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1st Wolverine art @ $140K with 22 days to go!!
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Started by drdonaldblake,

519 posts in this topic

Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted

Honestly even if Jim said he couldn't carry his own title in 1986 Id say he was wrong at the time. I remember thinking the wolverine unlimited #1 was preposterously overdue when it came out

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
I remember thinking the wolverine unlimited #1 was preposterously overdue when it came out

 

Indubitably!

 

You know, it's actually a good thing they waited so long Anderson the character develop because that series and the whole 'Patch' thing was just dreadful. The character was definitely hot in spite of and not because of that series because that was some stinky fromage

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
I remember thinking the wolverine unlimited #1 was preposterously overdue when it came out

 

Indubitably!

 

You know, it's actually a good thing they waited so long Anderson the character develop because that series and the whole 'Patch' thing was just dreadful. The character was definitely hot in spite of and not because of that series because that was some stinky fromage

 

 

hm

 

...are you drunk?

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Unca Ben

Unca Ben

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Posted

I actually like some of Picasso's stuff and I know I could never replicate it. There is actually quite a bit of art that I like. But, like you, I like it because I like it. Not because I'm supposed to like it. And I still think the prices these pieces fetch are simply preposterous no matter how outstanding they are.

 

Agreed 100%.

I cannot believe the prices of some stuff nowadays, including that in our own hobby.

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Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
I remember thinking the wolverine unlimited #1 was preposterously overdue when it came out

 

Indubitably!

 

You know, it's actually a good thing they waited so long Anderson the character develop because that series and the whole 'Patch' thing was just dreadful. The character was definitely hot in spite of and not because of that series because that was some stinky fromage

 

 

hm

 

...are you drunk?

 

Autocorrect lol

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delekkerste

delekkerste

Posted
Posted
Excellent. I accept that you believe this.

 

And I disagree thoroughly with you, and think that not only did I make good, factual points, but that your points have been completely debunked by myself and others as well. Not only that, but I maintained my integrity by not misstating facts, changing parameters, misrepresenting what others said, and generally getting many details wrong, whether through negligence or outright falsehood (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), as you did not.

 

All done now? :wishluck:

 

I may be done arguing about Wolverine, but that doesn't give you free license to spread libelous accusations about me and misrepresent the character of the entire debate. I misstated exactly one fact, about when you were born, that was based on your comment that you hadn't even read Uncanny X-Men until much later than the people who actually were readers during the early and mid-'80s - an honest mistake and hardly consequential to proceedings. I didn't misrepresent what you said, as numerous people have agreed and :eyeroll: at your pedantic parsing of the English language. And I certainly never changed the parameters, while you and your sole ally in the debate attempted to do over and over and over again rather than simply admit that you made a mistake and that you were wrong.

 

Next time, just mannup and admit when you're wrong. I've done it countless times on the Boards; it's not going to kill you. (shrug)

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Excellent. I accept that you believe this.

 

And I disagree thoroughly with you, and think that not only did I make good, factual points, but that your points have been completely debunked by myself and others as well. Not only that, but I maintained my integrity by not misstating facts, changing parameters, misrepresenting what others said, and generally getting many details wrong, whether through negligence or outright falsehood (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), as you did not.

 

All done now? :wishluck:

 

I may be done arguing about Wolverine, but that doesn't give you free license to spread libelous accusations about me and misrepresent the character of the entire debate. I misstated exactly one fact, about when you were born, that was based on your comment that you hadn't even read Uncanny X-Men until much later than the people who actually were readers during the early and mid-'80s - an honest mistake and hardly consequential to proceedings. I didn't misrepresent what you said, as numerous people have agreed and :eyeroll: at your pedantic parsing of the English language. And I certainly never changed the parameters, while you and your sole ally in the debate attempted to do over and over and over again rather than simply admit that you made a mistake and that you were wrong.

 

Next time, just mannup and admit when you're wrong. I've done it countless times on the Boards; it's not going to kill you. (shrug)

 

You can't let it go, can you? You just cannot.

 

It's absolutely Bizarro, your posts. Everything you keep accusing me of is precisely what you are doing and have done. If I believed it would accomplish anything, I'd go over where you were wrong in great detail, but it won't, and I'll just look like I'm bullying you. You'll just continue to deny it all. You may even be completely oblivious to it until it's spelled out for you.

 

Take the advice of your friends: drop it.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
I remember thinking the wolverine unlimited #1 was preposterously overdue when it came out

 

Indubitably!

 

You know, it's actually a good thing they waited so long Anderson the character develop because that series and the whole 'Patch' thing was just dreadful. The character was definitely hot in spite of and not because of that series because that was some stinky fromage

 

 

hm

 

...are you drunk?

 

Autocorrect lol

 

Autocorrect drank your milkshake. ;)

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Rip

Rip

Posted
Posted (edited)
[

 

And wasn't your whole argument that Wolverine wasn't that popular until LATE 80s? )

 

My argument is that Wolverine was not a superstar until 1986-up.

