Most significant X-Men

[slym2none]

Mutants aren't real, not as posed in the comics' world.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[kav]

Mutants aren't real, not as posed in the comics' world.

 

 

 

 

-slym

Of course mutants are real. How else would an ape become a human? Why do some people have 3 kidneys?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Another vote for Wolverine. Food for thought. The X-men comic was a dying series. Sales were so bad that the only way it could turn a profit was to reprint it until they revitalized it with GSXM1 and then X-men 94. So here's my question: We all know that GSXM1 was actually the 2nd appearance of Wolverine. His 1st appearance was in the Incredible Hulk. My question is...did the Marvel staff look at the sales figures for issue #181 and then say, "Hey...sales were good...maybe we should put a bunch of these guys into the X-men to replace the old team". I mean, is it possible that Wolverine was the spark that lead to the revamp of the X-men?

 

I don't know where to begin...

 

X-Men was not really a "dying series." The fact that it was still reprinted, rather than simply cancelled (which it actually was, in 1970), means that it was selling at an acceptable level. Marvel was never shy about cancelling books that fell below the acceptable sales threshold. Silver Surfer was cancelled, Sub-Mariner was cancelled, Astonishing Tales was cancelled, several of the reprint titles didn't last. X-Men, itself, was cancelled.

 

Were the X-Men lingering in limbo, waiting for someone to think of something to do with them? Absolutely. But it wasn't dead, and it wasn't even dying anymore. After all...back in the early 70's, comic specialty stores were not on every street corner, and back issues were difficult to come by...so those who hadn't read the originals 10 years earlier could do so now...it was, after all, new to them.

 

So, dying? No. It had already died, and was resurrected in reprint land.

 

So Len Wein, Chris Claremont, and Roy Thomas come up with a new idea for the characters...and Giant Size #1 comes out. Then, Claremont takes over the writing with the "All NEW, All DIFFERENT" #94.

 

It took a few years for the series to take off. In fact, in the 1978 OPG, GS #1 was only $1.80, and #94 was 60 cents....same as the reprints. The series was bi-monthly...a fate reserved for low selling books...until issue #112, a full 3 years after issue #94.

 

1978 was the breakout year for the new X-Men.

 

But back to Giant Size #1...Wein could do pretty much whatever he wanted, since the title was in bi-monthly reprint limbo. So, he did. The only non-original new character he brought in was Wolverine, who had been introduced six months earlier, in the Incredible Hulk, which happened to have been written by...Len Wein!

 

Wein liked the character, and added him to the team.

 

Claremont and Cockrum did NOT like Wolvie, and came *this* close to dropping him. As mentioned before, Byrne saved Wolvie, since Byrne, a Canadian, had an infinity for the little runt, being a fellow Canucklehead.

 

And...fans had been asking for, and talking about, the X-Men's revival before Hulk #180-181 (as evidenced by Doug Stewart's letter in #184, and Marvel's response), which Marvel had been hinting about for a while.

 

So, most definitely, NO, it was NOT the intro of Wolvie that sparked the revamp of the X-Men.

 

Sorry, but how can you be so sure?

 

The explanation was already posted, but I'll post it again: there were plans afoot to bring "back" the X-Men BEFORE Wolverine was introduced in Hulk #181, as evidenced by the letter and response in Hulk #184, and other mentions in the Marvel U prior.

 

You say that Wolverine was introduced 6 months before GSXM1. Don't you think that was enough time for Marvel to analyze sales receipts, read a bunch of letters, and then conclude that Wolverine needed to reappear somewhere else in the Marvel universe...either by himself, or with a team? You don't think someone said:

 

"Hey Len, we were reading the fan mail and we noticed a lot of good feedback on your Wolverine character. We were trying to think of something to do with the X-men...we were planning a Giant Size issue anyway...wanna do a one-shot with a new team and see how that goes? Throw that new Wolverine character into the mix".

 

What I was challenging was your speculation that Wolverine was the impetus (the "spark") for bringing back the old, and introducing the new, X-Men. What you are saying here is different than what you said above. Obviously, Wolverine was part of the new team. He wasn't, however, the reason behind it.

 

And I am fairly certain that "Marvel" (that would be Roy Thomas, as EIC at the time) didn't approach Len with the idea...I'm fairly certain it was Len and Claremont who approached Roy.

 

And Giant Size X-Men #1 was never intended to be a "one-shot." It was to introduce the new team; again...plans to bring back the X-Men included the regular title. GS X-Men #1 was not a "test" issue.

