Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[LordRahl]

Not to mention that micro-trimming is only one of a myriad of things that could be done to a book. Most of those other things are caught much more reliably.

 

Like pressing?

 

I haven't made up my mind one way or another as to whether I consider it resto or not (it just doesn't matter that much to me), but let's not get down that rat hole.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Not to mention that micro-trimming is only one of a myriad of things that could be done to a book. Most of those other things are caught much more reliably.

 

Like pressing?

 

I haven't made up my mind one way or another as to whether I consider it resto or not (it just doesn't matter that much to me), but let's not get down that rat hole.

 

Well....for the record...I do.

 

'Nuff said about that.

[LordRahl]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

 

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

 

First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby.....

 

Well that's kind of where I'm going with this. I think the number of people that can accurately detect it is a list we the board members can probably come up with. It will number less than 100 people, of that I'm sure. It would need to be either resto people like Matt, Trace Heft, Susan Ciccone etc. or long time dealers who deal in Silver and Gold predominantly that have seen literally tens of thousands of books and would know what to look for (Storms, Yee etc).

 

There are how many comic collectors do you think? 400-500K? 1M? Do that math.

Edited April 3, 2014 by LordRahl

[THE_BEYONDER]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

 

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

 

First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby.....

 

Well that's kind of where I'm going with this. I think the number of people that can accurately detect it is a list we the board members can probably come up with. It will number less than 100 people, of that I'm sure. It would need to be either resto people like Matt, Trace Heft, Susan Ciccone etc. or long time dealers who deal in Silver and Gold predominantly that have seen literally tens of thousands of books and would know what to look for (Storms, Yee etc).

 

There are how many comic collectors do you think? 400-500K? 1M? Do that math.

 

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

[LordRahl]

And actually I have some serious doubts as to whether the dealers would be able to spot micro-trimming. But for the sake of argument let's say some can. The numbers will still be overwhelming. 99.9% is about accurate.

[djpinkpanther67]

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

 

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

 

First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby.....

 

Well that's kind of where I'm going with this. I think the number of people that can accurately detect it is a list we the board members can probably come up with. It will number less than 100 people, of that I'm sure. It would need to be either resto people like Matt, Trace Heft, Susan Ciccone etc. or long time dealers who deal in Silver and Gold predominantly that have seen literally tens of thousands of books and would know what to look for (Storms, Yee etc).

 

There are how many comic collectors do you think? 400-500K? 1M? Do that math.

Dupkak proclaimed he could, and I believe D&S stated he could as well

[LordRahl]

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

 

That's exactly the point I was arguing

[ComicLock-migration]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

[Rip]

When it comes to detecting restoration, I can say from personal experience that the resto people make errors also, in fact multiple errors in the last 6 months.

 

I've also missing trimming on more than one book in the last 6 months. (2 books)

I hate it, but its a continual problem.

 

Its also a problem with sports cards where trimming is much more common.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Rip

[THE_BEYONDER]

You also have to think of all the comics CGC has helped save by being established. People are less likely to restore a comic these days and are satisfied with a lower grade book if all original. How would you like 50-75 percent of comics to be restored today or atleast 25 percent if CGC didnt exist.

 

I'm not suggesting CGC hasn't done good things for the hobby, I'm merely suggesting that their detection efforts are lacking.

[LordRahl]

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

 

That's exactly the point I was arguing

 

You are going to have to explain that one to me. If that's where you were going, that most collectors can't spot resto, then why ask why people would continue to pay to have their books slabbed? The answer should be obvious.

 

Not to mention that resto check isn't the only thing that you get. The third party grade is just as important. But that is a different discussion.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

 

That's exactly the point I was arguing

 

You are going to have to explain that one to me. If that's where you were going, that most collectors can't spot resto, then why ask why people would continue to pay to have their books slabbed? The answer should be obvious.

 

Not to mention that resto check isn't the only thing that you get. The third party grade is just as important. But that is a different discussion.

 

The point your trying to make is that CGC can detect trimming more accurately than 99.9% of collectors. You're making that point to support their service.

 

My point is that your statistic isn't significantly supportive.

[LordRahl]

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

 

That's exactly the point I was arguing

 

You are going to have to explain that one to me. If that's where you were going, that most collectors can't spot resto, then why ask why people would continue to pay to have their books slabbed? The answer should be obvious.

 

Not to mention that resto check isn't the only thing that you get. The third party grade is just as important. But that is a different discussion.

