Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[kav]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

 

You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI.

 

Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?

I have not done this but I have spent years using a microscope and know the power in determining things. Tiny tool marks invisible to the naked eye can match a tool to something it was used on. The trimmed edge would age at the same rate but the surrounding paper would have had a head start and this could possibly be determined-that a piece of paper was cut years after the rest of the paper had been produced and bound.

[mschmidt]

Do other 3rd party grading companies do this?

 

I need to say this right now. I am PRO CGC, I am not advocating any other grading companies.

 

The answer to your question is yes, the newest upstart does have re-grading as part of its policies. I also believe, they have public grading standards.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Vault grading? The company that charges $55 for graders' notes, doesn't disclose who's actually grading the books, and has a re-grading service that's $8 more expensive than just grading?

 

Our proprietary grading process is based on industry standards and is performed to produce accurate and consistently fair grades.

Seems even less transparent than CGC :shrug:

 

With the CGC crew in Seattle this weekend, who was it that worked on the JIM 83?

 

Shawn & Paul were the only CGC graders in Seattle this weekend.

[revat]

As for why they'd want to buy the book back?

 

1. THey want to study it, see if they can learn anything about trimming detection. This actually makes sense to me.

 

2. More likely, THEY DON'T WANT IT RESUBBED AGAIN. they want the saga of this book to end, for it to be debated ad nauseum til the end of time. This doesn't solve whatever resto check problem they have, but certainly people should be able to understand why they'd like to do this.

 

Why can't they just own up to what went wrong?

 

They have a system of checking, specific techniques, that while imperfect, might be proprietary. To disclose too much about those techniques might give a bit too much information to potential competitors and potential trimmers looking to slip something past the resto check. They've admitted mistakes were made, they've offered to financially make people whole, they will no doubt train and retrain their people on the resto check section.

 

Even if you suspect something more nefarious occurred, you can't possibly expect them to admit it.

 

I don't know what else they can do. I think they understand some business will be lost, but they can't do anything about that now except try to be better moving forward. Its a business, and their reputation took a hit. The option they're choosing is to admit it (without divulging trade secrets), make people whole financially, learn from the book in question by taking possession of it, and move forward and try to be better.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Revat

[divad]

How about this? I take the book, promise never to resell it, and keep it in my motley collection until the end of time.

[shadroch]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

 

You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI.

 

Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?

 

Why not take thirty seconds and check out his last 300 posts in this thread and decide for yourself.

[kav]

As for why they'd want to buy the book back?

 

1. THey want to study it, see if they can learn anything about trimming detection. This actually makes sense to me.

 

2. More likely, THEY DON'T WANT IT RESUBBED AGAIN. they want the saga of this book to end, for it to be debated ad nauseum til the end of time. This doesn't solve whatever resto check problem they have, but certainly people should be able to understand why they'd like to do this.

 

Why can't they just own up to what went wrong?

 

They have a system of checking, specific techniques, that while imperfect, might be proprietary. To disclose too much about those techniques might give a bit too much information to potential competitors and potential trimmers looking to slip something past the resto check. They've admitted mistakes were made, they've offered to financially make people whole, they will no doubt train and retrain their people on the resto check section.

 

Even if you suspect something more nefarious occurred, you can't possibly expect them to admit it.

 

I don't know what else they can do. I think they understand some business will be lost, but they can't do anything about that now except try to be better moving forward. Its a business, and their reputation took a hit. The option they're choosing is to admit it (without divulging trade secrets), make people whole financially, learn from the book in question by taking possession of it, and move forward and try to be better.

The key question here is what if the book really is not trimmed? If it is trimmed then human error ok no big deal. But if it is not trimmed then that opens up the 'can't admit they're wrong' attitude if someone approaches them with a discrepancy. They have yet to re examine the book so how they can state at this juncture that it is definitely trimmed is baffling.

[kav]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

 

You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI.

 

Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?

 

Why not take thirty seconds and check out his last 300 posts in this thread and decide for yourself.

This from a guy who goes around flattening tires....

[LordRahl]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

 

You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI.

 

Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?

I have not done this but I have spent years using a microscope and know the power in determining things. Tiny tool marks invisible to the naked eye can match a tool to something it was used on. The trimmed edge would age at the same rate but the surrounding paper would have had a head start and this could possibly be determined-that a piece of paper was cut years after the rest of the paper had been produced and bound.

 

Soooo, conjecture on your part. Perhaps somewhat educated conjecture but conjecture all the same.

[kav]

However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming.

Has anyone ever claimed they can detect trimming with 100% accuracy?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure if You gave me a stereomicroscope and some trimmed and untrimmed books and a few hours I would have a 100% error-free trimming detection rate.....

 

 

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless.

 

I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this

 

Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981.

 

You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI.

 

Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?

I have not done this but I have spent years using a microscope and know the power in determining things. Tiny tool marks invisible to the naked eye can match a tool to something it was used on. The trimmed edge would age at the same rate but the surrounding paper would have had a head start and this could possibly be determined-that a piece of paper was cut years after the rest of the paper had been produced and bound.