 

As stated, Len created both Wolverine (along with Trimpe) and the other new X-Men (with Claremont and Cockrum), and included him. Claremont and Cockrum didn't like Wolverine; it was Byrne who rescued him.

 

Sounds like Wein created the characters and worked out the general direction of the series before Claremont took over.

 

That is mostly true. Len did a lot of the initial creative work on the new X-Men, for which he is, as Claremont points out, neglected. Claremont didn't really "take over"; he was part of the wprk from the beginning...Len did the initial scripting duties, then phased out as Claremont took full control.

 

Len didn't work out the general direction of the series, but he did give it its start.

 

 

[miraclemet]

Wolverine's success is in large part because he fulfills the violent fantasies of fan-boys with his kick hey bub attitude. It wears thin in my book pretty fast.

 

You liking the character or not doesn't really change the fact that among most people in and outside of comics, he's viewed as one of the top 4 or 5 characters in all of comics.

 

That would be a bit like saying because I don't like the Toyota Camry it's not one of the most popular cars in the world.

 

but would anyone say the Camry is a "significant" car? (and I used to work for toyota!)

 

I dont think so.

 

Prius, sure for making hybrid affordable and mainstream

 

Mustang for creating a musclecar for the masses

 

Tesla... and so on...

 

popularity does not equal significance, or at least one could argue it doesnt.

[kav]

Wolverine's success is in large part because he fulfills the violent fantasies of fan-boys with his kick hey bub attitude. It wears thin in my book pretty fast.

 

You liking the character or not doesn't really change the fact that among most people in and outside of comics, he's viewed as one of the top 4 or 5 characters in all of comics.

 

That would be a bit like saying because I don't like the Toyota Camry it's not one of the most popular cars in the world.

 

but would anyone say the Camry is a "significant" car? (and I used to work for toyota!)

 

I dont think so.

 

Prius, sure for making hybrid affordable and mainstream

 

Mustang for creating a musclecar for the masses

 

Tesla... and so on...

 

popularity does not equal significance, or at least one could argue it doesnt.

If a Camry was once owned by Jon Voight it would be significant.

[slym2none]

Mutants aren't real, not as posed in the comics' world.

 

Of course mutants are real. How else would an ape become a human? Why do some people have 3 kidneys?

 

I know you saw the emboldened part above...

 

 

 

 

-slym

[kav]

Mutants aren't real, not as posed in the comics' world.

 

Of course mutants are real. How else would an ape become a human? Why do some people have 3 kidneys?

 

I know you saw the emboldened part above...

 

 

 

 

-slym

Sharpton's mind control powers are as staggering as any mutant posed in comics. He can get crowds to kill for him, incite violent outrage over a woman who smears feces on herself, the list goes on and on.

He's at least as powerful as Magneto.

[slym2none]

Charisma is not a mutant power.

 

 

 

-slym

[kav]

Charisma is not a mutant power.

 

 

 

-slym

How do you know it's charisma and not something more....sinister?

[slym2none]

How do you know it is a mutant power?

 

HAH!

 

 

 

 

-slym

[kav]

How do you know it is a mutant power?

 

HAH!

 

 

 

 

-slym

I'm pretty sure he's a mutant.

My foil hat protects me though.

[slym2none]

I am just as certain that he, or any other human, is not a mutant by Marvel Comics Group's definition.

 

 

 

-slym

[kav]

I am just as certain that he, or any other human, is a mutant by Marvel Comics Group's definition.

 

 

 

-slym

I'm not a stinkin Mutie.

[slym2none]

I missed a whole word there, pardons...

 

Edited.

 

 

 

-slym

[kav]

I missed a whole word there, pardons...

 

Edited.

 

 

 

-slym

Not your fault. Sharpton did it to you.

Get foil hat.

[slym2none]

Or, or... I just made a mistake. The best of people make a good dozen or so mistakes, every day.

 

Get over it, Bub.

 

 

 

-slym

[Darkowl]

He was never in the X-Men.

 

 

 

-slym

You just said 'any mutant'.

 

[Westy Steve]

Another vote for Wolverine. Food for thought. The X-men comic was a dying series. Sales were so bad that the only way it could turn a profit was to reprint it until they revitalized it with GSXM1 and then X-men 94. So here's my question: We all know that GSXM1 was actually the 2nd appearance of Wolverine. His 1st appearance was in the Incredible Hulk. My question is...did the Marvel staff look at the sales figures for issue #181 and then say, "Hey...sales were good...maybe we should put a bunch of these guys into the X-men to replace the old team". I mean, is it possible that Wolverine was the spark that lead to the revamp of the X-men?

