Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

AND what happens when CGC counters buy lowering their prices a bit and then you might be forced to change your pricing model, or you get one big submitter early on (before you're ready) and it destroys your turnaround times.

 

CGC will not lower its prices, unless they are forced to by market realities.

 

They will not be forced to for many years, if ever.

 

And controlling a big submitter early on is a very easy problem to deal with. You talk to the big submitter upfront and negotiate.

 

Preparation is the single greatest reason for success that exists. You don't go into anything "before you're ready", and that includes sitting down and discussing potential scenarios and planning for them.

 

Corporations do it every day.

 

Unfortunately, many of the employees you need with proper experience probably work for CGC, so you'd have to hire them away, which means most likely paying them more, AND I think Florida has no state income tax.

 

Soooo....it'd be tough.

 

It's a proper monopoly, and not one easily ended.

 

The keys are two: capital, and absolute commitment by a competent person at the top.

 

 

[kav]

 

Imagine a Russian Roulette game. Some of the guns have 6 bullets, some 5 etc.

Would you rather play with a gun that had been examined first by a third party to assure that it has one bullet and only one or a gun that had no guarantee it was examined, you just had the word of another player?

Once in a while the third party might screw up and not detect an extra bullet or two. (Don't ask me why)

Also, would you play a game of Russian Roulette with an automatic?

[techtre2003]

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

This.

 

+1

 

+1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now?

 

Granted the notable flaw on this particular JIM 83 would preclude it from being a 7.0 for many here, but not everyone judging by some of the raw grades I've seen posted in the sales forum. Early in this thread bomber-bob mentions when the book was his, he didn't resubmit, as he was told by Matt (Nelson?) that it could as easily come back a 5.5 as a 6.5. That's a three grade range. So is 6.0-7.0. Neither range is any more or less indicative of a standard, it's just that Matt and CGC's mid-point differs slightly.

 

There seems to be an expectation that a company that uses multiple shifting graders, in a hobby where grading criteria has never been set in stone, should have sharply defined grading standards that would narrow the potential grade range further. Not an unreasonable expectation for a company whose reputation is built on their ability to grade, but repeated examples of grade changes shown on these boards indicate that will not be the case 100% of the time.

 

I don't believe anyone routinely grades based on a deductive point system to arrive at a number, The variety, size and compound nature of individual flaws would make this make this increasingly complicated as one goes down the grading ladder. Even if CGCs graders are given a grading "bible" to memorize and follow, gut feel is going to be a determining factor at arriving at a specific grade, as it is for just about all of us (whether we admit it or not). I qualify this, as there is possibly at least one OCD boardie who sits down with a graphing calculator when grading books.

 

 

Bottom line is the quality and consistency coming out of CGC right now seems to be on par with what a somewhat knowledgeable collector could produce.

 

I wouldn't go that far at all. I still see a much higher rate of error come from some of the "best" dealers. In my last 6 purchases I had only 1 correctly graded.

I had one book with both a detached cover and a little bit of glue missed. If CGC was roughly as good as the "best" dealers I'm guessing most wouldn't pay for the service.

 

Correctly graded by who though? I wouldn't call a dealer who missed a detached cover one of the best! If you feel CGC has been accurate and consistent with your books than I can't argue with you and wouldn't try to; you're happy with the service that's great. I'm just looking at this example with Spider-Dan and shaking my head. And let's not forget it wasn't just the JIM 83 he sent in that went from blue 6.0 to purple 7.0 but on the same submission had the Avengers #1 go from blue 7.0 to purple 6.0.

 

I'm guessing a lot of people don't use the service because they think the grading is as good as the best dealers. I'd say they are using the service because they get a crazy premium on books because they are graded by CGC.

 

When I state the "Best" I mean some of the best rated dealers from Cheetahs list.

These were mostly books with clear errors and missed damage like a large vertical front crease along the spine on a NM book. And I would say the boardie grading here is even worse.

 

Another point is the middle grades tend to be the hardest to correctly grade.

 

No I don't think CGC are always "accurate and consistent" but the point I am making is if you think they are "on par with what a somewhat knowledgeable collector" grading is then you are likely not buying enough books. Or any books with a larger dollar amount attached. If so I would love to know your sources.

