Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[MatterEaterLad]

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update.

 

+1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something.

 

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

 

I knew I should have saved my 20,000 th post for a better moment. I have to agree here that resubbing immediately makes no sense whatsoever.....

 

You are right, it makes no sense in the context of "this is for my personal permanent collection".

 

I have books that I've resubbed for my personal permanent collection. Removed the color touch, resub, purple becomes blue. I'm happy. Looks better in my registry, etc.

[blockedshot]

Not sure I learned anything from this thread that I can apply to my daily routine, or to life in general.

[porky]

Not sure I learned anything from this thread that I can apply to my daily routine, or to life in general.

 

buy purples with "good" trimming, crack-resub-$

[CBT]

Not sure I learned anything from this thread that I can apply to my daily routine, or to life in general.

 

buy purples with "good" trimming, crack-resub-$

 

**-at walk throughs on thursdays at cons

[Bomber-Bob]

 

i'd bet $1,000. that if i resubbed my 3 books that i think are questionably touched, at least one would come back blue

 

This scares me. It appears CGC is going to be bombarded with resubmitted

PLOD's, trying to slip it past them, and then come on here and say 'I told you so'. I hope all of you waste a lot of money and still get the PLOD and a lower grade.

CGC, if you are listening, to put a stop to all this nonsense I would start grading tight, tight, tight. Let the resubs take a beating and slow this train down for a while.

[Comicdey]

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update.

 

+1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something.

 

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

 

I knew I should have saved my 20,000 th post for a better moment. I have to agree here that resubbing immediately makes no sense whatsoever.....

 

You are right, it makes no sense in the context of "this is for my personal permanent collection".

 

I have books that I've resubbed for my personal permanent collection. Removed the color touch, resub, purple becomes blue. I'm happy. Looks better in my registry, etc.

 

Understood. But You can't remove trimming

[troydivision1]

Questions for Spider-Dan:

1. If the new owner sells to CGC at $3500, are they making a profit?

2. How does this make you feel?

3. Has CGC reached out to compensate for the difference between your sale price and $3500?

[DR.X]

The poor unsuspecting collectors. It's a good thing that people didn't trim and restore books before the CGC came around or there would have been a lot of poor unsuspecting collectors then too with absolutely no idea that their books were restored and no one they could pay to give them a somewhat expert opinion either.

 

I had this book in my collection for over 30 years ( at least ) before I submitted it to CGC. The label only notes cover trimmed, but you can see the top edge was hacked to krap. Never really noticed it until it came back purple, so people were mutilating books ages ago it seems.

 

 

[TheLiamSturgess]

Sadly, I'm having to skip pages because this thread is just too damn long, but here's my take.

 

When you pay CGC, you are paying for their professional opinion on the state of a book.

 

You are not putting money in a machine that uses algorithms to calculate a grade.

 

Three highly experienced individuals take a look at your book and each give their opinion, in an efficient (and generally effective) amount of time.

 

If, in their opinion, the book is a 6.0, that book is NOT necessarily going to be a 6.0 by everyone's standards, including professionals who have been active longer than CGC.

 

If you send a book in and three of CGC's graders decide together on a 6.0 one day, then their honest opinion at that point in time is that it's a 6.0. If they say, "Hey, Paul, I'm pretty sure this one is restored." Paul says, "Yeah, I agree, but I can't be sure - I'm gonna check with a few more people," and they all agree (in their educated opinion) that it is trimmed, then the CGC designation will reflect that. Once again, that is just the company's opinion.

 

If they get the book on a different day and a different pregrader looks at it and evaluates the book using his experience and it seems to be non-trimmed and there isn't anything prompting him to look deeper or longer than any other book that gets submitted, then why would he? He passes the book on to the Primary Grader without a "trimmed" designation and the Primary Grader has no reason to dig deeper (unless he notices something the pregrader doesn't, which I'm sure happens from time to time). Then, it gets the blue label.

 

You are paying for an opinion. Nobody at CGC has a brain like a computer that allows them to give a "correct" grade. Only "as accurate as their professional experience will allow".

 

As others have said, they have graded, what, over 3 million comics? Out of that number, a handful of incidents of disagreement or conflicting CGC grades have arisen. Statistically, CGC has an incredibly high success rate and a lot of the issues out there are, in my opinion, just differences in opinion and not screwups like sending back the wrong book (has that happened before? It might have, I actually don't remember).

 

In this particular case, I'm not sure if CGC did something wrong, persay. Maybe they should have looked closer, but if the graders didn't have any indication of manipulation to the book, then I don't think we should put them on blast for missing a very close trim job. Even then, as others have said, books are weird and a book designated as "trimmed" is still just someone giving an opinion supported by evidence. If there is no evidence in someone's eyes, then they can't form that opinion.

 

CGC has decided that the book is trimmed, so they were in the right for publicly announcing that, therefore voiding their certification of the book as it is right now. Good move.