 

Was he very popular? Yes, of course.

 

But...and this is a key that many want to diminish, but it speaks volumes: he wasn't popular enough to get his own series. Marvel did not think he could carry his own series, when they thought dozens of others could.

 

He was simply not considered a "solo" character, and could not be a superstar in his own right because of it. He was part of a team. An integral part of the team, yes. But part of a team nonetheless. Just like Sue, Johnny, and Reed didn't have their own series, but the Thing did, because Marvel believed that the Thing was the most popular character on the team (which was proven correct, by virtue of him carrying his own series for 136 consecutive issues.)

 

He appeared high on fan award polls, yes. But it has to be taken into account that those poll results are from people who were very big comic fans to begin with, and who cared enough to respond. They are not scientific. That doesn't mean they have no value...of course not. But they are not scientific, and they are most decidedly skewed towards people who were already huge fans to begin with.

 

If you had simply said Wolverine was not a superstar until 1986, I'm not sure I would have entered the debate. I would have disagreed but would have likely not entered a prolonged debate..

 

But since we have some more parameters of the debate I added a quote and a link.

Wolverine was not a superstar until 1986-up and....

"I think it's safe to say that Wolverine was NOT *THE* big draw for the X-Men until the late 80's (generally, 1986 and beyond), and that it was fairly equally spread up until then. "

See most Significant X-Men thread.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7637525&fpart=6

 

That's the thread that really started the debate. You were claiming that Wolverine wasn't even the most popular X-men. Your above quote makes it look like you are moving the goalposts.

 

Do you know why Wolverine didn't get his own series? Do you have any information to support your claim that "Marvel did not think he could carry his own series until 1988" other than simply not having one?

 

And if Marvel believed this, what facts can you bring to the table that supported Marvels supposed belief? Polling? Mothers against Wolverine?

 

Why did the series wait until late 1988 when you claim he was a superstar around the start of 1986.

 

 

 

You can't argue it both ways. Wolverine didn't get his own series until 1988. Marvel's focus on new series in 1986 was CLEARLY the New Universe, and very little new ongoing series came out in the 1986-1987 period, outside of Star and the New U.

 

I stand by my statements. We can agree to disagree. I'm tired of the debate, really. Too much hostility. I'm open to discussion as long as anyone wishes, but not confrontation.

 

Both ways? I'm trying to understand your logic and see the supporting information.

 

So you are telling me, (according to you) Marvel would rather wait on Wolverine and instead go with Star, and New Universe, a complete gamble that failed?

(And yes I'm sure you could debate the degree of failure for 50 pages)

 

 

Is this your reasonable reply to all of the above?

You DO realize its OK to say you are wrong on the internet. I won't think any less of you.

 

 

 

Yes, both ways. You can't say on the one hand "so, you're saying Wolvie wasn't popular at all in the early 80's" and on the other "so, you're saying Wolvie was a superstar by 1986, so why didn't get get a series until 1988?" The answer, as always, is between those two extremes.

 

And Wolverine DID have his own title by 1986...it just happened to be called "The Uncanny X-Men." But the focus for the title clearly changed to become "Wolverine: Occasionally Guest Starring The Other X-Men."

 

I am not going to debate it with you for 50 more pages or 1 more page. I've presented the information, and it's clear: Wolverine was popular in the early 80's. However, he was among a team of equals, that team being the X-Men. He was thought of as a supporting character by many, demonstrated by the Eagle awards you cited. He was neither *THE* X-Man, nor was he a superstar at this point. This is the period from 1980-1983.

 

To suggest that Marvel didn't give him his own series because they didn't want to "overexpose him", when Spidey had 4, the Thing had 2, and there are literally hundreds of other characters that Marvel believed could sustain their own titles in the meantime, makes little sense. They were Marvel. They were in business to make money. If they thought Wolverine was as popular as you claim, he would have had a series. This is a company, after all, that gave the Punisher a mini-series in the fall of 1985...and by the spring of 1987, a year and a half later, gave him a regular one. But, a year and a half after Wolvie's mini, late 1983, there was....nothing. And you folks arguing that he was the hottest thing since sliced bread have no answer for that.

 

If you want to cite two fan polls, and various pieces of ad art, as "proof beyond a reasonable doubt", then there's no point at which we can reach consensus, and we are simply talking in circles. Talking in circles doesn't achieve anything.

 

If you need to believe I'm wrong, by all means, feel free. When you're discussing something that ultimately boils down to opinion, which is never an issue of right or wrong to begin with, and you have to insist I admit I'm wrong, there's nothing more to discuss.

 

:shrug:

 

 

I never said "so, you're saying Wolvie wasn't popular at all in the early 80's"

That was never my position. That's called a strawman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

2nd paragraph. I do not understand the logic here? Why didn't Wolverine get his title earlier if he was popular in 1986 according to you?

You claimed "They were in business to make money."

But I have another question, was his 1982 series popular, and did it make money?

