Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[skypinkblu]

Oh, and I have nothing against gamblers at all...but none of the ones I know would start a thread, .

 

They like to keep their secrets for potential wins, secret.

 

 

and there I was...trying to let him continue to work in stealth mode;)

[Davenport]

I'm guessing if that 7.0 Purple had been Blue, the book would've never darkened CGC's door again ever. Surely players have a sense of when a playing piece is 'tapped out'.

 

But any wiggle room left at all, somebody will give it a go.

[skypinkblu]

 

 

I wonder what the percentage is of forum members who crack DO NOT PRESS and reslab?

 

 

 

Well I do that sort of. But its out of eccentricity I guess not to turn a profit.Although I love profits I am very much a collector. I bought a large percentage of my books slabbed because the product was simply higher quality than raw and cracked almost every one and put them in my collection.

 

When i resell the big dollar books i simply have to recert in order to reach top market value. I went through this recently with my copy of AF15. I bought it 9 years ago as a CGC 5.5 and cracked it open and put it in my collection. I read it about once a year over that time period. The value of the book rose so much recently that i felt i just had to move it as I am looking to buy some property this year.

 

I sent it back to CGC and was a bit nervous even though I was confident the book was in the exact same condition as it was when i cracked it. I countered this by sending the old blue label in with the book waving a flag to CGC saying "I hope this doesn't come back a 5.0!" which made me feel a little better about it. Even still i knew it could regrade under 5.5 and felt there was a slight shot it could come back a 6.0 as well. The end result was it came back universal 5.5 and i sold it in a week for a very nice profit. So by cracking it open i paid $460 dollars to enjoy reading the book for 9 years when i felt like it but there was the risk it could cost me more. I would imagine I am not the only collector who does this but I think I am in the minority.

 

My Wonder Woman 1 had the pages reversed (it was restored). Someone had restored it and put them back in reverse order. I bought it that way on eBay.

 

It was driving me nuts (even though it was slabbed) So... I had the pages put back in the right place. It came back a full grade lower, . That was at least 7 or 8 years ago. It was also pressed when the pages were fixed, I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

 

I would send the label back if I did that again, too...but people who are hoping to make money on this, probably don't want to waive flags at the people grading...besides, I understand the graders don't see the old labels.

[Buzzetta]

Favor time

 

Sum this up for me in a few sentences.

[skypinkblu]

I'm guessing if that 7.0 Purple had been Blue, the book would've never darkened CGC's door again ever. Surely players have a sense of when a playing piece is 'tapped out'.

 

But any wiggle room left at all, somebody will give it a go.

 

My point is, the "players" who play that way...not the occasional reslaber for some specific reason person...base their model on the fact that they DON'T think CGC is consistent..

 

So what kind of confidence did they have to begin with? They were confident that they would not be consistent? If you are not perfectly consistent with grading, how can you be expected to be perfectly consistent detecting restoration?

 

A good friend of mine says he will buy CGC books when he finds them...(he bids on eBay) because he's sure that the page count is correct.

 

He's confident.

 

Anyway, I think we got a pretty good answer. They messed up. There is no other answer. Maybe this time it was a bigger than slightly mess up, it's bound to happen...just a lost gamble.

 

I'm going to look forward to next Friday's thread;)

[mar-vell]

 

 

I wonder what the percentage is of forum members who crack DO NOT PRESS and reslab?

 

 

 

Well I do that sort of. But its out of eccentricity I guess not to turn a profit.Although I love profits I am very much a collector. I bought a large percentage of my books slabbed because the product was simply higher quality than raw and cracked almost every one and put them in my collection.

 

When i resell the big dollar books i simply have to recert in order to reach top market value. I went through this recently with my copy of AF15. I bought it 9 years ago as a CGC 5.5 and cracked it open and put it in my collection. I read it about once a year over that time period. The value of the book rose so much recently that i felt i just had to move it as I am looking to buy some property this year.

 

I sent it back to CGC and was a bit nervous even though I was confident the book was in the exact same condition as it was when i cracked it. I countered this by sending the old blue label in with the book waving a flag to CGC saying "I hope this doesn't come back a 5.0!" which made me feel a little better about it. Even still i knew it could regrade under 5.5 and felt there was a slight shot it could come back a 6.0 as well. The end result was it came back universal 5.5 and i sold it in a week for a very nice profit. So by cracking it open i paid $460 dollars to enjoy reading the book for 9 years when i felt like it but there was the risk it could cost me more. I would imagine I am not the only collector who does this but I think I am in the minority.

