Most significant X-Men

[Darkowl]

Claremont almost wrote Wolverine out of the X-Men. Byrne saved him.

 

It wasn't until Byrne came on board that the character started to develop a personality.

 

He wasn't the big draw until the late 80's.

 

As someone who got into comics in 1983 because of Wolverine, I can tell you that he was a big draw way before the late '80s. He was such a big draw that he was the first Marvel character to get his own solo mini-series in 1982. And, although it sucked and nobody cares about it today, the Kitty Pryde and Wolverine mini-series of 1984-85 was another huge deal involving the character. But, but this time, he was already *the* established fan favorite and had numerous storylines where he either featured prominently (e.g., Days of Future Past, the Brood saga) or the story revolved around him (Wolverine in Japan). Any conversation you had about the X-Men back in the early-to-mid 1980s inevitably came back to Wolverine - that's something you had to have lived through.

 

It may be hard to remember a time these days when Wolverine wasn't overexposed, but, in the early-to-mid '80s, fans could not get enough of him, which eventually led to a solo series in 1988 and countless cross-overs, mini-series, spin-offs, re-boots, etc. soon after.

 

Couple of counterpoints:

 

The Wolverine mini was much more about Miller than it was about Wolverine, and it ties with Hercules #1-4 as the first solo Marvel mini.

 

Storm, Colossus (especially with Kitty, who was also a huge fan favorite in the early to mid-80's...hence the Kitty & Wolvie mini...which people tend to forget), and then Rogue, were all featured as prominently as Wolverine in the X-Men UNTIL about issue #200 (1985)...then it all, admittedly, became about Wolvie.

 

As an example: Considering the issues of X-Men between GS #1 and #200, Wolverine only appears on the cover 53 times, and is the focus of the cover only 9 times (133, 141, 142, 162, 173, 174, 177, 195, 196.) In other words, he appears on the cover only 49% of the time, and is featured only 8% of the time.

 

By contrast...

 

Storm appears on 71 covers, and is the focus a whopping 16 times. That's 65% of the time on the cover, and featured 14%.

 

Kitty doesn't appear on a lot of covers, but she does have 11 featured covers from #129-200, a amazing 15%, almost double Wolvie's percentage.

 

Rogue, from the time she joined the team in #171, appears on 13 of the 30 covers to #200, and is featured 6 times (granted, it's a small sample.)

 

Was Wolvie *the* fan favorite X-Man in the early to mid 80's...?

 

Hard to say, especially when you put it up against Hercules as the first solo minis. Beast got a mini, Nightcrawler got a mini, Magik got a mini...it was the in thing in the mid-80's.

 

And even though Wolvie was prominently featured on both the covers of Days of Future Past, the star of the story was Kitty. I don't know if you can make a good claim for "featured prominently"...he plays a part, but it's just as important as Storm's.

 

Kitty was immensely popular in her time, Dazzler was briefly the hottest thing since sliced bread, and Rogue after them was also very, very popular in that era.

 

Even Nightcrawler got some of the love...Wolvie's first solo non-X appearance was in What If #31, from 1981, while Nightcrawler's first non-X appearance was all the way back in Spidey #161-162, from 1976!

 

(By the way...I always wondered why Spidey #161 didn't get much love as a very early Wolvie appearance, albeit a cameo.)

 

I think it's safe to say that Wolverine was NOT *THE* big draw for the X-Men until the late 80's (generally, 1986 and beyond), and that it was fairly equally spread up until then.

 

Despite our differences in the past, I gotta hand it to you for coming up with these numbers. Where are you getting this info from? A website? Memory? Did you count every single issue that has Wolverine on it?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

popularity does not equal significance, or at least one could argue it doesnt.

 

Exactly!

[Dr. Balls]

I think it's safe to say that Wolverine was NOT *THE* big draw for the X-Men until the late 80's (generally, 1986 and beyond), and that it was fairly equally spread up until then.

 

Nice points, RMA. I like the percentage comparisons, too - and I think that is a solid representation of popularity.

