Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[originalisbest]

If one of those books came to me to grade...I would immediately think trim job

 

I don't grade thousands of books each week like they do but I can't imagine the significant shrinkage on these books wouldn't cause some question.

 

As I posted earlier and others have stated...minor shrinking can occur normally but seeing this type of significant shrinkage is alarming and should be taken into consideration for the grade.

 

Suspecting something and proving something are two different worlds entirely, but in your descriptions of determining what has happened to these books, I see no distinction between those two worlds.

 

Exactly how many sixteenths of an inch to you is "minor" shrinkage and how many sixteenths is "significant" shrinkage, and either way, how can you possibly distinguish that ANY shrinkage is caused by pressing as opposed to a book having been stored in an exceptionately humid attic in Florida?

 

I think Mark1, and others who hold this view, have their sights set on tarring with the "undesirable" brush any and all books that have this appearance, regardless of their history, known or not.

[originalisbest]

I just want to say that I was heckled openly and heavily by a few big name dealers (who are reading these threads) a few months ago when I suggested that Marvel covers shrink over time horizontally but not vertically (as an explanation for the overhang on the top and bottom edges).

 

Thank you phantom presser for vindicating me!

 

 

 

! Roy.

[VintageComics]

I think Mark1, and others who hold this view, have their sights set on tarring with the "undesirable" brush any and all books that have this appearance, regardless of their history, known or not.

 

Or they are just not versed in all the possibilities. As I said, it looks like a trim job at first glance but not upon close inspection.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I just want to say that I was heckled openly and heavily by a few big name dealers (who are reading these threads) a few months ago when I suggested that Marvel covers shrink over time horizontally but not vertically (as an explanation for the overhang on the top and bottom edges).

 

Do the covers shrink, or do the interiors expand? I forget. I was thinking it was the latter, but my memory may be off.

[originalisbest]

I maintain this shrinkage wasn't intended, and given many presses before that don't tend to exhibit it, I think it will be avoided in the future if possible.

 

While I want to agree with you, I think this will still happen. Here's why:

'Normal' pressing, the good kind, with normal temperatures and little or no humidity added will not see these facejob results. I suspect the problem happens when trying to squeeze an already pressed high grade into a uber high grade, 9.4 to 9.6, etc. Trying to squeeze out that one little crease.

As long as guys like Doug are asking pressers to get me that bump no matter what, this may happen again. We just need some sanity and integrity back in the hobby.

 

Perhaps your suspicions are correct, BUT it's a guess at best -- the only person(s) who know for certain are the ones who pressed it and what they did to get these there.

 

I've never personally pressed a book, so I wouldn't know how much/little/no humidity is part of the process for sure, but to say that with normal pressing, little to no humidity is the norm, I don't know if that's correct. Of course Joe or Matt could clear that up.

 

Regarding the pressing, I don't know anything about the details either.

Don't know the norm for humidity. My point was the press causing the facejobs were above and beyond a 'normal' press.

 

I think that sounds reasonable, that probably these books all got a bit of shrinkage in an effort to really, really max them out -- hopefully, a lesson learned for the presser -- I don't think negligible grade tweaks were worth all the bad press.

[originalisbest]

I think Mark1, and others who hold this view, have their sights set on tarring with the "undesirable" brush any and all books that have this appearance, regardless of their history, known or not.

 

Or they are just not versed in all the possibilities. As I said, it looks like a trim job at first glance but not upon close inspection.

 

 

That's why I think the before and after scans comparison-ability is so key to this group of books. On an individual basis, without prior knowledge of the book, there might not be the hue and cry.

[originalisbest]

I just want to say that I was heckled openly and heavily by a few big name dealers (who are reading these threads) a few months ago when I suggested that Marvel covers shrink over time horizontally but not vertically (as an explanation for the overhang on the top and bottom edges).

 

Do the covers shrink, or do the interiors expand? I forget. I was thinking it was the latter, but my memory may be off.

 

Covers shrink.

[VintageComics]

I just want to say that I was heckled openly and heavily by a few big name dealers (who are reading these threads) a few months ago when I suggested that Marvel covers shrink over time horizontally but not vertically (as an explanation for the overhang on the top and bottom edges).

 

Do the covers shrink, or do the interiors expand? I forget. I was thinking it was the latter, but my memory may be off.

 

I would have thought by now after reading this thread that it was obvious that the covers shrank. This pressing process seems to speed up or amplify what happens over time in nature (no, I'm not trying to be an apologist for this sort of pressing - just stating a fact).

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I just want to say that I was heckled openly and heavily by a few big name dealers (who are reading these threads) a few months ago when I suggested that Marvel covers shrink over time horizontally but not vertically (as an explanation for the overhang on the top and bottom edges).

 

Do the covers shrink, or do the interiors expand? I forget. I was thinking it was the latter, but my memory may be off.

 

Per Matt Nelson...

'What you’re seeing here is a result of the cover shrinking from exposure to humidity, and happens most often on early Silver Age Marvels because they were printed so poorly. The sides of the cover can shrink, although the top and bottom covers will not. '

[MrBedrock]

I just want to say that I was heckled openly and heavily by a few big name dealers (who are reading these threads) a few months ago when I suggested that Marvel covers shrink over time horizontally but not vertically (as an explanation for the overhang on the top and bottom edges).

 

Thank you phantom presser for vindicating me!

 

 

I apologize...

 

 

 

...but my farts do not.

[Mark 1]

If one of those books came to me to grade...I would immediately think trim job

 

I don't grade thousands of books each week like they do but I can't imagine the significant shrinkage on these books wouldn't cause some question.

 

As I posted earlier and others have stated...minor shrinking can occur normally but seeing this type of significant shrinkage is alarming and should be taken into consideration for the grade.