 

My Wonder Woman 1 had the pages reversed (it was restored). Someone had restored it and put them back in reverse order. I bought it that way on eBay.

 

It was driving me nuts (even though it was slabbed) So... I had the pages put back in the right place. It came back a full grade lower, . That was at least 7 or 8 years ago. It was also pressed when the pages were fixed, I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

 

I would send the label back if I did that again, too...but people who are hoping to make money on this, probably don't want to waive flags at the people grading...besides, I understand the graders don't see the old labels.

 

Wow! Really? At one time IIRC you got a $5 discount for returning the label although i didn't see that reflected in my bill this time out and i assumed it was a valuable tool to be able to evaluate the book against their original opinion of which I thought they kept permanent scans. so I guess it just allows them to update the census. Sad to hear that.

[mar-vell]

Favor time

 

Sum this up for me in a few sentences.

 

Spider - Dan got screwed on a resub that came back restored but also came back blue again on a third try from a person he sold it to. Sborock is still a hippy and a nice guy. CGC is working on some form of reimbursement with Dan. The rest is mostly just conversation.

[kav]

CGC regraded a blue label JIM 83 6.0 as a purple 7.0. dude sold it. Buyer resubbed getting a blue 6.0. Seller said wtf-CGC had everyone in the place look at it and said no its purple. It is currently considered purple and CGC wants to buy from buyer and take it out of the picture. (what about all the other-SHUT UP). Lotta bickering about can they or can't they detect microtrimming and maybe it should be considered like pressing. One statement from CGC: 'we screwed up. It happens'.

[canickus]

CGC regraded a blue label JIM 83 6.0 as a purple 7.0. dude sold it. Buyer resubbed getting a blue 6.0. Seller said wtf-CGC had everyone in the place look at it and said no its purple. It is currently considered purple and CGC wants to buy from buyer and take it out of the picture. (what about all the other-SHUT UP). Lotta bickering about can they or can't they detect microtrimming and maybe it should be considered like pressing. One statement from CGC: 'we screwed up. It happens'.

 

excellent summary

[CBT]

there is more at play here whether CGC screwed up or is consistent.

 

No one expects them to not mistakes.

 

What do they do when they happen, and how do they amend them?

 

How many times were mistakes made on this book?

 

Is it actually trimmed or not?

 

Did he get fed a "story" on the phone by CGC?

 

that's where the discussion needs to be focused. I am sure Dan himself would agree that CGC mistakes or consistency isnt the issue here.

 

Can they detect resto reliably?

 

Did he get lied to?

 

etc

[Lost]

Restoration can't be detected reliably. Accept it and move along. Nothing to see here....

[234wallst]

I only read about 20-22 pages into the thread and lots of questions on motive of sending in a PLOD 7.0 for re-grade. I don't see how this is any more silly than sending in a 6.0 universal for re-grade with the prominent spine crease; how could you expect that to score any higher than a 6.0 with that present? If it was never resubmitted....

 

I realize that's not the point of this thread, and it's about CGC's inconsistency. As stated many times already they only offer a professional opinion. If you should them the same book 100 times mixed in with hundreds of other books so they don't remember the same book, guess what, the result will not be the same 100 times. This is likely to be true if any of us individually went through the same process.

 

One thing we don't know is was the book "modified" after being in the PLOD 7 and before being resubmitted, from a detectable trim to a non for example.

 

[sborock]

Restoration can't be detected reliably. Accept it and move along. Nothing to see here....

 

Most restoration can be detected reliably by people who have studied restoration. Reliably does not mean 100% as there is a human factor involved.

 

I can sometimes tell if a book is restored from 4 feet away. Sometimes I need a loop to confirm what I think might have been done to a book. Once in awhile I miss something.

 

If you are looking for perfection, then, yes, move along. The only place it exists is Fantasy Land.

 

Many collectors learn from reading the boards, so there is always something to see here......

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Restoration can't be detected reliably. Accept it and move along. Nothing to see here....

 

Most restoration can be detected reliably by people who have studied restoration. Reliably does not mean 100% as there is a human factor involved.

 

I can sometimes tell if a book is restored from 4 feet away. Sometimes I need a loop to confirm what I think might have been done to a book. Once in awhile I miss something.

 

If you are looking for perfection, then, yes, move along. The only place it exists is Fantasy Land.