 

The point your trying to make is that CGC can detect trimming more accurately than 99.9% of collectors. You're making that point to support their service.

 

My point is that your statistic isn't significantly supportive.

 

How is it not significantly supportive? You can do something better than 99.9% of the people that want to do that thing (whatever it may be). That isn't significant? I think maybe your definition of significant needs to have its expectations lowered

[Mike's Rack]

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

This would be great but this is not reality. The reality is, right now, no one in this hobby is better at detecting resto than CGC. They made a mistake on this book, that sucks. Tomorrow, they will still be the best at detecting resto. It would take years for a new company to approach CGCs ability to detect resto and more years to convince the market. What they have learned from the Ewert scandal and several other lesser mess storms is invaluable. Even after this situation, there is still no one I'd trust more with a resto check than CGC.

 

CGC has some real issues, the lack of communication and slow TAT's spring to mind and competition would be great, but there is a reason that no one has taken that dive.

 

I think people need to reassess what they thought they were buying when they pay a premium for a CGC book. If CGC's opinion is not worth the price then so be it, but remember, whenever you buy a book, graded or raw, you are paying for SOMEONES opinion. Be it a dealer at a con or a fool on Ebay. How to value that option is up to the market. I still find CGCs opinion to be more valuable than just about everyone in this hobby, and I will still pay more for it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think maybe your definition of significant needs to have its expectations lowered

 

[revat]

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

This would be great but this is not reality. The reality is, right now, no one in this hobby is better at detecting resto than CGC. They made a mistake on this book, that sucks. Tomorrow, they will still be the best at detecting resto. It would take years for a new company to approach CGCs ability to detect resto and more years to convince the market. What they have learned from the Ewert scandal and several other lesser mess storms is invaluable. Even after this situation, there is still no one I'd trust more with a resto check than CGC.

 

CGC has some real issues, the lack of communication and slow TAT's spring to mind and competition would be great, but there is a reason that no one has taken that dive.

 

I think people need to reassess what they thought they were buying when they pay a premium for a CGC book. If CGC's opinion is not worth the price then so be it, but remember, whenever you buy a book, graded or raw, you are paying for SOMEONES opinion. Be it a dealer at a con or a fool on Ebay. How to value that option is up to the market. I still find CGCs opinion to be more valuable than just about everyone in this hobby, and I will still pay more for it.

 

Like testing for steroids/peds. The Olympics has the best doctors in the world working for them, testing for banned substances. If something gets past them, or there are some false positives, or a botched sample, or an equipment malfunction, a tester has a bad day, or its inconclusive, they are still the best testers with the best techniques available. But they're human, the techniques aren't flawless, and there VERY smart people working constantly to slip something past them. Doesn't mean they're not the best, doesn't mean they're not working to get better.

[skypinkblu]

When CGC came to the market, they made a big impact by claiming that they could detect restoration.

 

All of a sudden we had a "purple label of death".

 

Before that, restoration was not used with words like "death". Some people actually sought out restorers to fix up books that needed some help. Kind of like fixing up a car.

 

Yes there were people who cheated and didn't disclose restoration, but it was still not the horror it later became.

 

It was a great campaign slogan for CGC that they could detect restoration, and it worked...except...

 

for pressing. Pressing was not restoration because

 

1. it could not be detected all the time ...and

2. some of it might have been natural.

 

That's why it's so hard to detect trimming...some of it might have been production related.

 

I don't try and buy trimmed books...but mostly because people have drummed it into my head that this is destruction. There was a time I would not buy a pressed book...but now, I've even had some books pressed that I intend to keep. Not many, but I do have a few.

 

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. CGC obviously can't guarantee that they can detect pressing or micro trimming. Perhaps we as collectors have to think about how horrid that is...

 

Or many how horrid it might not be...

 

A lot of the horror, might have been due to some ad campaigns.

 

I know I would take that JIM 83 in a nano second, I would have loved to have it in my collection. Would I love a book with 1/4 inch chopped off...maybe not so much...but I think we need to evaluate what we've been talked into believing the past 12 years.

 

The company is not perfect. Collecting is not perfect. The company does a decent job of detecting most hidden restoration. Some of it is going to slip through.

 

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

[kav]

Maybe they should admit they can't detect well done trimming and start offering a trimming service....

[rjpb]

Maybe they should admit they can't detect well done trimming and start offering a trimming service....