now. I am PRO CGC, I am not advocating any other grading companies.

 

The answer to your question is yes, the newest upstart does have re-grading as part of its policies. I also believe, they have public grading standards.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Vault grading? The company that charges $55 for graders' notes, doesn't disclose who's actually grading the books, and has a re-grading service that's $8 more expensive than just grading?

 

Our proprietary grading process is based on industry standards and is performed to produce accurate and consistently fair grades.

Seems even less transparent than CGC :shrug:

 

With the CGC crew in Seattle this weekend, who was it that worked on the JIM 83?

[kav]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

[divad]

"We make mistakes" is not an acceptable answer to me.

 

Nor is not paying your NCAA Tourney entry fee after signing up . . .

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Do other 3rd party grading companies do this?

 

I need to say this right now. I am PRO CGC, I am not advocating any other grading companies.

 

The answer to your question is yes, the newest upstart does have re-grading as part of its policies. I also believe, they have public grading standards.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Vault grading? The company that charges $55 for graders' notes, doesn't disclose who's actually grading the books, and has a re-grading service that's $8 more expensive than just grading?

 

Our proprietary grading process is based on industry standards and is performed to produce accurate and consistently fair grades.

Seems even less transparent than CGC :shrug:

 

With the CGC crew in Seattle this weekend, who was it that worked on the JIM 83?

 

Kav and his expert trimming inspection

[kav]

Do other 3rd party grading companies do this?

 

I need to say this right now. I am PRO CGC, I am not advocating any other grading companies.

 

The answer to your question is yes, the newest upstart does have re-grading as part of its policies. I also believe, they have public grading standards.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Vault grading? The company that charges $55 for graders' notes, doesn't disclose who's actually grading the books, and has a re-grading service that's $8 more expensive than just grading?

 

Our proprietary grading process is based on industry standards and is performed to produce accurate and consistently fair grades.

Seems even less transparent than CGC :shrug:

 

With the CGC crew in Seattle this weekend, who was it that worked on the JIM 83?

 

Kav and his expert trimming inspection

I think it's worth looking into is all. The FBI seems to think it's a pretty good technique.

[divad]

With the CGC crew in Seattle this weekend, who was it that worked on the JIM 83?

 

Jason Ewert?

[LordRahl]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

[comeaux]

 

 

Awesome Jason !

[kav]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

[MagnetoWasRight]

So whats bothering me is that is would seems that the bare minimum was done by CGC and people are satisfied. This is what I meant by we the consumers creating the problem. CGC is off the hook and back to business as usual, let's send them our money.

 

They acknowledged the mistake, well I would hope so. Them taking the book off the market really does nothing, it's a weak attempt at best. Then we are given "we're human, we make mistakes, blah blah."

 

How about answering how it happened? "We make mistakes" is not an acceptable answer to me. Especially when "Everyone" looked at the book. How long do graders look at a book? What exactly is done" What is QC and do they really do anything?

 

I want transparency, why not share what the "grading standards" are? If you really have "bar none the best graders" as claimed, then others knowing your "standards" will be irrelevant as they won't be able to match your staff.

 

I don't know, CGC took a step in the right direction but that;s all it is to me, a step.

 

I agree, couldn't have said it any better...transparency is key.

[LordRahl]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

 

You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI.

 

Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?