 

If best rated dealers are missing stuff like that I'd have to ask why they are top rated; just like I'm questioning CGC. Out of all the boardies here I'd be at the bottom of the list of top graders but even I've gotten pretty decent about looking at books and coming within a grade or 2 of the consensus. I guess I'd expect top dealers to be much better than me at grading but if not that's another problem itself.

[Wall-Crawler]

Did The CGC say anything besides they were trying to buy the book to take it off the market and that it IS restored?

 

Did they give any comments on how it became Blue again?

[namisgr]

Yes, CGC said they made a mistake with the most recent grading of the JIM83, because the book was trimmed.

[Wall-Crawler]

Yes, CGC said they made a mistake with the most recent grading of the JIM83, because the book was trimmed.

 

Thank you! (thumbs u

 

Now to find some other epic thread to read...

[techtre2003]

 

"Just imagine out of 3 Million comics graded how many would be sitting with unknown resto and unknown grades in people's collections."

 

Would those people be any less happy with those books though?

 

That would be up to them to answer. Everyone finds enjoyment in a different way but happiness wasn't really the point of my post.

 

It's important to keep the discussion in perspective. We are talking about getting what you pay for when buying a comic and fact is that you are getting that to a much greater (almost 100%) degree post CGC than you would be pre CGC.

 

Like I said, I remember older back issues from catalogs and often getting entirely the wrong book, let alone the wrong grade or with resto.

 

And if you don't like CGC, no problem. You can either crack your graded books out (something many people who enjoy touching their comics do) or simply buy raw based on your own skill set.

 

Your perspective and mine are much different though. Like I said earlier, you were buying serious books when I was a kid grabbing dog eared books from the spinner racks, a $15 book in a bag and board was a big purchase, and if I had even heard about CGC then I would have thought you were talking about some secret government agency

 

I can only speak from the limited experience I have and what I have seen over the last couple years since I've gotten back into the hobby. Even though it may not sound like it sometimes, I do take what you vets have to say seriously. I'm just sharing what I have seen and as a newbie how I feel about it all (thumbs u

 

Oh, and on that last part about cracking and buying raw, I got that one down

 

 

[techtre2003]

Imagine a Russian Roulette game. Some of the guns have 6 bullets, some 5 etc.

Would you rather play with a gun that had been examined first by a third party to assure that it has one bullet and only one or a gun that had no guarantee it was examined, you just had the word of another player?

Once in a while the third party might screw up and not detect an extra bullet or two. (Don't ask me why)

Also, would you play a game of Russian Roulette with an automatic?

 

I thought you had your own thread to post in now

[kav]

Imagine a Russian Roulette game. Some of the guns have 6 bullets, some 5 etc.

Would you rather play with a gun that had been examined first by a third party to assure that it has one bullet and only one or a gun that had no guarantee it was examined, you just had the word of another player?

Once in a while the third party might screw up and not detect an extra bullet or two. (Don't ask me why)

Also, would you play a game of Russian Roulette with an automatic?

 

I thought you had your own thread to post in now

Yeah that was just a cameo.

[VintageComics]

Your perspective and mine are much different though. Like I said earlier, you were buying serious books when I was a kid grabbing dog eared books from the spinner racks, a $15 book in a bag and board was a big purchase, and if I had even heard about CGC then I would have thought you were talking about some secret government agency

 

I can only speak from the limited experience I have and what I have seen over the last couple years since I've gotten back into the hobby. Even though it may not sound like it sometimes, I do take what you vets have to say seriously. I'm just sharing what I have seen and as a newbie how I feel about it all (thumbs u

 

Oh, and on that last part about cracking and buying raw, I got that one down

 

 

I'm no different then you. When I got back into comics back in 2002 or 2003 I had no idea what CGC was.

 

The big picture is what matters if people want to throw around sweeping criticisms. Otherwise we lose all perspective.