 

I disagree with the idea of removing the book from the market. The blue label already voided in the eyes of the boards, and if it comes up on the public market with the apparent trimming not disclosed, someone here will notice and will make it public. If the seller is honest about the apparent trimming, then buyers will know what they're buying into.

 

I don't think this will, or should, hurt CGC's reputation in any way, since they did everything they promised they'd do, and provided the service they paid for.

 

In the end... Buy the book, not the label. CGC is one player in a game where the most important player is yourself. Use CGC's word as an opinion only, and combine it with information provided by the seller, the community and your own judgement (which will get better the longer you're in the hobby.)

 

Just my .

[TheLiamSturgess]

All that being said... perhaps incidents like this could be avoided in the future if CGC did spend a bit more time grading and inspecting each book, so as to be 110% confident with their grade.

 

More staff, methinks.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Liaton-9000

[porky]

 

i'd bet $1,000. that if i resubbed my 3 books that i think are questionably touched, at least one would come back blue

 

This scares me. It appears CGC is going to be bombarded with resubmitted

PLOD's, trying to slip it past them, and then come on here and say 'I told you so'. I hope all of you waste a lot of money and still get the PLOD and a lower grade.

CGC, if you are listening, to put a stop to all this nonsense I would start grading tight, tight, tight. Let the resubs take a beating and slow this train down for a while.

 

people have gotten CT and trims for books they bought new. why not? the fact thay they're SS is the only thing stopping me. too easy to track.

Edited April 2, 2014 by porky

[porky]

Sadly, I'm having to skip pages because this thread is just too damn long, but here's my take.

 

When you pay CGC, you are paying for their professional opinion on the state of a book.

 

You are not putting money in a machine that uses algorithms to calculate a grade.

 

Three highly experienced individuals take a look at your book and each give their opinion, in an efficient (and generally effective) amount of time.

 

If, in their opinion, the book is a 6.0, that book is NOT necessarily going to be a 6.0 by everyone's standards, including professionals who have been active longer than CGC.

 

If you send a book in and three of CGC's graders decide together on a 6.0 one day, then their honest opinion at that point in time is that it's a 6.0. If they say, "Hey, Paul, I'm pretty sure this one is restored." Paul says, "Yeah, I agree, but I can't be sure - I'm gonna check with a few more people," and they all agree (in their educated opinion) that it is trimmed, then the CGC designation will reflect that. Once again, that is just the company's opinion.

 

If they get the book on a different day and a different pregrader looks at it and evaluates the book using his experience and it seems to be non-trimmed and there isn't anything prompting him to look deeper or longer than any other book that gets submitted, then why would he? He passes the book on to the Primary Grader without a "trimmed" designation and the Primary Grader has no reason to dig deeper (unless he notices something the pregrader doesn't, which I'm sure happens from time to time). Then, it gets the blue label.

 

You are paying for an opinion. Nobody at CGC has a brain like a computer that allows them to give a "correct" grade. Only "as accurate as their professional experience will allow".

 

As others have said, they have graded, what, over 3 million comics? Out of that number, a handful of incidents of disagreement or conflicting CGC grades have arisen. Statistically, CGC has an incredibly high success rate and a lot of the issues out there are, in my opinion, just differences in opinion and not screwups like sending back the wrong book (has that happened before? It might have, I actually don't remember).

 

In this particular case, I'm not sure if CGC did something wrong, persay. Maybe they should have looked closer, but if the graders didn't have any indication of manipulation to the book, then I don't think we should put them on blast for missing a very close trim job. Even then, as others have said, books are weird and a book designated as "trimmed" is still just someone giving an opinion supported by evidence. If there is no evidence in someone's eyes, then they can't form that opinion.

 

CGC has decided that the book is trimmed, so they were in the right for publicly announcing that, therefore voiding their certification of the book as it is right now. Good move.

 

I disagree with the idea of removing the book from the market. The blue label already voided in the eyes of the boards, and if it comes up on the public market with the apparent trimming not disclosed, someone here will notice and will make it public. If the seller is honest about the apparent trimming, then buyers will know what they're buying into.

 

I don't think this will, or should, hurt CGC's reputation in any way, since they did everything they promised they'd do, and provided the service they paid for.

 

In the end... Buy the book, not the label. CGC is one player in a game where the most important player is yourself. Use CGC's word as an opinion only, and combine it with information provided by the seller, the community and your own judgement (which will get better the longer you're in the hobby.)

 

Just my .

 

so the resto detection you paid for is only triggered "if it looks fishy". nice to know. this is a big sign that says "DO GOOD RESTO, GET BLUE LABEL"

[porky]

also, since they got so greedy with the grader notes, it would be a nice consolation prize to give proud owners of a purple label free grader's notes detailing the "restoration detected". i'd feel at least slightly better if they had to tell me, for free, where the invisible CT is on my books that looked fine to me when i sent them in. and since i nearly only SS, it's not like i can crack and look better myself without ruining the SS designation.