 

Soooo, conjecture on your part. Perhaps somewhat educated conjecture but conjecture all the same.

Yes conjecture. I was kidding a bit when I said I would have a 100% detection rate but all I am saying is, no one's even done it, it's fairly simple, and we're talking about thousands of dollars and a professional reputation.

[ChrisInBaltimore]

.Why can't they just own up to what went wrong?

 

While it'd be great if they owned up and there was a great reason, maybe they just don't know what went wrong…

[kav]

And no I don't watch CSI-way too unrealistic. CSI techs that go around investigating crimes and interviewing people-even making arrests! DNA results that come back in hours!!! Good lord....

[CBT]

new post...

 

Before I respond, again I need to re-iterate:

In the past I claimed that you are a mod. For the record, I still think you are one, or extremely tightly associated with many who are. I know you are in the inner circle...

 

I'm assuming you're referring to Vault grading? The company that charges $55 for graders' notes, doesn't disclose who's actually grading the books, and has a re-grading service that's $8 more expensive than just grading?

 

Our proprietary grading process is based on industry standards and is performed to produce accurate and consistently fair grades.

Seems even less transparent than CGC :shrug:

 

I really dont want to respond to this, because I said a lot more, which you just cut out of your quote.

 

Here is my post:

I need to say this right now. I am PRO CGC, I am not advocating any other grading companies.

 

....

 

My point is not that the existing competition doing this is going to impact CGC, but the fact that they are doing it points to the desire. When EVERY one of your customers would prefer you would do something that would benefit them, and you dont, because of short term costs.

 

That's abusing your monopoly, and capitalism hasnt changed and predates CGC. It's a few years off, but real competition will come.

 

I am not advocating or defending any other company's practice. But that being said, for the sake of completeness I will say:

1.) Nothing is less transparent then CGC,

2.) the guys you referenced state they use overstreet.

3.) I wouldnt send a book to The Vault, and neither should anyone else

 

Edited April 2, 2014 by CBT

[Ares]

Spider-dan

I'll ask for the forth time. Did CGC Miss the --

 

Plitch

You want answers?

 

Spider-dan

I think I'm entitled to them.

 

Plitch

You want answers?!

 

Spider-dan

I want the truth.

 

Plitch

You can't handle the truth!

(continuing)

Son, we live in a world that has comics. And those comics have to be graded by men with skills. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Ares? I have a greater responsibility than You can possibly fathom. You weep for Jim 83 and you curse our skills. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That making rare errors, while tragic, probably saved the book from PGX.

 

And a mistake, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved a collection.

(beat)

You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at conventions and forum, you want us there at CGC. You need us there.

(boasting)

We use words like Trim, color Touch, Restoration... we use these words as the backbone to a life spent grading books. You use 'em as a punchline.

(beat)

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading I provide, then questions the manner in which we provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a UV light & grade a book. Either way, don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.

 

Spider-dan

Did CGC make a mistake on the trim?

 

Plitch

(beat)

We did the job we were hired to do.

 

Spider-dan

Did CGC make a mistake on the trim?

 

Plitch

You're right we did.

 

Silence. From everyone. Ares, comicWiz, the Peanut Gallery

they're all frozen. CGCmod0 and AlexH are likewise. Spider-Dan seems strangely, Quietly relieved. Ares simply takes control of the room now.

 

Ares

Please the court, I suggest the Kangaroo Court be dismissed so that we can move to an immediate Article 39a Session. CGC has rights

[ttfitz]

Man, this thread reads a lot faster with Kav on ignore (thumbs u

If you tell someone you're ignoring them that's not ignoring them.

 

+1 (thumbs u

[CBT]

[ttfitz]

 

And I don't think your stupidity is an act...

I trust your judgment. You would certainly be the local stupidity expert.

 

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, and not the movie with Joseph Cotton.

It's always the same fools on the anti-Kav bandwagon. What a circle jerk.

In my book whoever has to hurl insults first has lost the argument.

 

 

A fool, hardly. But I'll paypal you $50.00 to stop your worthless, endless babbling for 24 hours.

 

Far be it for me to defend kav, but I find his postings to be the embodiment of Sturgeon's law.

[rjpb]

How the heck was it a 7.0 in the purple label case?

A book doesn't get a grade bump just because it's a PLOD correct?

 

The fact that a micro-trim was missed isn't that upsetting to me, since it's happened before.

But the difference between a 6.0 and 7.0 on a JIM 83 is huge.

 

-Yes, I'm the only person in the thread more concerned about that than the trim which probably makes me a weirdo.

 

No one who has been paying attention expects CGC ( or practically anyone else) to guarantee they will grade a book the same way twice. Grading is too subjective, and prone to shifting assessments of what the sum of the flaws should mean. In part the faith in CGC's grading is that it is impartial, not that it is absolute. It would be nice if CGC appeared to be a bit more consistent some times, but that's what you are going to get with multiple graders, even if they are using the same criteria. To repeat, there are no absolute grades, the best we can do is find a fairly tight ( generally 2-3 grades) range that most knowledgeable people can agree on. Does CGC sometimes fall outside of a general consensus of what that might be? Yes, and a 7.0 for this particular book may be such a case, but it is hardly unique, and even the most trusted and consistent of graders may at times find their opinion at odds with the bulk of the collecting community.