 

Suspecting something and proving something are two different worlds entirely, but in your descriptions of determining what has happened to these books, I see no distinction between those two worlds.

 

Exactly how many sixteenths of an inch to you is "minor" shrinkage and how many sixteenths is "significant" shrinkage, and either way, how can you possibly distinguish that ANY shrinkage is caused by pressing as opposed to a book having been stored in an exceptionately humid attic in Florida?

 

I definitely see your point. Having looked at so many SA books myself I think it would be easy to see that the pages are exposed way more than typical SA books. Comparing these pedigree books to my own books proves that something is seriously wrong with the books.

 

It just jumps at you as a problem. At least it does to me.

[Bookery]

This article is about paper production, but it's possible some of the same effects can be reproduced later, as has been stated...

 

What can SP3_4 do?

Steve I'Anson, www.ZioSteve.co.uk.

 

The Profile of CD Shrinkage on Paper Machines

 

Paper and board experience dimensional changes as they are transformed, on the paper machine, from a dilute suspension of fibres and minerals into the end product. Overall width is generally reduced during pressing and drying operations, with the edges experiencing more narrowing than the middle. Perhaps surprisingly, the most modern, highest speed paper machines tend to demonstrate the biggest middle-to-edge differences, although total CD (cross-machine direction) shrinkage is low. It is also well known that the strength properties of paper and board can vary by a significant percentage between middle and edge. It has been suggested that the extreme values of paper properties which can occur at the edges of the machine can lead to problems of dimensional stability and runnability on high-speed, high quality, multi-colour offset printing presses, but this is certainly not always the case. It is true, however, that maximising the reeled-up sheet width (even where gains are measured in millimetres) can lead to additional saleable paper being available and substantial economic benefits. It is clear that there is much to be gained from a better understanding of the details of CD shrinkage profiles for both of the above reasons.

 

 

[Davenport]

This article is about paper production, but it's possible some of the same effects can be reproduced later, as has been stated...

 

What can SP3_4 do?

Steve I'Anson, www.ZioSteve.co.uk.

 

The Profile of CD Shrinkage on Paper Machines

Handbook of Physical Testing of Paper: Volume 1, Second Edition may mirror the same thing, if it applies to humidified pulp papers.

[in relation to humidity] "...that as paper dries, each fiber is subject up to 30% transverse shrinkage, but only 1-2% longitudinal shrinkage."

[originalisbest]

This article is about paper production, but it's possible some of the same effects can be reproduced later, as has been stated...

 

What can SP3_4 do?

Steve I'Anson, www.ZioSteve.co.uk.

 

The Profile of CD Shrinkage on Paper Machines

Handbook of Physical Testing of Paper: Volume 1, Second Edition may mirror the same thing, if it applies to humidified pulp papers.

[in relation to humidity] "...that as paper dries, each fiber is subject up to 30% transverse shrinkage, but only 1-2% longitudinal shrinkage."

 

These posts from Davenport and Bookery definitely give clarity to the shrinkage issue and how it came to be! Interesting, educational stuff. Thanks.

[zuckuss2003]

This article is about paper production, but it's possible some of the same effects can be reproduced later, as has been stated...

 

What can SP3_4 do?

Steve I'Anson, www.ZioSteve.co.uk.

 

The Profile of CD Shrinkage on Paper Machines

Handbook of Physical Testing of Paper: Volume 1, Second Edition may mirror the same thing, if it applies to humidified pulp papers.

[in relation to humidity] "...that as paper dries, each fiber is subject up to 30% transverse shrinkage, but only 1-2% longitudinal shrinkage."

 

These posts from Davenport and Bookery definitely give clarity to the shrinkage issue and how it came to be! Interesting, educational stuff. Thanks.

 

More clarity around the Costanza shrinkage issue:

[VintageComics]

This article is about paper production, but it's possible some of the same effects can be reproduced later, as has been stated...

 

What can SP3_4 do?

Steve I'Anson, www.ZioSteve.co.uk.

 

The Profile of CD Shrinkage on Paper Machines

Handbook of Physical Testing of Paper: Volume 1, Second Edition may mirror the same thing, if it applies to humidified pulp papers.

[in relation to humidity] "...that as paper dries, each fiber is subject up to 30% transverse shrinkage, but only 1-2% longitudinal shrinkage."

 

These posts from Davenport and Bookery definitely give clarity to the shrinkage issue and how it came to be! Interesting, educational stuff. Thanks.

 

More clarity around the Costanza shrinkage issue:

 

I ain't clinking on that link...

[Davenport]

I'm wondering now if the phenomenon is caused from not disassembling the book for its treatment.

That at higher levels of humidifying, temp and pressure maybe a cover needs to regain ambient equilibrium slowly over time, under weights, to curtail shrinkage.

That if you just 'hit it and quit it' intact, a book's cover might shrink like crazy.

[Gotham Kid]

I would like to personally thank the OP for bringing up this thread.

 

I now have yet one more detail I will be attentive to when looking at books intended to be purchased.

 

I picked up a book from Pedigree's auction and thankfully it wasn't any of the Cole Schave books.

 

 

 

[slym2none]

Life's too short to be bothered by any aspect of funnybooks in slabs.

We can tell!

 

 

 

 

-slym

[originalisbest]

I'm wondering now if the phenomenon is caused from not disassembling the book for its treatment.

That at higher levels of humidifying, temp and pressure maybe a cover needs to regain ambient equilibrium slowly over time, under weights, to curtail shrinkage.

That if you just 'hit it and quit it' intact, a book's cover might shrink like crazy.

 

Maybe so, when hit as hard as the shrinkers were. I'd prefer a book pressed less hard, and not disassembled. As a general rule I'd think that was the norm, unless there were weird folds or tears that disassembly would be required to fix.