[techtre2003]

So between the 3 submissions of this one book (that we know of) and the graders notes purchased for the book; how much $$$ did CGC make?

 

After those 3 submissions it was determined:

 

-The book may be trimmed it may not - who knows?*

-The book is somewhere between a 6.0 and 7.0*

-The pages are either OW or OW/W*

 

*This is in no way a guarantee it is just our opinion based on factors we won't tell you about. And we do make plenty of mistakes but it's ok because we are human. We will however guarantee you a nice plastic case so you never have to be bothered to read your comic again AND a pretty label...

 

And after all this people still throw money at the company so fast that they are perpetually backed up with submissions. Even the OP who seems completely disgusted with what happened said he will keep going on business as usual.

 

So guess what, this is absolutely no skin off of CGC's back. It's nice to think this will open up their eyes and will make them feel compelled to become more transparent but it won't. Whoever said it earlier in this thread hit the nail on the head: these kinds of things happens because we (as a collective group) let them happen. We scream and yell for a few days and then everyone goes back to posting about how much kav posts and making silly memes. Personally, I think I'll stick with evaluating my own books and paying a fraction of the cost of the CGC equivalent to get them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[techtre2003]

 

If, in their opinion, the book is a 6.0, that book is NOT necessarily going to be a 6.0 by everyone's standards, including professionals who have been active longer than CGC.

 

If you send a book in and three of CGC's graders decide together on a 6.0 one day, then their honest opinion at that point in time is that it's a 6.0. If they say, "Hey, Paul, I'm pretty sure this one is restored." Paul says, "Yeah, I agree, but I can't be sure - I'm gonna check with a few more people," and they all agree (in their educated opinion) that it is trimmed, then the CGC designation will reflect that. Once again, that is just the company's opinion.

 

If they get the book on a different day and a different pregrader looks at it and evaluates the book using his experience and it seems to be non-trimmed and there isn't anything prompting him to look deeper or longer than any other book that gets submitted, then why would he? He passes the book on to the Primary Grader without a "trimmed" designation and the Primary Grader has no reason to dig deeper (unless he notices something the pregrader doesn't, which I'm sure happens from time to time). Then, it gets the blue label.

 

 

I can post scans in the Please Grade My section and get the same service; except there I'll have my answer within the hour.

[Underground44]

Without Kav, this thread would be three pages.

 

People used to say that about me.

Yep. I'm the new whipping boy. And, I relish my role.

 

I chuckle at some of your posts, but my eyes start to glaze over when I see your avatar and I have a problem with attention as it is.

Ok now THIS I understand.

I'm outta here.

 

Until now I've never seen someone on these forums post 100 times a day. It's insane...

My prediction is that Kav will one day get into a boardie disagreement and get a strike and be sent on a holiday - it's inevitable if history repeats itself (and it usually does on the CGC boards)

[gaz973]

Do people not realise that by constantly responding to Kav, they insure that he'll post another dozen posts of garbage? Ignore him and he'll probably get bored eventually and maybe find something more worthwhile to do.

[Underground44]

Yeah you're probably right. Where the hell do these people come from?

 

[Unca Ben]

Kav's okay.

 

He's not as deft at embellishment as some, that's all.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Whilst I'm sure that this whole incident has been shocking for the OP - and obviously world-shattering for a lot of the responders - I'm really not sure why?

 

The bottom line here is that an opinion has changed. That the consequences of said changed opinion are so huge has nothing to do with CGC and everything to do with us, the marketplace.

 

Being brutally honest, despite their deliberately misleading business name, CGC guarantees nothing other than the fact that a couple of nameless employees, with unknown credentials, working to undisclosed 'standards', will take a gander at your book. The next time said book comes back through Sarasota, it will be a different pair of nameless employees, with unknown credentials, working to undisclosed 'standards',who will give it the once over. It might also be examined during show season, when the pressure is huge to turn books around and employees are working 50% longer hours. It might also be examined during a 'lax' period of grading.

 

All in all, it's not exactly a model for consistency and in truth, you're likely to get more consistency (please note I didn't say 'more accuracy', as that's a whole other debate) buying raw books from the same dealer over and over again.

 

And yet we, the market, put so much store by these entombed collectibles that we are willing to pay huge premiums for exactly the same item we could have bought outside of a slab, solely on the basis of the Big Number.

 

But that Big Number can change in the blink of an eye, as can the fetching shade of the label, obviously.

 

Does nobody else grasp the lunacy inherent in this scenario?

 

CGC will make mistakes. CGC will continue to be inconsistent. It's not just because 'they're only human', but also because their internal processes contains flaws and also because the whole model is ripe for being gamed.

 

If more people truly understood this, we'd have a much more stable market, IMHO.