 

3rd paragraph, Winning the most popular supporting character still refutes your claim about most popular X-Men.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7637525&fpart=6

If Wolverine wins most popular supporting character and most popular character it doesn't mean he is a less popular X-Men or character. And why are we only talking about 1980-83 now?

 

If your position is the newly defined "Superstar" status shown above what stops you from retreating to any intangible requirement you now deem the standard of what you call a Superstar.

 

The 4rd paragraph is another restating of your personal Incredulity and a strawman .

Where did I suggest anything about Marvel not wanting to "overexpose him". (shrug)

 

The polls makes it clear that he was the most popular X-Men which confirms my memory and many others here. Wolverine was not only the most popular X-Men, but clearly one of the most popular Characters starting in 1978 to 1986. You have not presented a strong competing scenario.

 

I keep asking for something factual within Marvel rather than your own Incredulity.

Do you have any data, links, or interviews showing Marvel's position on delaying a Wolverine running series. Or are you just guessing as to Marvels actions?

What did Shooter say? What did Claremont say? Did you check?

 

 

Edited by Rip
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Rip

Rip

Posted
Posted (edited)

Speaking of Claremont this got me looking for some links.

So far I can add this. Anything else people can add regarding Marvels beliefs might help us figure this out.

 

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/showarticle.asp?fldAuto=2968

 

In 1988, Wolverine received his own ongoing series while still appearing in Uncanny X-Men. "I'm not surprised (Wolverine) became so popular because he is a really cool guy," former X-Men artist John Byrne told Back Issue #4. "I wish he hadn't gotten his own series. I think he's kind of like a lot of Marvel characters I always think of the Vision, who's another really cool character, but who's mostly cool because he's in a group of people who aren't like him. And Wolverine is the same he's in a group of people who aren't like him, and therefore he's really cool. But if you take him out of that environment, then there's no checks, no balances, nothing for him to bounce off. Then you just have a homicidal maniac running around killing people."

 

"If I'd had my way, there would have been no ongoing series at all, but instead an annual mini-series with a defined beginning, middle and end," X-Men writer Chris Claremont agreed to Berserkher.com. "The problem with an ongoing title is that you must provide perpetual grist for the mill. With a solo character, it's only a matter of time before the temptation becomes irresistible to strip-mine those aspects of his history and character which make him so interesting and mysterious in the first place."

 

"A retailer recently told me, "If the audience wants 25 Wolverine series, give them 25 Wolverine series. Stuff the product down their throat like a goose, until they pop,"" Claremont recalled in Wizard: X-Men Turn Thirty. "This doesn't work because to me I wanted to keep the work vital, I wanted to keep the creators interested and I wanted to keep the audience interested, but also I wanted to keep as much of the structural integrity of the canon as possible. This isn't possible when you have Wolverine appearing regularly in X-Men, his own series and Marvel Comics Presents, plus guest-starring in Secret Defenders, whatever. I mean, for a guy who is fundamentally a loner, he gets around."

 

Edited by Rip
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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Next time, just mannup and admit when you're wrong.

 

Hell will freeze over first.*

 

 

 

*Just a statement of fact. Nothing personal RMA :foryou:

 

That's a load of horse manure. I misread something earlier in this very thread. I was corrected by Bronty, and I acknowledged it.

 

It is crass and illegitimate to make this claim.

 

...and how does anyone "admit they're wrong" about a subject concerning opinion...?

 

Some of the stuff that gets tossed around here is just amazing. Just absolutely mind-boggling how partisan some of you are.

 

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THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted
Next time, just mannup and admit when you're wrong.

 

Hell will freeze over first.*

 

 

 

*Just a statement of fact. Nothing personal RMA :foryou:

 

That's a load of horse manure. I misread something earlier in this very thread. I was corrected by Bronty, and I acknowledged it.

 

It is crass and illegitimate to make this claim.

 

...and how does anyone "admit they're wrong" about a subject concerning opinion...?

 

Some of the stuff that gets tossed around here is just amazing. Just absolutely mind-boggling how partisan some of you are.

 

I'm not going to argue with you. I retract my statement.

 

I was wrong.

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
(snip)

 

 

Agree to disagree. Not going to have this discussion anymore, because you and others can't do it without making it personal. Nothing I say will mean anything, because you are only interested in confirming your opinion, not searching for the truth. And you can say the same about me, so why waste our time?

 

:foryou:

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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Next time, just mannup and admit when you're wrong.

 

Hell will freeze over first.*

 

 

 

*Just a statement of fact. Nothing personal RMA :foryou:

 

That's a load of horse manure. I misread something earlier in this very thread. I was corrected by Bronty, and I acknowledged it.

 

It is crass and illegitimate to make this claim.

 

...and how does anyone "admit they're wrong" about a subject concerning opinion...?

 

Some of the stuff that gets tossed around here is just amazing. Just absolutely mind-boggling how partisan some of you are.

 

I'm not going to argue with you. I retract my statement.

 

I was wrong.

 

Why not delete it, then, and the subsequent followup?

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