 

 

[techtre2003]

Your perspective and mine are much different though. Like I said earlier, you were buying serious books when I was a kid grabbing dog eared books from the spinner racks, a $15 book in a bag and board was a big purchase, and if I had even heard about CGC then I would have thought you were talking about some secret government agency

 

I can only speak from the limited experience I have and what I have seen over the last couple years since I've gotten back into the hobby. Even though it may not sound like it sometimes, I do take what you vets have to say seriously. I'm just sharing what I have seen and as a newbie how I feel about it all (thumbs u

 

Oh, and on that last part about cracking and buying raw, I got that one down

 

 

I'm no different then you. When I got back into comics back in 2002 or 2003 I had no idea what CGC was.

 

The big picture is what matters if people want to throw around sweeping criticisms. Otherwise we lose all perspective.

 

 

But you are different. You knew what it was like trying to buy books before CGC so you compare that experience to your experience now that you have CGC. That's fine, and I believe you when you say it was better than before. I'm just coming in with a "fresh set of eyes" and see things differently. I can't say "well it's a lot better than what we had before". I can only say "this is what we have?"

 

 

[VintageComics]

Your perspective and mine are much different though. Like I said earlier, you were buying serious books when I was a kid grabbing dog eared books from the spinner racks, a $15 book in a bag and board was a big purchase, and if I had even heard about CGC then I would have thought you were talking about some secret government agency

 

I can only speak from the limited experience I have and what I have seen over the last couple years since I've gotten back into the hobby. Even though it may not sound like it sometimes, I do take what you vets have to say seriously. I'm just sharing what I have seen and as a newbie how I feel about it all (thumbs u

 

Oh, and on that last part about cracking and buying raw, I got that one down

 

 

I'm no different then you. When I got back into comics back in 2002 or 2003 I had no idea what CGC was.

 

The big picture is what matters if people want to throw around sweeping criticisms. Otherwise we lose all perspective.

 

 

But you are different. You knew what it was like trying to buy books before CGC so you compare that experience to your experience now that you have CGC. That's fine, and I believe you when you say it was better than before. I'm just coming in with a "fresh set of eyes" and see things differently. I can't say "well it's a lot better than what we had before". I can only say "this is what we have?"

 

 

Well, as I've said several times it was a crapshoot.

 

Everyone graded differently (they still do), numerous people did not disclose restoration (many still don't) and before the internet often you'd even have someone ship you the wrong book, never mind the wrong grade.

 

As far as buying without actually having to be there in person, 3rd party authentication has changed the way people buy and sell on the internet. It's brought a form of authentication and standardization that was unavailable any other way.

[jbud73]

This isn't your typical case.

 

The original thread went to great lengths to explain an issue which CGC has itself regarded "rare."

 

The issue spread outside of these boards, and I'd even caught wind of people talking about this outside of the Bleeding Cool article.

 

I'll give you that there have been a number of "discussed" situations of blue to purple in the over ten years I've been here. I knew of a handful myself, and they were the basis to me posing the hypothetical scenario to Mark Zaid in the CCS coming out thread.

 

However, the fact pattern discussed in the OP's original incident thread, and what's taken place now, simply cannot be compared to any single or multiple incident forum members here experienced.

 

To reiterate. Two blue label books, both submitted by the same person, turning purple, despite CGC's insistence this is a "rare" event. And, no way, no how were they wrong about the regrade opinion - they were convinced both deserved to be in purple holders.

 

One comes back blue within the space of a little over a month of the OP first going public.

 

This is no longer a discussion about "acceptable" human fallibility. This makes PGX look competent.

 

There was obviously much discussion about this at the ECCC Convention, I think in person discussions are always more poignant as people tend to consider what they say, as the language is tied to them in a real world setting.

 

Joseph characterizes the salient points here and I believe Namisgr and others have indicated that it is not a "New" occurrence for Purple to turn Blue - I accept Joseph's point that this situation is different. In situation A) Everyone at CGC involved in grading saw the book, knew what they were looking for and affirmed that they saw it. In situation B) they didn't take it seriously, missed that there was indeed no resto, so it comes back Blue during the "blind" resub. Neither of those scenarios is appealing to say the least.

 

Nobody knows the exact frequency, not even CGC, as most re-subs are raw. The discussion has also covered the "guarantee" aspects of CGC - I hope most people here understand that there is no guarantee.