 

Many collectors learn from reading the boards, so there is always something to see here......

 

CGC lost a serious asset when you left.

[DR.X]

CGC lost a serious asset when you left.

 

But he's still lurking in the shadows. Hope to see you later this year in Chicago Steve.

[comicsrlife-migration]

I think the bigger problem is saying a book is restored and in reality it is not. If that is the case.

[Lost]

Restoration can't be detected reliably. Accept it and move along. Nothing to see here....

 

Most restoration can be detected reliably by people who have studied restoration. Reliably does not mean 100% as there is a human factor involved.

 

I can sometimes tell if a book is restored from 4 feet away. Sometimes I need a loop to confirm what I think might have been done to a book. Once in awhile I miss something.

 

If you are looking for perfection, then, yes, move along. The only place it exists is Fantasy Land.

 

Many collectors learn from reading the boards, so there is always something to see here......

 

my tongue was firmly in cheek for the number of people who apparently can't accept missed restoration and human error in this thread and thus get off the cgc criticism and move on from this thread ...not the boards

[Bomber-Bob]

 

Someone buys a book that was graded, EXPECTING it to grade higher...expecting the SAME company to grade it higher. He said he thought it would be a 6.5.

There is a risk factor there, Dan has said that...sometimes he "wins" sometimes he loses...but isn't his whole business model based on the fact that he does NOT expect CGC to be consistent?

If he kept the book slabbed as a 6.0, he wouldn't have lost a thing.

The book could have come back a 5.5, would he have been damaged then?

When something is slightly inconsistent, it doesn't always mean it's going to be a higher grade.

Risk/Reward...it's a gambling term.

People who actually buy things based on the expected inconsistencies in grading are gambling.

I'm sure it's a small percentage, but there are people who scour slabs for the gamble. You don't always win when you gamble...this time it was just a little odder than the normal risks because of the color label change.

There are always going to be inconsistencies where humans are involved.

More risk for the potential reward.

[/color]

 

Sharon speaks the truth here. The resub game exists soley because of CGC's propensity for inconsistency. The game isn't necessarily rigged when it goes against you. It's just gambling, period.

If you want a more regulated playing field try stocks, more specifically stock options. You don't need a big bankroll to play options. I'd rather make my money there and spend it on comics.

Edited April 7, 2014 by bomber-bob

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have noticed that anyone who has anything to do with the money that CGC brings in posts in noncomittal ways and is vague.

.

 

That's not entirely true.

 

I have something to do with the money that CGC brings in, having a good chunk of my income from slabbed books, and I have posted very committed and very specific posts.

 

I don't want CGC to fail. I want them to get better. Right now, they lack the incentive to do that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Restoration can't be detected reliably. Accept it and move along. Nothing to see here....

 

Most restoration can be detected reliably by people who have studied restoration. Reliably does not mean 100% as there is a human factor involved.

 

I can sometimes tell if a book is restored from 4 feet away. Sometimes I need a loop to confirm what I think might have been done to a book. Once in awhile I miss something.

 

If you are looking for perfection, then, yes, move along. The only place it exists is Fantasy Land.

 

Many collectors learn from reading the boards, so there is always something to see here......

 

my tongue was firmly in cheek for the number of people who apparently can't accept missed restoration and human error in this thread and thus get off the cgc criticism and move on from this thread ...not the boards

 

You're missing the point. As has been noted before, many people, especially those who put down large sums of money for comics, have educated themselves in restoration and grading. The problem comes when a potential buyer cannot examine a book for themselves, using their own education (whatever level it may be) to decide if the book is restored or not.

 

In that regard, CGC (and any other grading company worth anything; currently none) HAS to be near-perfect in detecting it, because by encasing it, they've (mostly) removed the ability for the buyer to investigate on his own.

 

It's not about making mistakes. No one that I have seen has ever said "CGC must be perfect, always, period." It's about how you go about fixing those mistakes. And if CGC makes such a mistake, they must be prepared to rigorously confront it and resolve it to the satisfaction of all parties involved, precisely because every buyer must (nearly always) accept CGC's word that a book isn't or is restored. There are literally millions (if not billions) of dollars resting on that reputation.

 

It is, after all, why they've been paid to do what they do for the last 15 years. For all the thousands upon thousands of books that people have paid them to grade, part of that is "mistake insurance."

 

It is the way that CGC addresses these situations that is being criticized, not that the situations exist.