 

I don't know where to begin...

 

X-Men was not really a "dying series." The fact that it was still reprinted, rather than simply cancelled (which it actually was, in 1970), means that it was selling at an acceptable level. Marvel was never shy about cancelling books that fell below the acceptable sales threshold. Silver Surfer was cancelled, Sub-Mariner was cancelled, Astonishing Tales was cancelled, several of the reprint titles didn't last. X-Men, itself, was cancelled.

 

Were the X-Men lingering in limbo, waiting for someone to think of something to do with them? Absolutely. But it wasn't dead, and it wasn't even dying anymore. After all...back in the early 70's, comic specialty stores were not on every street corner, and back issues were difficult to come by...so those who hadn't read the originals 10 years earlier could do so now...it was, after all, new to them.

 

So, dying? No. It had already died, and was resurrected in reprint land.

 

So Len Wein, Chris Claremont, and Roy Thomas come up with a new idea for the characters...and Giant Size #1 comes out. Then, Claremont takes over the writing with the "All NEW, All DIFFERENT" #94.

 

It took a few years for the series to take off. In fact, in the 1978 OPG, GS #1 was only $1.80, and #94 was 60 cents....same as the reprints. The series was bi-monthly...a fate reserved for low selling books...until issue #112, a full 3 years after issue #94.

 

1978 was the breakout year for the new X-Men.

 

But back to Giant Size #1...Wein could do pretty much whatever he wanted, since the title was in bi-monthly reprint limbo. So, he did. The only non-original new character he brought in was Wolverine, who had been introduced six months earlier, in the Incredible Hulk, which happened to have been written by...Len Wein!

 

Wein liked the character, and added him to the team.

 

Claremont and Cockrum did NOT like Wolvie, and came *this* close to dropping him. As mentioned before, Byrne saved Wolvie, since Byrne, a Canadian, had an infinity for the little runt, being a fellow Canucklehead.

 

And...fans had been asking for, and talking about, the X-Men's revival before Hulk #180-181 (as evidenced by Doug Stewart's letter in #184, and Marvel's response), which Marvel had been hinting about for a while.

 

So, most definitely, NO, it was NOT the intro of Wolvie that sparked the revamp of the X-Men.

 

Sorry, but how can you be so sure?

 

The explanation was already posted, but I'll post it again: there were plans afoot to bring "back" the X-Men BEFORE Wolverine was introduced in Hulk #181, as evidenced by the letter and response in Hulk #184, and other mentions in the Marvel U prior.

 

You say that Wolverine was introduced 6 months before GSXM1. Don't you think that was enough time for Marvel to analyze sales receipts, read a bunch of letters, and then conclude that Wolverine needed to reappear somewhere else in the Marvel universe...either by himself, or with a team? You don't think someone said:

 

"Hey Len, we were reading the fan mail and we noticed a lot of good feedback on your Wolverine character. We were trying to think of something to do with the X-men...we were planning a Giant Size issue anyway...wanna do a one-shot with a new team and see how that goes? Throw that new Wolverine character into the mix".

 

What I was challenging was your speculation that Wolverine was the impetus (the "spark") for bringing back the old, and introducing the new, X-Men. What you are saying here is different than what you said above. Obviously, Wolverine was part of the new team. He wasn't, however, the reason behind it.

 

And I am fairly certain that "Marvel" (that would be Roy Thomas, as EIC at the time) didn't approach Len with the idea...I'm fairly certain it was Len and Claremont who approached Roy.

 

And Giant Size X-Men #1 was never intended to be a "one-shot." It was to introduce the new team; again...plans to bring back the X-Men included the regular title. GS X-Men #1 was not a "test" issue.

 

As stated, Len created both Wolverine (along with Trimpe) and the other new X-Men (with Claremont and Cockrum), and included him. Claremont and Cockrum didn't like Wolverine; it was Byrne who rescued him.

 

Sounds like Wein created the characters and worked out the general direction of the series before Claremont took over.

 

That is mostly true. Len did a lot of the initial creative work on the new X-Men, for which he is, as Claremont points out, neglected. Claremont didn't really "take over"; he was part of the wprk from the beginning...Len did the initial scripting duties, then phased out as Claremont took full control.

 

Len didn't work out the general direction of the series, but he did give it its start.