 

So what do I seek to add I think the idea of consistency.

 

I accept that CGC is not perfect, humans are fallible and grading is subjective. I think you have to accept those statements as fact if you want to collect certified comic books. I tend to argue that collectors do NOT factor in those statements enough when they are buying certified books and I'm thankful that they don't when I sell them.

 

Still consistency, that is what it comes back to for me and that was the topic of more than a few of the discussions I had with very experienced collectors and dealers, with hundreds, thousands - combined maybe even hundreds of thousands of submissions when this topic arose over the weekend.

 

The general consensus and true this maybe skewed by that fact that this combination of people knew A LOT of the "issues" CGC has been having over the past few years - all accepted that Trimming was probably the toughest defect to consistently detect. But all of that said, there were some serious, well reasoned, calm, professionally stated "concerns" about CGC's consistency and their dealings with issues such as the recent "Spider-Dan Gate" situation. As one collector said to me, 'if CGC can't consistently detect trimming, that definitely devalues their product to me.'

 

IMO a measure of a company is what it does, not when things are all systems go and ideal - the company should be judged with how it deals with adversity externally AND internally. The kindest way I can put this is that CGC has some work to do on both accounts. Will they do it? Hard to say. I know Paul and Sean and some others there, but I'm not sure who institutes planning and policy for CGC's internal structure and associated functions. It looks like Harshen has the ball on external policy for these situations, or is at least he is the front person. I hope all collectors, even the harshest CGC critics, and I have been harsh on them from time to time, understand that it is in the best interest of the Hobby that 'certification' exists. However, what I hope CGC realizes as a purveyor of certification is that consistency is the single most important characteristic in their business methodology. I think they do realize that, the crux is how important is that realization, in terms of effort required here and their willingness to, through action, legitimately maintain it.

 

The thing that swirls around in my head is, is the JIM actually trimmed? Those people that said destroy the book what is needed is a final determination, and the resulting examination of where CGC made missteps. I really hope they exercise legitimate due diligence on this one for the overall good of certification in the hobby.

 

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

[VintageComics]

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

Your car sucks.

 

[chrisco37]

It would a long slow expensive process.

Unless you solicited/undermined a great number of CGC's big submitters and got them to sign on board with you day one...

 

And how would you get them to do that? Without promising something that might compromise what you're trying to do in the first place.

 

Are people REALLY that unhappy with CGC?

 

Or are there just too many people clinging to the cash cow now?

 

Exactly. Start up costs aside, this would be the most important thing.

 

You'd have to have "buy-in" from some hobby "heavies".

 

Paying overguide and even multiples of guide had been around since Chuck brought the Church books to market. But it was mostly reserved for the few pedigrees and a few other exceptional copies. When Parino (sp?) dropped record $$$ in the early days (I forget which auction), that's when CGC was legitimized and gained instant marketplace acceptance.

 

You'd need someone with eff-you type money to do the same for the new company, if it were really trying to instantly compete with CGC. Someone or a group of people would have to pay CGC prices on some of the big books before the masses would buy in. But, who would do that at this point?

 

When PGX/CCG first started up (and before they shot themselves in the foot one too many times), their books didn't sell for quite as much as CGC books, but they were close. Unfortunately, they screwed themselves over. Now people aren't sending those big keys and ultra HG books to them. There is no incentive to do it versus using CGC.

 

CGC had a lot of things going for them. In Steve, they had a face of the company with a great reputation in the hobby. The internet and eBay were becoming the main way for people to buy and sell books. And they had someone in Parino with the money to spend to help legitimize the idea of certified comic books.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

Your car sucks.

 

 

Says the guy without a car.

 

[chrisco37]

So what do I seek to add I think the idea of consistency.

 

I accept that CGC is not perfect, humans are fallible and grading is subjective. I think you have to accept those statements as fact if you want to collect certified comic books. I tend to argue that collectors do NOT factor in those statements enough when they are buying certified books and I'm thankful that they don't when I sell them.