 

The only thing I wanted to chime in was some personal recollections from back in the day:

 

In 1983/1984 when I changed from a little kid reading comics to a kid collecting comics - Wolverine was just starting to really get mainstream popular, as in: being the talk of the comic shops, having to pay over cover price for the limited series, popularity with all my other friends, etc.

 

At that time, the whole DD/Punisher/Wolverine/Moon Knight/Maste of Kung Fu anti-hero thing was going pretty strong, and the Kitty Pryde/Wolverine mini was very popular when it came out around that time, too. I can't really speak of sales, but I do recall that everyone in my core group of 11-13 year old friends pretty much were into Wolverine and I ended up being an X-Men fan due to his character - because at that point, I only read solo character books.

 

I think Wolverine is the most significant X-Man because I think he brought the most readers to the title over all the years (cumulatively throughout the 80s-90s) - and I agree with RMA, that really didn't happen until the 80s (although I think it happened as early as 1984).

 

 

[KPR Comics]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

[Darkowl]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

[jaeldubyoo]

As I stated before, John Byrne, more than anybody else, was the driving force behind the sudden surge in popularity for the New X-Men. While X-Men was gaining popularity up until Byrne came aboard, it was Byrne that pushed over the top. Just a few issues after he started penciling X-Men, the back issues started to shoot up. Every issue started to double in price after a month on the shelves. Shops were limiting the number of issues you could buy. That was when the buzz about the new X-Men got louder. People couldn’t wait for the next X-Men to hit the shelves. That’s when I started to buy multiple issues.

 

It took a while for Wolverine to catch on as a fan favorite. If you check the Overstreets from that time period, Incredible Hulk 181 lagged far, far behind GSX 1 and X-Men 94 in value for years. While important, Wolverine did not emerge as an instant favorite from the beginning.

[Dr. Balls]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

X-Men #130 one of my most favorite covers.

[stanley1883]

So theres a few ways to answer this for me.

 

Most significant with regards to recognition is Wolverine, hard to argue that IMHO.

 

Most significant TO the X-Men has to be Professor X as he started them but an argument does exist for Cyclops.

 

Theres also Cyclops as the most significant in MODERN times

 

Also Magneto while not technically an X-Man is very very significant to the entire team. He's a reoccuring influence for the X-Men to band together, as well as have tremendous effect on them one way or another.

 

So an argument can made for about 3 or 4 characters. Wolverine, Cyclops. Professor X, and Magneto unless he's disqualified by the technicality.

[Dr. Balls]

Cyclops can suck it.

[KPR Comics]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

X-Men #130 one of my most favorite covers.

Yeah, but then you read it and you're like WTF?

[slym2none]

Cyclops can suck it.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Dr. Balls]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

X-Men #130 one of my most favorite covers.

Yeah, but then you read it and you're like WTF?

 

Yeah - but it was years later when I read it, I took it with a grain of salt. That was before my time as a reader. However, Claremont's writing for Dazzler in the 210s-220s was actually pretty good, I learned to think she was kinda okay in those issues.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Another vote for Wolverine. Food for thought. The X-men comic was a dying series. Sales were so bad that the only way it could turn a profit was to reprint it until they revitalized it with GSXM1 and then X-men 94. So here's my question: We all know that GSXM1 was actually the 2nd appearance of Wolverine. His 1st appearance was in the Incredible Hulk. My question is...did the Marvel staff look at the sales figures for issue #181 and then say, "Hey...sales were good...maybe we should put a bunch of these guys into the X-men to replace the old team". I mean, is it possible that Wolverine was the spark that lead to the revamp of the X-men?

 

I don't know where to begin...

 

X-Men was not really a "dying series." The fact that it was still reprinted, rather than simply cancelled (which it actually was, in 1970), means that it was selling at an acceptable level. Marvel was never shy about cancelling books that fell below the acceptable sales threshold. Silver Surfer was cancelled, Sub-Mariner was cancelled, Astonishing Tales was cancelled, several of the reprint titles didn't last. X-Men, itself, was cancelled.

 

Were the X-Men lingering in limbo, waiting for someone to think of something to do with them? Absolutely. But it wasn't dead, and it wasn't even dying anymore. After all...back in the early 70's, comic specialty stores were not on every street corner, and back issues were difficult to come by...so those who hadn't read the originals 10 years earlier could do so now...it was, after all, new to them.