 

And that is why we buy the book and not the label.

 

The big issue is the difference that the market creates between a 6.0 and a 7.0. My LCS and I had a discussion recently about how people seem to see 7.0+ as more collectible while the price gab between a 5.0 and 6.0 isn't all that extreme.

 

Of course we had no evidence to support it. It was just a discussion but there does seem some truth in it.

 

There is also the power of suggestion. Most if not all of us are at times on the fence about a grade. If we are told in advance what a credible party has assigned the book, we will frequently agree if it is in the range we were considering. Even if we have a firm idea, the opinion of someone we respect can sway us in their direction. Even if you disagree with CGC's assessment and "buy the book", not the grade, you may find yourself closer to CGC's opinion on grade than if you bought the book raw and ungraded. If a book one may have thought of as 6.0 at best gets a 7.0 from CGC, one will probably still insist it's no 7.0, but might adjust their perception to 6.5 at best. So we may be paying for the label even when we think were not, especially if there is the thought that down the line someone else may buy more the label than the book from you.

[shadroch]

And I don't think your stupidity is an act...

I trust your judgment. You would certainly be the local stupidity expert.

 

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, and not the movie with Joseph Cotton.

It's always the same fools on the anti-Kav bandwagon. What a circle jerk.

In my book whoever has to hurl insults first has lost the argument.

 

 

A fool, hardly. But I'll paypal you $50.00 to stop your worthless, endless babbling for 24 hours.

 

Far be it for me to defend kav, but I find his postings to be the embodiment of Sturgeon's law.

 

Nothing is ever absolutely so?

[gregreece]

Spider-dan

I'll ask for the forth time. Did CGC Miss the --

 

Plitch

You want answers?

 

Spider-dan

I think I'm entitled to them.

 

Plitch

You want answers?!

 

Spider-dan

I want the truth.

 

Plitch

You can't handle the truth!

(continuing)

Son, we live in a world that has comics. And those comics have to be graded by men with skills. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Ares? I have a greater responsibility than You can possibly fathom. You weep for Jim 83 and you curse our skills. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That making rare errors, while tragic, probably saved the book from PGX.

 

And a mistake, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saved a collection.

(beat)

You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at conventions and forum, you want us there at CGC. You need us there.

(boasting)

We use words like Trim, color Touch, Restoration... we use these words as the backbone to a life spent grading books. You use 'em as a punchline.

(beat)

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading I provide, then questions the manner in which we provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a UV light & grade a book. Either way, don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to.

 

Spider-dan

Did CGC make a mistake on the trim?

 

Plitch

(beat)

We did the job we were hired to do.

 

Spider-dan

Did CGC make a mistake on the trim?

 

Plitch

You're right we did.

 

Silence. From everyone. Ares, comicWiz, the Peanut Gallery

they're all frozen. CGCmod0 and AlexH are likewise. Spider-Dan seems strangely, Quietly relieved. Ares simply takes control of the room now.

 

Ares

Please the court, I suggest the Kangaroo Court be dismissed so that we can move to an immediate Article 39a Session. CGC has rights

 

Brilliant!

[JohnFranklin]

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks for the response.

 

Can you tell us how you came to the conclusion it is trimmed this time? Did you get the book back from the buyer and re-inspect it? Or did you just go with what you remembered from the last time you inspected it for Spider-Dan? If so, then why couldn't anyone remember this rare, pricey book just weeks after a bunch of hoopla surrounded it? (Remember, EVERYONE inspected it and determined it was trimmed for Spider-Dan). So how could NO ONE possibly remember this book just several weeks later when it was brought it for a re-sub? Can you tell us who the re-subber was? Can you tell us if the same graders and resto experts looked at it during the walk through? Who was on duty that day?

 

I know it's a lot of questions, but we all have a lot of doubts about CGC right now.

 

EDIT: Also, I hope you (CGC) didn't wait till almost 5pm to post a response, on purpose. It gives one the impression that you did it to avoid responding to any follow up questions because everyone has gone home for the day.

 

My guess here is that when Harshen told Dan that everyone with any credibility in the facility said it was trimmed, he was refering to those within the facility that specialize in resto detection, not their normal graders. So he probably showed it to Paul and Matt, since those would be the 2 people best suited to identify resto. Why would he show it to ALL of their graders? Upon resub, if the graders didn't catch any red flags, it was probably not looked at by Matt, Paul or Harshen again. Unless one of them looks at EVERY book, which I don't know if it is the case.

 

I have wondered if when the book was reintroduced to CGC and all staff concluded it was trimmed, when presented with the book were they simply told assess the book or was the concern about trimming mentioned? Anything other than saying, simply assess the book could potentially bias the staffer's conclusion.