 

Still consistency, that is what it comes back to for me and that was the topic of more than a few of the discussions I had with very experienced collectors and dealers, with hundreds, thousands - combined maybe even hundreds of thousands of submissions when this topic arose over the weekend.

 

The general consensus and true this maybe skewed by that fact that this combination of people knew A LOT of the "issues" CGC has been having over the past few years - all accepted that Trimming was probably the toughest defect to consistently detect. But all of that said, there were some serious, well reasoned, calm, professionally stated "concerns" about CGC's consistency and their dealings with issues such as the recent "Spider-Dan Gate" situation. As one collector said to me, 'if CGC can't consistently detect trimming, that definitely devalues their product to me.'

 

IMO a measure of a company is what it does, not when things are all systems go and ideal - the company should be judged with how it deals with adversity externally AND internally. The kindest way I can put this is that CGC has some work to do on both accounts. Will they do it? Hard to say. I know Paul and Sean and some others there, but I'm not sure who institutes planning and policy for CGC's internal structure and associated functions. It looks like Harshen has the ball on external policy for these situations, or is at least he is the front person. I hope all collectors, even the harshest CGC critics, and I have been harsh on them from time to time, understand that it is in the best interest of the Hobby that 'certification' exists. However, what I hope CGC realizes as a purveyor of certification is that consistency is the single most important characteristic in their business methodology. I think they do realize that, the crux is how important is that realization, in terms of effort required here and their willingness to, through action, legitimately maintain it.

 

The thing that swirls around in my head is, is the JIM actually trimmed? Those people that said destroy the book what is needed is a final determination, and the resulting examination of where CGC made missteps. I really hope they exercise legitimate due diligence on this one for the overall good of certification in the hobby.

 

Was great seeing all the "Usual and unusual Suspects" in Seattle.

 

Best

Jason

 

 

You should post more often. (thumbs u

 

When the update was posted regarding the book going back to blue, and the backlash was getting amped up, and people were asking what CGC was going to do, etc... I thought about when the Ewert stuff first went down. I remember a post that you made about crisis management and damage control. It was in response to CGC creating the advisory board (anyone remember that?) made up of customers (including board members).

[techtre2003]

Your perspective and mine are much different though. Like I said earlier, you were buying serious books when I was a kid grabbing dog eared books from the spinner racks, a $15 book in a bag and board was a big purchase, and if I had even heard about CGC then I would have thought you were talking about some secret government agency

 

I can only speak from the limited experience I have and what I have seen over the last couple years since I've gotten back into the hobby. Even though it may not sound like it sometimes, I do take what you vets have to say seriously. I'm just sharing what I have seen and as a newbie how I feel about it all (thumbs u

 

Oh, and on that last part about cracking and buying raw, I got that one down

 

 

I'm no different then you. When I got back into comics back in 2002 or 2003 I had no idea what CGC was.

 

The big picture is what matters if people want to throw around sweeping criticisms. Otherwise we lose all perspective.

 

 

But you are different. You knew what it was like trying to buy books before CGC so you compare that experience to your experience now that you have CGC. That's fine, and I believe you when you say it was better than before. I'm just coming in with a "fresh set of eyes" and see things differently. I can't say "well it's a lot better than what we had before". I can only say "this is what we have?"

 

 

Well, as I've said several times it was a crapshoot.

 

Everyone graded differently (they still do), numerous people did not disclose restoration (many still don't) and before the internet often you'd even have someone ship you the wrong book, never mind the wrong grade.

 

As far as buying without actually having to be there in person, 3rd party authentication has changed the way people buy and sell on the internet. It's brought a form of authentication and standardization that was unavailable any other way.

 

ok, I can accept the idea that they have made buying and selling online much better. That's really the only value I myself see in a grading company anyway. So when the only reason I am going to use your service is shown to have flaws like we've seen here it really doesn't instill a lot of confidence. I want to back a product because I think it's a great product. Not because it's the only real game in town and the alternatives suck.

 

[VintageComics]

So when the only reason I am going to use your service is shown to have flaws like we've seen here it really doesn't instill a lot of confidence.

 

When you are have a 98% chance that a book is restored or a 98% chance a book is not restored, which one instills more confidence?

[THE_BEYONDER]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?