 

So, dying? No. It had already died, and was resurrected in reprint land.

 

So Len Wein, Chris Claremont, and Roy Thomas come up with a new idea for the characters...and Giant Size #1 comes out. Then, Claremont takes over the writing with the "All NEW, All DIFFERENT" #94.

 

It took a few years for the series to take off. In fact, in the 1978 OPG, GS #1 was only $1.80, and #94 was 60 cents....same as the reprints. The series was bi-monthly...a fate reserved for low selling books...until issue #112, a full 3 years after issue #94.

 

1978 was the breakout year for the new X-Men.

 

But back to Giant Size #1...Wein could do pretty much whatever he wanted, since the title was in bi-monthly reprint limbo. So, he did. The only non-original new character he brought in was Wolverine, who had been introduced six months earlier, in the Incredible Hulk, which happened to have been written by...Len Wein!

 

Wein liked the character, and added him to the team.

 

Claremont and Cockrum did NOT like Wolvie, and came *this* close to dropping him. As mentioned before, Byrne saved Wolvie, since Byrne, a Canadian, had an infinity for the little runt, being a fellow Canucklehead.

 

And...fans had been asking for, and talking about, the X-Men's revival before Hulk #180-181 (as evidenced by Doug Stewart's letter in #184, and Marvel's response), which Marvel had been hinting about for a while.

 

So, most definitely, NO, it was NOT the intro of Wolvie that sparked the revamp of the X-Men.

 

Sorry, but how can you be so sure?

 

The explanation was already posted, but I'll post it again: there were plans afoot to bring "back" the X-Men BEFORE Wolverine was introduced in Hulk #181, as evidenced by the letter and response in Hulk #184, and other mentions in the Marvel U prior.

 

You say that Wolverine was introduced 6 months before GSXM1. Don't you think that was enough time for Marvel to analyze sales receipts, read a bunch of letters, and then conclude that Wolverine needed to reappear somewhere else in the Marvel universe...either by himself, or with a team? You don't think someone said:

 

"Hey Len, we were reading the fan mail and we noticed a lot of good feedback on your Wolverine character. We were trying to think of something to do with the X-men...we were planning a Giant Size issue anyway...wanna do a one-shot with a new team and see how that goes? Throw that new Wolverine character into the mix".

 

What I was challenging was your speculation that Wolverine was the impetus (the "spark") for bringing back the old, and introducing the new, X-Men. What you are saying here is different than what you said above. Obviously, Wolverine was part of the new team. He wasn't, however, the reason behind it.

 

And I am fairly certain that "Marvel" (that would be Roy Thomas, as EIC at the time) didn't approach Len with the idea...I'm fairly certain it was Len and Claremont who approached Roy.

 

And Giant Size X-Men #1 was never intended to be a "one-shot." It was to introduce the new team; again...plans to bring back the X-Men included the regular title. GS X-Men #1 was not a "test" issue.

 

As stated, Len created both Wolverine (along with Trimpe) and the other new X-Men (with Claremont and Cockrum), and included him. Claremont and Cockrum didn't like Wolverine; it was Byrne who rescued him.

 

Sounds like Wein created the characters and worked out the general direction of the series before Claremont took over.

 

That is mostly true. Len did a lot of the initial creative work on the new X-Men, for which he is, as Claremont points out, neglected. Claremont didn't really "take over"; he was part of the wprk from the beginning...Len did the initial scripting duties, then phased out as Claremont took full control.

 

Len didn't work out the general direction of the series, but he did give it its start.

 

 

Fair enough. And I am challenging your (or perhaps was challenging) your statement of fact that Wolverine wasn't the "spark". I always thought so based on the chronology of events. But I don't know what was in Hulk 184. What was said there? Please share. Hulk 184 was still after Wolverine's first appearance, so I'm curious about the context of what was said (in 184) and how much embellishment there was. I'd like to know if there are any hints about the "new" X-men that actually pre-dates Wolverine's first appearance.

 

I need to re-read Hulk 181 again and see if there is any discussion of Wolverine being a mutant in that issue. I don't know if that would prove anything one way or the other, but it would be good info. The rest is just conjecture.