 

 

Fair enough. And I am challenging your (or perhaps was challenging) your statement of fact that Wolverine wasn't the "spark". I always thought so based on the chronology of events. But I don't know what was in Hulk 184. What was said there? Please share. Hulk 184 was still after Wolverine's first appearance, so I'm curious about the context of what was said (in 184) and how much embellishment there was. I'd like to know if there are any hints about the "new" X-men that actually pre-dates Wolverine's first appearance.

 

I need to re-read Hulk 181 again and see if there is any discussion of Wolverine being a mutant in that issue. I don't know if that would prove anything one way or the other, but it would be good info. The rest is just conjecture.

[Darkowl]

Mutants aren't real, not as posed in the comics' world.

 

 

 

 

-slym

Of course mutants are real. How else would an ape become a human? Why do some people have 3 kidneys?

 

Though mutations can occur in a species, apes never became humans.

 

Through mutation, and natural selection, humans evolved from a "common ancestor", not an ape. The scientific community perceives this as fact, but I perceive it as outdated rubbish.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Claremont almost wrote Wolverine out of the X-Men. Byrne saved him.

 

It wasn't until Byrne came on board that the character started to develop a personality.

 

He wasn't the big draw until the late 80's.

 

As someone who got into comics in 1983 because of Wolverine, I can tell you that he was a big draw way before the late '80s. He was such a big draw that he was the first Marvel character to get his own solo mini-series in 1982. And, although it sucked and nobody cares about it today, the Kitty Pryde and Wolverine mini-series of 1984-85 was another huge deal involving the character. But, but this time, he was already *the* established fan favorite and had numerous storylines where he either featured prominently (e.g., Days of Future Past, the Brood saga) or the story revolved around him (Wolverine in Japan). Any conversation you had about the X-Men back in the early-to-mid 1980s inevitably came back to Wolverine - that's something you had to have lived through.

 

It may be hard to remember a time these days when Wolverine wasn't overexposed, but, in the early-to-mid '80s, fans could not get enough of him, which eventually led to a solo series in 1988 and countless cross-overs, mini-series, spin-offs, re-boots, etc. soon after.

 

Couple of counterpoints:

 

The Wolverine mini was much more about Miller than it was about Wolverine, and it ties with Hercules #1-4 as the first solo Marvel mini.

 

Storm, Colossus (especially with Kitty, who was also a huge fan favorite in the early to mid-80's...hence the Kitty & Wolvie mini...which people tend to forget), and then Rogue, were all featured as prominently as Wolverine in the X-Men UNTIL about issue #200 (1985)...then it all, admittedly, became about Wolvie.

 

As an example: Considering the issues of X-Men between GS #1 and #200, Wolverine only appears on the cover 53 times, and is the focus of the cover only 9 times (133, 141, 142, 162, 173, 174, 177, 195, 196.) In other words, he appears on the cover only 49% of the time, and is featured only 8% of the time.

 

By contrast...

 

Storm appears on 71 covers, and is the focus a whopping 16 times. That's 65% of the time on the cover, and featured 14%.

 

Kitty doesn't appear on a lot of covers, but she does have 11 featured covers from #129-200, a amazing 15%, almost double Wolvie's percentage.

 

Rogue, from the time she joined the team in #171, appears on 13 of the 30 covers to #200, and is featured 6 times (granted, it's a small sample.)

 

Was Wolvie *the* fan favorite X-Man in the early to mid 80's...?

 

Hard to say, especially when you put it up against Hercules as the first solo minis. Beast got a mini, Nightcrawler got a mini, Magik got a mini...it was the in thing in the mid-80's.

 

And even though Wolvie was prominently featured on both the covers of Days of Future Past, the star of the story was Kitty. I don't know if you can make a good claim for "featured prominently"...he plays a part, but it's just as important as Storm's.

 

Kitty was immensely popular in her time, Dazzler was briefly the hottest thing since sliced bread, and Rogue after them was also very, very popular in that era.

 

Even Nightcrawler got some of the love...Wolvie's first solo non-X appearance was in What If #31, from 1981, while Nightcrawler's first non-X appearance was all the way back in Spidey #161-162, from 1976!

 

(By the way...I always wondered why Spidey #161 didn't get much love as a very early Wolvie appearance, albeit a cameo.)

 

I think it's safe to say that Wolverine was NOT *THE* big draw for the X-Men until the late 80's (generally, 1986 and beyond), and that it was fairly equally spread up until then.