 

 

 

The letters printed in #184 would have been received within weeks after #181 was placed on sale. That means the writer (Doug Stewart) would be referring to information he had heard either prior to or concurrently with #181. Marvel's (probably Len's) response would also have been written within weeks after #181 came out, due to the time delay in the printing process. This would have been long before they would have gotten the sales returns for #181 (which wouldn't be finalized until #184 was already on the stands.)

 

As is noted, Doug Stewart says Wolvie would make a great *addition* to the new X-Men, which the editor's response coyly dodges, while speaking about the "imminent return" of the X-Men. Wolvie couldn't have been the reason for the return of the X-Men, BUT....if you notice (who would later become Eclipse Comics publisher) Dean Mullaney's letter, you'll see that Len was, in fact, part of discussions by Canadian fans asking for Canadian characters in Marvel's books, which either spurred Len on, or gave him the idea in the first place (prodded, no doubt, by a very young John Byrne.)

 

And, of course, at the same time, Len and Claremont were developing the new X-Men. It is quite possible that Len created Wolvie specifically for inclusion in the new X-Men, which, as has been noted before, had a decidedly international cast of characters from the start...and purposely so.

 

[stanley1883]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

I hate Jubilee. In my opinion, she was a cruel joke and is not a "real" member. More than likely just a "Make-a-wish" kid that the X-men tried to cheer up but she stuck around and no-one had the heart to tell her.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

As I stated before, John Byrne, more than anybody else, was the driving force behind the sudden surge in popularity for the New X-Men. While X-Men was gaining popularity up until Byrne came aboard, it was Byrne that pushed over the top. Just a few issues after he started penciling X-Men, the back issues started to shoot up. Every issue started to double in price after a month on the shelves. Shops were limiting the number of issues you could buy. That was when the buzz about the new X-Men got louder. People couldnt wait for the next X-Men to hit the shelves. Thats when I started to buy multiple issues.

 

John Byrne was a superstar. John Byrne was a superstar long before Todd McFarlane, Jim Lee, and Rob Liefeld. John Byrne was a phenom, and he shared the spotlight at that time with no one for at least a year or two (until Miller really got going.)

 

1978 was, indeed, the breakout year for the X-Men. By issue #112, the book had finally merited enough sales (no doubt spurred by #108 and #109) to bring it back to monthly.

 

I wonder about shops limiting the number of copies you could buy...there weren't that many shops before 1979.

 

It took a while for Wolverine to catch on as a fan favorite. If you check the Overstreets from that time period, Incredible Hulk 181 lagged far, far behind GSX 1 and X-Men 94 in value for years. While important, Wolverine did not emerge as an instant favorite from the beginning.

 

True indeed.

[Dr. Balls]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

I hate Jubilee. In my opinion, she was a cruel joke and is not a "real" member. More than likely just a "Make-a-wish" kid that the X-men tried to cheer up but she stuck around and no-one had the heart to tell her.

 

 

I liked Jubilee - but I also realize why so many others don't. I really disliked her powers, but I guess it fit her personality.

[Dr. Balls]

Cyclops can suck it.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

[Darkowl]

For me, personally, Dazzler is the most significant as it was her introduction that led me to stop purchasing that title.

 

I hate Jubilee. In my opinion, she was a cruel joke and is not a "real" member. More than likely just a "Make-a-wish" kid that the X-men tried to cheer up but she stuck around and no-one had the heart to tell her.

 

 

I actually like Jubilee quite a bit, but that is hilarious!

[Darkowl]

Cyclops can suck it.

 

Ive never met anyone who's fav X Men is Cyclops. They exist though, right?

[jaeldubyoo]

 

I wonder about shops limiting the number of copies you could buy...there weren't that many shops before 1979.

 

 

Comics and Comix. They had a five comic limit on X-Men because they were so hot. I remembering them holding back some issues and pricing them double the next month. I shopped at the Sacramento and San Jose locations. They also had one in Berkeley. I shopped at Bob Sidebottom's Comic Collector Shop also, but I don't recall him having any limits. But he had lot less new comics than Comics and Comix , which was right around the corner.